OF AUGUSTINE, FREE WILL, ORIGINAL SIN, GNOSTICISM AND CALVINISM

[Iconoclast]

Incorrect. The Calvinist believes God CHOOSES people for Heaven or Hell before they are born with no chance either way.

Typical caricature and strawman:
Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,
yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( e Act 15:18; f Rom 9:11,13,16,18)
3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his Confession of Faith of 1689 glorious grace;
others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1Ti 5:21; Mat 25:34; h Eph 1:5-6; i Rom 9:22-23; Jude 4)

You assume that because God KNOWS He therefore chooses mixing up foreknowledge by superior ability with active choice.

Wrong view of biblical foreknowledge;
Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,
yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. (

We know a lot of what will happen depending upon circumstance for which we have no responsibility or or choice. A reprobate makes THEMSELVES such. That God knows does not mean he chose.

The fall made reprobates, they love sin.

And no, only Calvinists believe God is sending people to hell with no hope.

Strawman...the gospel is preached and offered to all men when it is preached

The rest of Christendom believes we all have hope in Jesus.

The rest of Christendom are mostly ignorant of truth, or truth suppressor's.

Premise one assumes facts not in evidence. The change to be saved is not something God "gives"

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying,
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

as it is already available to everyman.

everyman does not hear the gospel preached

Only Calvinists insist the reprobate cannot be saved unless God "saves" him ("regenerates") him first.

That is true of every person. The reprobate never becomes saved, that is why they are rejected.

It is only in the calvinism that God has to do it all.

Salvation is of the Lord 100%...Calvinists believe that, as they actually believe what the bible declares.

The rest of Christendom preaches the good news believing all men can choose to repent and believe.

All men cannot. What you preach is a defective message.

Your worldview clouds gives you assumptions that lead you down the garden path where you find the apples and oranges for your amusement.

God is very tolerant. I wondered how He could use, endure, work through, people whose thinking is so far off from the truth (but they are still his) and He showed me how He does this. The word is tolerance but the understanding goes deeper.

A confused thought for sure.

 

[Iconoclast]

Please, somebody tell me what sin I was guilty of in the womb and the instant I came out of the womb! But, please, do consider this before you answer:

20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. Ezekiel 18:20

You sinned in Adam Romans 5:12-14,

 

[Iconoclast]

What is very telling is that NONE of the writings of the church fathers before Augustine had his viewpoint and opposed him as he brought it into the church. Inborn sin nature isn’t there, determined eternity by God isn’t there, and God is blind to our sin isn’t there.

Most of the "church fathers" were unsaved or badly confused.

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually, the elect become the elect on the basis of having faith in God (as opposed to being elected on the basis of works of righteousness).

Election is an act of God before the world was. No one becomes elect in time, They already were elected

Faith in the promise is the condition for being among the elect and Paul made it clear that there is no boast in that. Calvinism says there is.

The God given gift of saving faith is found among all Elect persons.

 

[GodsGrace]

He doesn't drag. He calls.

And he calls through the gospel message, but also through nature and conscience in the absence of the law and the gospel message. And until that happens man has no capacity to be in spiritual relationship with God. The choice to do that comes with the calling of God.

By definition, natural man does not have faith. He can't know for sure those things that he can not see are true. Only through faith can a man have that capacity. And a man can't have and retain that faith until God calls him, delivering to him the testimony through which that faith comes.

Using the biblical word DRAW, it sometimes does mean drag, and at times it means attract.
But I agree with what you've written above.

 

[Iconoclast]

He doesn't drag. He calls.

The word used was of an effectual drawing...it was used of dragging a catch of fish in a net, they were effectually pulled into the boat

And he calls through the gospel message, but also through nature and conscience in the absence of the law and the gospel message. And until that happens man has no capacity to be in spiritual relationship with God. The choice to do that comes with the calling of God.

There is no magical powers, it is God the Holy Spirit using the new heart He gives to enable sinners to welcome truth. Apart from the Spirit , no natural man can welcome truth,

By definition, natural man does not have faith. He can't know for sure those things that he can not see are true. Only through faith can a man have that capacity. And a man can't have and retain that faith until God calls him, delivering to him the testimony through which that faith comes.

This is getting at the truth, just be consistent and you will see it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Please, somebody tell me what sin I was guilty of in the womb and the instant I came out of the womb! But, please, do consider this before you answer:

20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. Ezekiel 18:20

Jesus beared our iniquity, He had no sin .

