Bible Study Obidiah vs. America

[th1b.taylor]

Oba 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah concerning Edom: We have heard tidings from Jehovah, and an ambassador is sent among the nations, saying, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

Oba 1:2 Behold, I have made thee small among the nations: thou art greatly despised.

Oba 1:3 The pride of thy heart hath deceived thee, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?

Oba 1:4 Though thou mount on high as the eagle, and though thy nest be set among the stars, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.

Oba 1:5 If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night (how art thou cut off!), would they not steal only till they had enough? if grape-gatherers came to thee, would they not leave some gleaning grapes?

Oba 1:6 How are the things of Esau searched! how are his hidden treasures sought out!

Oba 1:7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee on thy way, even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread lay a snare under thee: there is no understanding in him.

Oba 1:8 Shall I not in that day, saith Jehovah, destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?

Oba 1:9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one may be cut off from the mount of Esau by slaughter.

Oba 1:10 For the violence done to thy brother Jacob, shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

Oba 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that strangers carried away his substance, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.

Oba 1:12 But look not thou on the day of thy brother in the day of his disaster, and rejoice not over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither speak proudly in the day of distress.

Oba 1:13 Enter not into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, look not thou on their affliction in the day of their calamity, neither lay ye hands on their substance in the day of their calamity.

Oba 1:14 And stand thou not in the crossway, to cut off those of his that escape; and deliver not up those of his that remain in the day of distress.

Oba 1:15 For the day of Jehovah is near upon all the nations: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee; thy dealing shall return upon thine own head.

Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the nations drink continually; yea, they shall drink, and swallow down, and shall be as though they had not been.

Oba 1:17 But in mount Zion there shall be those that escape, and it shall be holy; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

Oba 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall burn among them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining to the house of Esau; for Jehovah hath spoken it.

Oba 1:19 And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the lowland the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field of Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.

Oba 1:20 And the captives of this host of the children of Israel, that are among the Canaanites, shall possess even unto Zarephath; and the captives of Jerusalem, that are in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the South.

Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be Jehovah's.

[ASV]

 

[th1b.taylor]

Oba 1:1 The vision of Obadiah...
[ASV]

Oba 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah concerning Edom: We have heard tidings from Jehovah, and an ambassador is sent among the nations, saying, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

Oba 1:2 Behold, I have made thee small among the nations: thou art greatly despised.

Oba 1:3 The pride of thy heart hath deceived thee, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground? [ASV]


I searched the web trying to find the paperback copy of Church's study of Obidiah but was not successful. That is likely best anyway because we are called to submit our entire lives to the service of God anyway. (Psalm 119:105-112) But this subject is not about a successful Christian Life but rather this a question of can this recounting account of the fall of Edom be prophecy for the end of the United States?



Obidiah appears to have lived around 850 years before the Birth of Jesus and thee kings of Edom are note to begin in about 1400bc. It seems that somewhere between that five hundred and fifty year span Edom ran it's course and ended. This makes it easy for people that view the Bible as the work of, more or less, forty authors to discount the Book of Obidiah as being of no import for today.



Viewing all of the Scriptures as being of one author, God, dictated to forty scribes, a.k.a. secretaries, changes the entire view of everything. It's my experience that the prophetic speaking of God is almost never singular in it's later fulfilling. We can easily view the writing of Obidiah as a simple and short history of Edom and let it go right there. But for the weird, like myself, that enjoy history and watching people, nothing is that simple.



Rome, like Edom, was symbolized by an Eagle, nested in a nest (or bed) of stars, as is the United States of America. Many, hearing this will say and have said, in the past twenty plus year, “So what?” Well, these first three verses speak directly to the self centered, arrogant, American Citizen.



We have become so self centered that we expect people, where-ever we go to speak our form of the English language and to honor our customs over theirs... in their nation, on their Home Lands. And we wonder why God has hardened the hearts of the peoples of all the other nations against us?



Verse three is such an accurate description of the American Citizen today. At this moment the United States has been under attack (at war) since before the attack on the USS Cole in October of Two thousand and, yet, the average citizen of the US agrees with the man in the Oval Office that we have not declared war on anyone but the Taliban of Afghanistan and Sadam of Iraq. In our eyes, eyes deceived by God, we, as a nation of fools, forget that Japan brought us into WW II without our consent, prompting Adolf Hitler to also, without our permission, to declare war on us.

