old testament?

[savagesoto]

One of my first major questions when I came back from a period of "backsliding" was about salvation and the way it related to the people in the old testament. All those people couldnt have just gone to Hell forever?

I got alot of "theories" about it from different believers, but it was half a year before I came to think what I do now. So I ask you

If the doctrine of eternal torment is a biblical "fact" why is the old testament virtually silent on the matter, thus meaning the first 2500 years of human existence was veiled from clear knowledge of such a terrible fate?

and please dont say "God said eat of the tree and you shall surely die", because im pretty sure the concept of "death", even spiritual "death" and suffering in a eternal pit of darkness are completly different concepts. If all God had to say about sin was that we would "die" if Adam ate of the tree, when the truth was hed go to hell for all time...then God did not let man know all the punishments that awaited man if he sinned...

and that simply cannot be

 

[follower of Christ]

huh....'virtually' silent....

[quote:yz2szm1y]6.0
Old Testament Evidence
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and
some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2 KJV)

H5769
עלנ/ עול×Â
‛ôlâm
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24 KJV)

http://www.studies.assembly-ministries. ... 78&start=0[/quote:yz2szm1y]
Guess that shoots down this 'virtually silent' nonsense.

 

[samuel]

It seems to me; the understanding of Hell, was pretty well established.

Psalms:9:17: The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalms:16:10: For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalms:18:5: The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psalms:55:15: Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psalms:86:13: For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psalms:116:3: The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psalms:139:8: If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Proverb:5:5: Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Proverb:7:27: Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Proverb:9:18: But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Proverb:15:11: Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Proverb:15:24: The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Proverb:23:14: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Proverb:27:20: Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

 

[savagesoto]

I didnt say there wasnt evidence for Hell, I said there was virtually no OT evidence on it being a eternal torture chamber. Those passages testify to "sheol" a place of the dead, nothing about everlasting torments though.

and as far as the Olam goes, thats not the original intent of the word, otherwise jewish doctrine would TALK about eternal torments. But they never did, and to my knowledge do not today either. Curious thing, huh?

and isaiah 66 says nothing about Hell by the way. In fact I think your totally taking that passage out of context

by the way Sam, you just proved my point that Hell is not forever, you said
"Psalms:16:10: For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell"

if Hell was believed in the OT to be an inversable, locked, chamber of "eternal torments" than how could could the psalmist say that God wouldnt leave him in Hell?

If eternal torment is true, you would think thats the FIRST thing that God would establish in Genesis for all to see and know clearly. Again...he did not. So would we say he was not just in clearly notifing mankind in the punishments that awaited off the bat? God is perfect justice...so that cannot be.

Doesnt make sense does it?

 

[follower of Christ]

and as far as the Olam goes, thats not the original intent of the word, otherwise jewish doctrine would TALK about eternal torments. But they never did, and to my knowledge do not today either. Curious thing, huh?

Its VERY telling that every doctrine against ET ALWAYS comes back to playing this card that 'the word doesnt mean what youve been told'....and thus ALL of our bibles for two millenia have been WRONG...and so GOD was UNABLE to keep His word preserved.
sorry but that is the God *I* worship and love. He DID protect His word and the intents of that word are clear where ET is concerned.

And please. The Jews were so screwed up as far as UNDERSTANDING the scriptures that its HARDLY an argument that because they didnt get the ET point and write about it that it couldnt be true.

Therefore, having such hope, we use great boldness of speech-- and not as Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is removed in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
(2Co 3:12-16 EMTV)

They wouldnt have seen the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the leg....THAT was the problem, they didnt WANT the truth of God and so they were BLINDED to it.
So that they DIDNT write about the TRUTH of ET is irrelevant...not any evidence at all, quite frankly.

 

[follower of Christ]

if Hell was believed in the OT to be an inversable, locked, chamber of "eternal torments" than how could could the psalmist say that God wouldnt leave him in Hell?

Huh...did David actually GO to hell ?

And this passage seems to relate to the 'Holy One', so it is just vague enough that no doctrinal position can be drawn from it concerning ET.

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(Psa 16:10 KJV)

There absolutely IS evidence for ET in the OT...evidence that we take in HARMONY with the NT evidence...

[quote:13ojuq28]6.0
Old Testament Evidence
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and
some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2 KJV)

H5769
עלנ/ עול×Â
‛ôlâm
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24 KJV)

http://www.studies.assembly-ministries. ... 78&start=0[/quote:13ojuq28]

 

[savagesoto]

Well gee, FOC, that would be really great proof if it wasnt a prophecy talking about THE VALLEY OF HIDOM OUTSIDE OF JERUSALEM (Jer. 17:27), otherwise known as gehenna (which was a ever burning garbage dump for criminals. It has nothing to do with Hell or eternal torments.

and your completely ignoring the evidence against ET simply because said passages are "vague". thats the problem, its vagueness is whats so abhorring and stupid. Everything in the OT ESPECIALLY that people use to support ET is EXTREMELY vague. God nor the "prophets" would be "vauge" about such a matter for over 2500 years of human history, it makes utterly no sense, and yet the church at large has bought it without even investigating it. Instead we find the old testament littered with hopes that God has the power to bring someone FROM the state of sheol. 1 Sa 2:6 is an example "The Lord kills and makes alive; He brings down to sheol and brings up".