 

[Fastfredy0]

Please, somebody tell me what sin I was guilty of in the womb and the instant I came out of the womb! But, please, do consider this before you answer:

Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Isaiah 48:8 several more

20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. Ezekiel 18:20

You must consider all scripture and not cherry pick one verse. Then seek an answer that avoids contradiction. Good luck.

The following verses show people bare the iniquity of others.
Parents Action imputed to Children. It is distinctly declared in the aspect of love and hate towards the children of those who love and hate him in Exodus 20:5, and is even more prominently brought to view in Exodus 34:7b visiting (avenging) the iniquity (sin, guilt) of the fathers upon the children and the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations [that is, calling the children to account for the sins of their fathers].” See also Deuteronomy 4:40; 7:7-9; Leviticus 20:5; 26:39; Numbers 14:18 33; Job 21:19; Psalm 89:29, 36; 109:12-16; Isaiah 14:19-22; 65:6, 7; Jeremiah 32:18; Romans 11:28.
... .I could go on

 

[Free]

Men are spiritually dead...a corpse...They cannot do anything spiritual unless and until God enables them.

I have no grief with this.
Man can not be 'spiritual' until God initiates it.
My assertion is God does that for everybody, even if it's only through nature and conscience.
That way everybody is eventually equipped to exercise a freewill decision to choose or reject him.
In this theology God never purposely denies his mercy and grace to someone who would have otherwise been saved if he'd just given them his mercy and grace!

The main problem with this is that Adam and Eve lived in the garden, in perfection, prior to sin, and yet still chose to disobey God. Even if people are "eventually equipped to exercise a freewill decision to choose or reject him," they will still choose sin and darkness apart from an act of God. It seems to me that your argument just pushes things one step back but it ends up still being the same issue.

Edited to add:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

This passage clearly shows that even with God making things known about himself, people still "did not honor him as God or give thanks to him." This supports Jesus's assertion that "people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil" (John 3:19).

All that further supports what I am saying, namely, that it strongly appears that we will not choose to believe the gospel, even if we have "free will," apart from a God first working in us. That, and I don't think our free will is nearly as free as most believe it to be.

 

[Iconoclast]

The main problem with this is that Adam and Eve lived in the garden, in perfection, prior to sin, and yet still chose to disobey God. Even if people are given "free will," they will still choose sin and darkness apart from an act of God. It seems to me that your argument just pushes things one step back but it ends up still being the same issue.

Hello Free,
They were created with an original righteousness, that was untested. Gen 1:31.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Having a self will they were free moral agents with the capacity to disobey which they did. Eccl7:29
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Free... working from back to front; the image bearer doctrine helps me with this. Adam fell from his original righteous, into sin and death and the curse. Who God is making us into to be conformed to the IMAGE of the Son, exceeds Adam's pre fall condition....Eph 4, romans 8, 1cor15. Does this help a bit?

 

[Free]

Hello Free,
They were created with an original righteousness, that was untested. Gen 1:31.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Having a self will they were free moral agents with the capacity to disobey which they did. Eccl7:29
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

I was agreeing with your position. I just quoted it to show Jethro Bodine that I'm not so sure his position agrees with yours as much as he thinks.

 

[Iconoclast]

I was agreeing with your position. I just quoted it to show Jethro Bodine that I'm not so sure his position agrees with yours as much as he thinks.

Thank you for the good interaction and input.

 

[Fastfredy0]

All that further supports what I am saying, namely, that it strongly appears that we will not choose to believe the gospel, even if we have "free will," apart from a God first working in us. That, and I don't think our free will is nearly as free as most believe it to be.

I agree with all you said.

Free Will is completely free in Pelagianian. Semi-pelagianism picks and chooses what people are free to decide so it is harder to know what they mean. Then, there is the difficulty of getting a semi-pelagian / arminian / whatever label they are using to define FREE WILL beyond: "It's a choice".

 

[Fastfredy0]

Who God is making us into to be conformed to the IMAGE of the Son, exceeds Adam's pre fall condition....Eph 4, romans 8, 1cor15. Does this help a bit?

Yeah, from the elect's point of view I suppose in a weird way it is good the Adam sinned. I doubt God would ever honor us with the righteousness of Christ if said righteousness somehow came through a man made of dust.
A shared inheritance with God .... can't beat that.

 

[atpollard]

Paul is careful to say there is no boast in believing. Romans 3:27
So it is impossible to say that having faith is equivalent to meriting justification by works.