 

[Deborah13]

Oba 1:1 Thus said the Lord Jehovah to Edom, A report we have heard from Jehovah, And an ambassador among nations was sent, `Rise, yea, let us rise against her for battle.'
Jer 49:14 A report I have heard from Jehovah, And an ambassador among nations is sent, Gather yourselves and come in against her, And rise ye for battle.
Interesting that Jeremiah has the exact same wording as this first verse. Were they contemporaries?

Oba 1:2 Lo, little I have made thee among nations, Despised art thou exceedingly.

Just a little history about the literal people in this vision, as long as we are here anyway.
The Edomites were the descendents of Esau. They lived in the caverns in the mts. around ancient Petra, in the area of Jordon.
These were Edom's neighbors,
"Compared with the Assyrians, Chaldeans, Egyptians, Syrians, Arabs, and other neighboring nations" Clarke's Commentary
So Edom truly was small compared to these other nations. But they weren't smart enough to know it, it seems. Prideful, arrogant, and took satisfaction in others calamities, especially Israel's. When Israel fell to the Babylonians, they cheered. [Psalms 137]

 

[th1b.taylor]

Oba 1:1 Thus said the Lord Jehovah to Edom, A report we have heard from Jehovah, And an ambassador among nations was sent, `Rise, yea, let us rise against her for battle.'
Jer 49:14 A report I have heard from Jehovah, And an ambassador among nations is sent, Gather yourselves and come in against her, And rise ye for battle.
Interesting that Jeremiah has the exact same wording as this first verse. Were they contemporaries?

Not according to the Bible Hub Timeline, they are about three to three hundred and fifty years separated.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Just a little history about the literal people in this vision, as long as we are here anyway.
The Edomites were the descendents of Esau. They lived in the caverns in the mts. around ancient Petra, in the area of Jordon.
These were Edom's neighbors,
"Compared with the Assyrians, Chaldeans, Egyptians, Syrians, Arabs, and other neighboring nations" Clarke's Commentary
So Edom truly was small compared to these other nations. But they weren't smart enough to know it, it seems. Prideful, arrogant, and took satisfaction in others calamities, especially Israel's. When Israel fell to the Babylonians, they cheered. [Psalms 137]

Good research and great point. My nation, before WW I began changing the peoples thereof, were an humble and submitted people, so much so that we were noted to be "The Christian Nation." That monacker has hung, lifelessly, since the end of WW II.

I would, that Conscription, were reinstated and that instead of having been put up on a shelf somewhere that it had expanded to include every male child born into this nation and that they were required to serve no less than eighteen months living in a third world nation, forced to live on their economy.

Living shoulder to shoulder with any people, dramatically, changes one's perspective, greatly. When I was in Germany for two years, Frankfurt was never far away and neither was any number of small Farmer Villages. Being of German/Irish Farm Stock, I loved the farmers and their culture.
During my time there there was, exactly, one man that, in the Spring, volunteered to put their body inside a wader, climb into the Honey Wagon ad shovel the fertilizer onto the field for the tractor to turn it into the ground. That opens one up to honest conversations that will shock the average person into the real world.

The Europeans have such a love/hate relationship with the United States. They all want, for their children, what the "Americans" have as an inheritance but they despise the arrogant, self centeredness of what all of the South Americans and all of the Central Americans call the Norte Amiricano.

In reality, we do not need to cross any Salt Water to find out how small we have become in the eyes of the world. And I say that because, even the bulk of, the people in the Church have turned their backs on the LORD, their God and as a result, God is making this nation smaller and smaller in the eyes of the world.

and as soon as I say a thing like that, people bow up, will stand up, and declare, "we are the most powerful nation in the world." And I ask, "Are we? What could be the reason and the result of the Most Powerful Nation in the world being defeated by and subjugated to Caliphate that is not even yet?"

Edom was impossible to defeat except God. Persia was impossible to defeat except God. Babylonia was impossible to defeat except God. And then Israel followed by Judah could not be defeated except God turn them over to their enemies... and He did!

The US?

 

[Deborah13]

The US?

We can confidently say that if God chooses for America to fall, it will fall. There is no doubt about that.