So no FOC, it is not as written in stone as you claim. And if you werent so biased, maybe you could see that

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes, FRIEND, it IS written in stone because there is a TON of evidence thru the scriptures that paint a VERY clear picture of that ETERNAL place.

That VALLEY is used to EXPLAIN the conditions of ETERNAL flame, poster, because that is something the Hebrews Jesus spoke to could IDENTIFY with.

It is nothing but a complete dodge to claim that because Jesus USED something temporal to EXPLAIN something ETERNAL that the ETERNAL could not exist.
Completely void of understanding.

 

[follower of Christ]

and your completely ignoring the evidence against ET simply because said passages are "vague".

There is no evidence 'against' ET, sorry to say.
There is only ONE harmonious picture in Gods word on the matter thru BOTH the Old testament AND the New.....

The passage that you spoke of that I quoted is vague at best as it relates to ET....on that point I agree. And there are a TON of other relevant passages that ARENT vague in the least on the matter.

 

[follower of Christ]

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.

And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
Simple as that.

 

[SonByAdoption]

Follower of Christ, Samuel and all supposed Christians Please read the Genesis creation and temptation and fall over again. If we are truly followers of Christ than we should not to preach sermons from satan. The first sermon that satan ever told mankind was "If you sin you shall not surely and completely die[cease to exist]"[only half of you will die you have an immortal soul that will live for ever"

But God never gave man an immortal soul. God says "the soul that sins it shall die[cease to exist]. So where are you putting your trust? my fellow followers of Christ,why do you keep preaching sermons from satan? Will satan give you an immortal soul when he doesn't even have one himself? Do you think God sent His holy angels to guard the garden of Eden just to keep mankind away from the tree of life[immortality] Satan knows he's going to die[cease to exist.] Jesus Christ is going to completely anhilate Satan. He's going to burn him up until he's ashes. I pray to God that you supposed followers of Christ will stop following the doctrines of demons and not join Satan and his angels when Jesus Christ rains fire from heaven and burns up all the sinners with eternal and unquenchable fire like He burnt of Sodom and Ghomorah. they are our example. And satan and sinners will be ashes and then Jesus Christ will make the new heaven and the earth for the Believers. And sin will be no more.

If hell was burning for ever and ever than sinners would be blaspheming God in their hearts and blaspheming is a sin therefore that would make God a liar when He promises sin will be no more.

 

[follower of Christ]

Thats a real nice post there SOA....but Im sorry I dont see any actual EVIDENCE there.

I like how you are calling us unbelievers, tho, Maybe Ill report you and see where we end up

SonByAdoption :
Follower of Christ, Samuel and all supposed Christians

 

[savagesoto]

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.

And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
Simple as that.

Oh wow, that proves NOTHING about the orignal or PROPER tenses of those words. If aionios and olam mean eternal all the time I guess Jonah was in the belly of the whale for eternity right? Because thats the very same words used! Oh gee, wait, that cant be right?

Step off your pedestal of "golden knowledge" and rudeness, cuz honestly its tiring and only makes other people want to be rude back (namely me)

 

[follower of Christ]

If hell was burning for ever and ever than sinners would be blaspheming God in their hearts and blaspheming is a sin therefore that would make God a liar when He promises sin will be no more.

God never promised to save the apostate, gent....

 

[follower of Christ]

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.

And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
Simple as that.

Oh wow, that proves NOTHING about the orignal or PROPER tenses of those words.

The TENSE is EXACTLY the same in both cases, poster, as seen in the attachment.
http://pix.web77.org/albums/userpics/10001/MAT25_46.JPG
Can you SHOW us your credentials as a scholar of ancient Koine Greek ?
If not then WE will accept the renderings of men who ARE scholars of the Greek.

If aionios and olam mean eternal all the time I guess Jonah was in the belly of the whale for eternity right? Because thats the very same words used! Oh gee, wait, that cant be right?

provide SCRIPTURE for your assertion, otherwise any statement made is entirely meaningless.

 

[JoJo]

If eternal torment is true, you would think thats the FIRST thing that God would establish in Genesis for all to see and know clearly. Again...he did not.

I think we're wandering into dangerous territory when we try to put God in a box. You would think God would have done this...why didn't God do this...if we, as humans could be such-and-such, then surely God would be... There is much we don't know about God, much He hasn't revealed. When we delve into these gray areas, I think it's important for us to look at what He has revealed through His Son, Jesus. "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers," He said to the Pharisees, "how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)

(yes I'm using KJV now since so many don't like the NIV)

 

[follower of Christ]

Excellent post and points, Jojo.

 

[mutzrein]

If eternal torment is true, you would think thats the FIRST thing that God would establish in Genesis for all to see and know clearly. Again...he did not.

I think we're wandering into dangerous territory when we try to put God in a box. You would think God would have done this...why didn't God do this...if we, as humans could be such-and-such, then surely God would be... There is much we don't know about God, much He hasn't revealed. When we delve into these gray areas, I think it's important for us to look at what He has revealed through His Son, Jesus. "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers," He said to the Pharisees, "how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)

(yes I'm using KJV now since so many don't like the NIV)

Yes I too agree. A very salient point.

 

[JoJo]

lol thanks
Now I'm going to go look up "salient."

 

[mutzrein]

So wadaya think?