You post just leaves me confused. I never said anything about justification by works.
You appear to be refuting a claim that I never made, but giving the benefit of the doubt, could you explain why you offer THE ABOVE response to my statement “Our salvation is not based on any innate merit in us (‘we were smarter, so we believed’).”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

whatever label they are using to define FREE WILL beyond: "It's a choice".

Christianity and it's labels, lol!

We already have a label for freewill: It's called 'freewill'. It's the freedom to exercise one's will. I don't know how that definition affects whether you have it or not. What we are arguing is, in theological matters, when does have a person have it, and when does a person not have it?

Simple observation shows us that sometimes we have it, sometimes we don't. Calvinism has it so you don't even have the freedom to will to go to the bathroom, lol! While some have it so we can go to the moon if we will to do so. Theologically speaking, of course. Obviously, it's somewhere in between, and varies with circumstances.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You post just leaves me confused. I never said anything about justification by works.
You appear to be refuting a claim that I never made, but giving the benefit of the doubt, could you explain why you offer THE ABOVE response to my statement “Our salvation is not based on any innate merit in us (‘we were smarter, so we believed’).”

One has to be justified in order to be saved. The freewill argument has to do with whether the believing that justifies is freely willed by a person in response to the gospel message, or if one's believing is an automatic response to the gospel that God has built into a select chosen few by design beyond the control of their will.

Calvinism says if your believing is something you will to do that makes it a boast of self righteousness and so believing can't be of one's freewill and must be given to a person as a matter of how they were crafted by God. But Paul makes it clear in Romans 3:27 that there is no boast in the way of having faith to be justified, thus removing that argument:


23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

25God presented Him as the atoning sacrificei through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 3:23-28

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The main problem with this is that Adam and Eve lived in the garden, in perfection, prior to sin, and yet still chose to disobey God.

Adam and Eve were blameless, not perfect. They were only perfect in that they had not sinned yet. They were naked, unclothed with the righteousness of God in Christ required to resist the temptations of the enemy. The commandment came ('do not eat') and through the commandment they died. Through it came the knowledge of sin and their eyes were opened to their unclothed condition.

Even if people are "eventually equipped to exercise a freewill decision to choose or reject him," they will still choose sin and darkness apart from an act of God.

A person being "eventually equipped to exercise a freewill decision to choose or reject him" is the act of God that you speak of that makes it possible for that person to even consider receiving the gospel. Without the equipping of the word of faith they will indeed reject the gospel. It's only by God revealing the gospel through the testimony of the Holy Spirit that a person can know that what they can't see is true. And from there they exercise the freedom of will they now have in that moment (by virtue of the word of faith) to receive the gospel or reject it. Most reject it. Many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This passage clearly shows that even with God making things known about himself, people still "did not honor him as God or give thanks to him." This supports Jesus's assertion that "people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil" (John 3:19).

The following chapter show us that he was not suggesting everybody does not honor him as God and give thanks to him when he makes himself known to them.

I submit to you that the very revelation of God in nature that condemns these people (because they rejected it) is the same revelation that saves those who acknowledge it. The ability to freely make that choice for or against the knowledge of God that comes with the revelation is what gives them the freedom of will to do so.

All that further supports what I am saying, namely, that it strongly appears that we will not choose to believe the gospel, even if we have "free will," apart from a God first working in us. That, and I don't think our free will is nearly as free as most believe it to be.

God does first work in us. Through the revelation of himself. It is at that point that we can make an informed and empowered decision to acknowledge him, or not acknowledge him. Our will is freed at that point to choose either way as we desire. If we choose to reject, God eventually hardens you in that decision. He turns you over to a reprobate heart and you lose the freedom of will to receive the gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Isaiah 48:8 several more


You must consider all scripture and not cherry pick one verse. Then seek an answer that avoids contradiction. Good luck.

The following verses show people bare the iniquity of others.
Parents Action imputed to Children. It is distinctly declared in the aspect of love and hate towards the children of those who love and hate him in Exodus 20:5, and is even more prominently brought to view in Exodus 34:7b visiting (avenging) the iniquity (sin, guilt) of the fathers upon the children and the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations [that is, calling the children to account for the sins of their fathers].” See also Deuteronomy 4:40; 7:7-9; Leviticus 20:5; 26:39; Numbers 14:18 33; Job 21:19; Psalm 89:29, 36; 109:12-16; Isaiah 14:19-22; 65:6, 7; Jeremiah 32:18; Romans 11:28.
... .I could go on

No, I understand how the consequences of sin get passed down.

A baby is not born guilty of, for example, the sin of theft if the father or mother steals something. The baby is guilty of the sin of theft when he steals something.