Is Obidiah's vision a prophecy about America? That is another story.
Edom was small in wealth and in military strength. They were despised because of the misplaced arrogance and hateful attitude towards those who were suffering, namely the Israelites, who were their cousins.

Not according to the Bible Hub Timeline, they are about three to three hundred and fifty years separated.

So Jeremiah was restating, words from Obadiah's prophecy. Which makes sense, that he would point towards it. When Nebuchadnezzar invaded Judah, the Edomites were allied with the Babylonians. That was in 588-9 BC.

Jer 49:15 For, behold, I have made thee small among the nations, and despised among men.
Jer 49:16 As for thy terribleness, the pride of thy heart hath deceived thee, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.
Jer 49:17 And Edom shall become an astonishment: every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.

 

[th1b.taylor]

We can confidently say that if God chooses for America to fall, it will fall. There is no doubt about that.

Is Obidiah's vision a prophecy about America? That is another story.
Edom was small in wealth and in military strength. They were despised because of the misplaced arrogance and hateful attitude towards those who were suffering, namely the Israelites, who were their cousins.

All you say of Edom is where the US is today, right now. Obama is reducing our Armed Services by Pink Slipping the most experienced of the Upper and the Mid-Level Personnel. (not an opinion but info gathered from FNC news reports in the recent past.) As you point out in your post about Nebby there is nothing uncommon about God's prophetic sayings being fulfilled over and over.

When I first did a study, guided by Church's Paperback there was no mention of Babylon and the Babylonian capture of Israel. I generally think of this prophecy being fulfilled three times, and I'm not all that sure Israel has ever been, nationally, identified by an Eagle in a nest of stars.

You might be correct but I hesitate going there because I do not feel any leading of the Holy Spirit. In Genesis 36:8 we see "So Esau settled in the hill country of Seir. (Esau is Edom.)" When we study the Birth of Esau and Jacob we learn that, for good reason, there was great tension between them. That being true, when Israel (Jacob) returned with two wives, children, servants, herds and tents, they made peace between themselves. As I say, I hesitate to go there.

So Jeremiah was restating, words from Obadiah's prophecy. Which makes sense, that he would point towards it. When Nebuchadnezzar invaded Judah, the Edomites were allied with the Babylonians. That was in 588-9 BC.

Al-right, but as demonstrated with the recounting of Nebby cruising around on all fours and dining on grass, nothing takes place on this earth without some sort of permission from Father God.

Jer 49:15 For, behold, I have made thee small among the nations, and despised among men.
Jer 49:16 As for thy terribleness, the pride of thy heart hath deceived thee, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.
Jer 49:17 And Edom shall become an astonishment: every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.

In digging a little at the Bible Hub, verses 15 and 16 appears to be thought to be aimed at Dedan and Bosrah. And, as yet, I do not get a clear picture of what they are to Israel. They appear to be son cities of Esau's Edom. this is interesting but I'm not cleanly tying them to Obidiah's utterances.

We haven't gotten past the first three verses and already this is a head wringer.

 

[Deborah13]

nationally, identified by an Eagle in a nest of stars.

I wasn't saying that Israel was identified by an Eagle..........the Edomites (Esau's generations) were cousins to the Israelites (Jacob's generations.)

As I say, I hesitate to go there.

I think in the interest of getting all the information about how this prophecy played out the first time, maybe we can glean information as to what you see, as also being a prophecy about America.

Al-right, but as demonstrated with the recounting of Nebby cruising around on all fours and dining on grass, nothing takes place on this earth without some sort of permission from Father God.

I don't agree, because of this scripture which is repeated twice in Jeremiah. It is God speaking. He's pretty adamant that He didn't have anything to do, with what they did.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

We haven't gotten past the first three verses and already this is a head wringer.

:nod

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't agree, because of this scripture which is repeated twice in Jeremiah. It is God speaking. He's pretty adamant that He didn't have anything to do, with what they did.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

:nod

Okay but the issue that must always be addressed before any conclusion is how does the light of all other scripture shine on this one? These are essential to deal with if one does not believe God is in absolute control;
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be you perfect.

Genesis 18:14
Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Job 42:2
I know that you can do every thing, and that no thought can be withheld from you.

Isaiah 26:4
Trust you in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Acts 26:8
Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunder, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigns.

Revelation 21:22
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Nave's Topical Index

These are no everything but these few either disprove your position or there are unresolved lies in the Bible that God promises to keep pure. Some people get upset because I state that I stand flat footed on the scriptures but, metaphorically, I do. if the scriptures are not true I have nothing to stand on and according to the world will be buried and rot into never having mattered. I know better than that and ever since i did my first study in Job I have known that nothing happens to any man without the permissive will of God.

Most of what goes on in this world is not inside the Perfect Will of God and yet God is in control of everything. That requires that God have the Permissive Will we find in the story of Job. Satan did not do the things he did to Job without God's permission, His Permissive Will. God did no evil to Job but that Job would become the man god needed him to be, God allowed Satan to do evil to Job.

In the same way, in South Vietnam, God did not fill my chopper with more than 300 holes during one Insertion/Extraction Mission, no, but it was permitted for the purpose for building my faith and for the purpose that I would know what I can do, in the power of God. this Permissive Will is almost never understood by Church Members because this knowledge requires one to completely surrender everything to God and to His will and control.

 

[Deborah13]

Permissive Will we find in the story of Job.

I suspected that we had different views on what is Perfect Will and Permissive Will. Maybe we can at least try to understand how we each understand the two. It may affect how we see prophecy, I don't know.

I don't see Job as being Permissive Will, because God actually gave satan the authority to do what he did. God gave him permission to do it. What happened to Job was God's Perfect Will for Job.

That is not the same as what happened in Jeremiah. Jeremiah, I would say is Permissive Will, in other words God didn't stop it, not that He couldn't have, but He didn't. And He didn't command anyone to do it, and it didn't enter His mind/heart to tell them to. No one asked God for permission to do it. They did it all on their own, they sinned. God permitted it.

Maybe it's a matter of semantics? None of these terms are in the Bible and are used differently by different people.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I suspected that we had different views on what is Perfect Will and Permissive Will. Maybe we can at least try to understand how we each understand the two. It may affect how we see prophecy, I don't know.

I don't see Job as being Permissive Will, because God actually gave satan the authority to do what he did. God gave him permission to do it. What happened to Job was God's Perfect Will for Job.

That is not the same as what happened in Jeremiah. Jeremiah, I would say is Permissive Will, in other words God didn't stop it, not that He couldn't have, but He didn't. And He didn't command anyone to do it, and it didn't enter His mind/heart to tell them to. No one asked God for permission to do it. They did it all on their own, they sinned. God permitted it.

Maybe it's a matter of semantics? None of these terms are in the Bible and are used differently by different people.

There lies the crux of our disagreement on this issue. Like you I am and I always have been an extrovert and like all extroverts we want to be heard. I don't know how you were raised in relation to the Bible but I was raised believing that it was a great literary work of fantasy. Because my belief was so deeply seated, no amount of Church could have ever changed my outlook, respective to the Bible.

However being a very thoughtful reader, often accused of being a slow reader, I did understand there were principals, essential to the Christian Faith that the Jewish Faith will never accept. And when God spoke seven words to me as I railed at Him, I opened that door between the Natural World and the Spirit World. And no matter how filthy I tried to become, from November of '67 through 1/1/'90, God kept teaching me, one on one, much as He did with Brother Paul in Asia Minor.

During the ensuing process I have witnessed and have had the privilege of witnessing the results of my errors and the success' of when I put me aside and allow God to use me as a tool in His hand. When I took over and ran on my understanding, I did not always fail but I did, often need to go back to a person to allow God to straighten out the mess I had wrought.

The net result, educationally, is that the exact way we say a thing matters.

You stated that God gave the authority to Satan to wreck Job's life (for a time) but that this was not in God's Permissive Will. You even mention that this authority involved God's permission. Somewhere in that line of thought there appears a major train wreck. Because I am a surrendered slave, servant, Child of the King, I so dislike logic being applied to Spiritual matters but this, just, screams for the same level of logic that applies to Mathematics.

As stated in scripture, Romans 8:29, Ephesians 1:4 & 1 Peter 1:20, God knows before anything happens. God, according to His Word knows what will happen before He creates, making the words He knew what would happen if He created, applicable.

From that standpoint, everything is in God's perfect will, everything. In the case of Job, yes, it was God's perfect Will that Job become the strong man of Faith that the trials produced but without God's Permission (God's Permissive Will) Job would never have known how much faith he possessed, he would never have grown to the point God desired.

The same is true of Bill Taylor. Without the Engine failures, riddled aircraft and the Death of Paul Edgar Hienen, I would have never grown. God is not mean and He will not subject us to anything more than needed for us to grow.

I pray this helps you to see where I am.

 

[Deborah13]

From that standpoint, everything is in God's perfect will, everything.

This scripture is the only one that I can think of that defines God's Perfect Will?
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and (perfect, will of God.)
If something is not good and not acceptable in God's eyes, it is not perfect. Therefore, it cannot be God's Perfect Will.
Sin is never acceptable in God's eyes, therefore sin is not God's Perfect Will.

With Job, there was no sin involved on Job's part and God did not just allow Job to be tried. In fact, satan didn't really even ask permission. There was a discussion and a challenge. Job learned new things about God but Job never sinned, he never did anything to bring those things upon himself.

The Jeremiah scripture is very different. What they did was neither good or acceptable to God, therefore not the Perfect Will of God. But God did permit it.
To me permissive is a freedom term. Sometimes God permits us enough freedom to hang ourselves, figuratively speaking, but it is never His Perfect will that we do that.

But I'm ready to return to Obadiah, if you are. I think I understand well enough where you are coming from. So you have the final say.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Oba 1:4 Though thou mount on high as the eagle, and though thy nest be set among the stars, I will bring thee down from thence, saith Jehovah.

This verse is worthy of close and thoughtful consideration. Esau's Edom, the nation was located on the high places giving them a great tactical advantage. A recent example of this is the battle for Hamburger Hill in Vietnam. We, the American Army, had the helicopters and helicopter gunships, we had the newest weapons, the greater number of combat ready men, A-1 Sky Raiders, F-4s from the Air Force, Marines and the Navy carrying bombs that blew one hundred year old trees, high into the sky, as though they were tooth-picks and created fifteen foot deep, thirty foot wide swimming pools. But with all that superiority American men were slaughtered like they were pigs in a Pig Run.


If you ask any American Citizen, better than nine out of ten times they will tell you there is nobody that can, even, challenge the U.S.A., let alone pull us down from our perch. The strangest part of this, for a man that was taught never to be trapped inside the box of conventional thought is most of us, perhaps ninety-nine percent of the citizenry of the US cannot see a metaphor applied to their lives. Have we, truly become that uneducated and that pompous?


One of my favorite points from the book, about identifying just who the book of Obidiah speaks to is the Eagle. Even in Vietnam, as a flying aviation mechanic, I saw the first man walk on the Moon on a TV inside my tent. I so remember, “The Eagle has landed!” Can you see the symbolism? The first Manned Space Craft to touch down on the Moon, representing the United States of America, descending from it's nest in the Stars was named the Eagle.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This scripture is the only one that I can think of that defines God's Perfect Will?
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and (perfect, will of God.)
If something is not good and not acceptable in God's eyes, it is not perfect. Therefore, it cannot be God's Perfect Will.
Sin is never acceptable in God's eyes, therefore sin is not God's Perfect Will.

I'm not at all sure where you are trying to go with attempting to put God's Perfect Will into a box. I'm also not seeing God involved in any sin.

 

[th1b.taylor]

With Job, there was no sin involved on Job's part and God did not just allow Job to be tried. In fact, satan didn't really even ask permission. There was a discussion and a challenge. Job learned new things about God but Job never sinned, he never did anything to bring those things upon himself.

Agreed but what is your point?

 

[th1b.taylor]

The Jeremiah scripture is very different. What they did was neither good or acceptable to God, therefore not the Perfect Will of God. But God did permit it.
To me permissive is a freedom term. Sometimes God permits us enough freedom to hang ourselves, figuratively speaking, but it is never His Perfect will that we do that.

I'm still in Obidiah but you point is contrary to you own view because freedom to attack the God fearing man, Job, is exactly what took place.

 

[Deborah13]

“The Eagle has landed!” Can you see the symbolism? The first Manned Space Craft to touch down on the Moon, representing the United States of America, descending from it's nest in the Stars was named the Eagle.

I can see the similarity you are making. It's a good one, too.

Agreed but what is your point?

No one stepped outside of God's Will. No one sinned. Therefore, was it good and acceptable to God that these things should happen to Job. God's Perfect Will, per Romans 12:2.

I'm also not seeing God involved in any sin.

?? Neither do I.

 

[th1b.taylor]

No one stepped outside of God's Will. No one sinned. Therefore, was it good and acceptable to God that these things should happen to Job. God's Perfect Will, per Romans 12:2.

If anyone else joins us in this endeavor, I can easily be screamed at for this one but the answer is yes, I agree! One of my favorite and complicated studies was the Book of Job. Job not only did not sin, he prayed with a good degree for his sons and daughters that they would never sin. But as I studied Job I noticed one thing that without the leading of the Holy spirit I would have, likely, never seen.

Not once have I ever seen anyone preach on the building of a mighty man of faith in the case of Job. But as I am known to do I take scripture on a, very, personal level and as God knew Job had never sinned (that he had not repented of), he had, as Satan remarked upon, lived a very protected life. Job did not know how strong he was and I speak not of his physical attributes.

In like manner, I had no idea I could ever depend on God before He became real to me and to be receptive to God being anything more than, just, another figurine, I was in need of being tested. Since I converted in '90 there have been long periods where I lived in complete comfort and I must admit, during that time I was not so reliant on God. On the other hand when God gave Satan and the boys permission to trouble me and my family, then I and they grew by leaps and bounds. I perceive the same is true of Job.

 

[Malachi]

...can this recounting account of the fall of Edom be prophecy for the end of the United States?

While there are multiple lessons in Obadiah for the United States, we cannot take Edom to be prophetic of the USA, other than point out certain characteristics common to both. The United States is not found per se in Scripture, but is classified among "the nations". Those nations surrounding the Mediterranean Sea (which include the revived Roman Empire) will certainly feature in the prophetic events of the end times, and America will be involved one way or another, but not prophetically. New York is not Babylon by any stretch.

Here are some common features between Edom and America:
1. Thou art greatly despised (1:2)
2. The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee (1:3)
3. Thence will I bring thee down (from among the stars) (1:4)
4. The men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee (1:7)
5. Thy reward shall return upon thine own head (1:15)

The great sin of Esau/Edom was undying hatred towards Jacob/Israel (1:10-14). The USA as such does not hate Israel (and indeed has stood with Israel since 1948) , but Obama does, and for that Obama will be removed by Divine intervention. He hates Christians and Jews, and supports the Radical Muslim cause. Ancient Edom today is a part of the Arab confederacy against Israel, which will be utterly destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[th1b.taylor]

While there are multiple lessons in Obadiah for the United States, we cannot take Edom to be prophetic of the USA, other than point out certain characteristics common to both. The United States is not found per se in Scripture, but is classified among "the nations". Those nations surrounding the Mediterranean Sea (which include the revived Roman Empire) will certainly feature in the prophetic events of the end times, and America will be involved one way or another, but not prophetically. New York is not Babylon by any stretch.

Here are some common features between Edom and America:
1. Thou art greatly despised (1:2)
2. The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee (1:3)
3. Thence will I bring thee down (from among the stars) (1:4)
4. The men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee (1:7)
5. Thy reward shall return upon thine own head (1:15)

The great sin of Esau/Edom was undying hatred towards Jacob/Israel (1:10-14). The USA as such does not hate Israel (and indeed has stood with Israel since 1948) , but Obama does, and for that Obama will be removed by Divine intervention. He hates Christians and Jews, and supports the Radical Muslim cause. Ancient Edom today is a part of the Arab confederacy against Israel, which will be utterly destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ.

Brother, this subject is in the bible Study forum and there are rules that apply. If you wish to make this point stand from what scripture has to reveal, please do so but just as it says at the front door to these strings, this is not a debate forum. Your post, as it stands is, just not in line with what is being discussed.

Deborah13 and I began this, serious, examination of a study I did about twenty-five years ago by, I believe his first name was Robert and his last name was Church. We are not here to debate, just to discuss. Opinions are matters for debate so as the Mods want it, we will stick to scripture. Had I or deb wanted it to be a debate we would have posted this in a different forum. Thank you for remembering the rules here.