Old testiment and your relationship with it.

[Pebbles]

I would like you guys(and gals) to clarify somthing for me what is your position of the old testiment and how you allow it to govern your personal system faith because I've noticed that different members here appear to attach different weight to the words of the old testiment.

Some of you will gladly cite verses of the old testiment to back up opinions or positions, Others intentionally seem to avoid using such verses even if they would hypothetically support their argument.

Of particular note are the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Whitch seem to be half-in half out most of the time.

Jesus had a view on this I am aware.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Can you explain what dose it mean to fufill a biblical law yet not repeal it in any way? I'm uncertain what this means in this context. And how dose that apply to Deuteronomy and Leviticus without honoring the entire book or discarding it entirely. How can only certain verses be obeyed?

I ask because, in my eyes the old testiment is a markedly more... Violent... book than it's later somewhat redacted version.
And of course my own internal ambilivence on the topic of violence + christians is the whole reason I'm drawn here day after day.

 

[jasoncran]

ok one must first understand that god at the time was going to judge the local nations around isreal and lets start there

im sure if brittian or any nation did what the amekelits, amorites and moabites did, you would be ok with some type of intervention.

 

[felix]

What you are actually referring is the old covenant vs new covenant. Testaments are books written during those periods and these books have prophecies, laws, psalms, songs, letters etc.

The reason why old covenant must not be followed can be understood by this simple illustration:

Assume you have a rental contract with a house owner. The contract says, if you break anything in that house, you must inform and repay it immediately and failure to do so will make the contract void and you must vacate. Unfortunately, you broke certain things in that house for which you did not inform and never repaid. You clearly breached the contract and the owner is very angry and makes the contact void. Since the owner happen to go to distant place, he gave the house to his son to manage. The son, seeing that the tenant is poor and cannot repay himself and cannot go elsewhere, paid the damages from his own money and creates a new contract with the tenant so that the tenant can stay. But the new contract says, only to inform the damages to the son and no requirement to pay for it.

So, tell me, which contract should the tenant must follow?
You can also look into Old Covenant – Abomination to God and Old Covenant Vs New Covenant topic links below which speaks more in-depth based on scriptures.

 

[Pizzaguy]

That was a good read, Felix. (I mean your post, haven't read the links below.)

 

[MarbleShooter]

What you are actually referring is the old covenant vs new covenant. Testaments are books written during those periods and these books have prophecies, laws, psalms, songs, letters etc.

The reason why old covenant must not be followed can be understood by this simple illustration:

Assume you have a rental contract with a house owner. The contract says, if you break anything in that house, you must inform and repay it immediately and failure to do so will make the contract void and you must vacate. Unfortunately, you broke certain things in that house for which you did not inform and never repaid. You clearly breached the contract and the owner is very angry and makes the contact void. Since the owner happen to go to distant place, he gave the house to his son to manage. The son, seeing that the tenant is poor and cannot repay himself and cannot go elsewhere, paid the damages from his own money and creates a new contract with the tenant so that the tenant can stay. But the new contract says, only to inform the damages to the son and no requirement to pay for it.

So, tell me, which contract should the tenant must follow?
You can also look into Old Covenant – Abomination to God and Old Covenant Vs New Covenant topic links below which speaks more in-depth based on scriptures.

With the new contract, which laws were removed and which ones stay? What do you inform the son about? The the son still allow you to own slaves and support it? Are certain foods still banned? Are you still to stone certain people?

 

[felix]

With the new contract, which laws were removed and which ones stay? What do you inform the son about? The the son still allow you to own slaves and support it? Are certain foods still banned? Are you still to stone certain people?

Only the laws mentioned in the new covenant is valid and every other law not mentioned in the new covenant but only in old covenant is obsolete. (Heb 8:13) In that He says, "A new [covenant,"] He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Tina]

There are some 613 commandments in the OT and God knows it's impossible for man to remember and keep every one of them, that's why He sent Jesus to make salvation easy for us, although that doesn't mean there are no laws in the NT to keep, just not all of the 613.

 

[felix]

There are some 613 commandments in the OT and God knows it's impossible for man to remember and keep every one of them, that's why He sent Jesus to make salvation easy for us, although that doesn't mean there are no laws in the NT to keep, just not all of the 613.

I don't agree that this is the reason for Jesus to come and die for mankind. The 613 commandments will NEVER give salvation to anyone even in the old testament.

(Gal 2:21) ".. for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain."

The illustration which I gave is just for a newbie or a non christian for easy understanding so that he can know the truth. But, it must never be compared with the actual truth.

 

[modernnihilst]

Wait I'm confused now. Is it 613 commandments or 12 that have to be followed for Christians to gain entrance into Heaven?

The OP states that "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

but Felix states "(Heb 8:13) In that He says, "A new [covenant,"] He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away"

So according to Christianity what one is the correct one?

 

[felix]

Wait I'm confused now. Is it 613 commandments or 12 that have to be followed for Christians to gain entrance into Heaven?

It is neither the 613 nor the 12 but the 1 commandment which Christ said:
(John 13:34) "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

The OP states that "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

but Felix states "(Heb 8:13) In that He says, "A new [covenant,"] He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away"

So according to Christianity what one is the correct one?

According to the old contract, man must die for his sins and iniquities and there is no redemption. You can see throughout the Old testament that certain sins worthy of death must be stoned and there is no atonement.

This is why Christ came as an atonement (Ezek 16:63) to forgive all our sins, took the curse of the law on himself and fulfilled the law to it's very detail. Since, He had fulfilled the law which made the old covenant obsolete, He gave us a new covenant for us to follow.

Christ is born under the law (Gal 4:4) but we are not under the law (Rom 6:14, Gal 5:18, Gal 3:24-25). Since, we are not under the law, we no longer required to follow it.

In the illustration which I mentioned above, the old contract to the house owner says the tenant to pay for all damages but the tenant cannot. So the son paid for all the damages and finishes the old contract. After finishing the old contract, he creates a new one. If you see the illustration, the son did not destroy the contract but finished it by paying from his own money. Hope the illustration helps you to understand this better.

 

[Tina]

It is neither the 613 nor the 12 but the 1 commandment which Christ said:
(John 13:34) "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

You're right about only ONE commandment ... but this isn't the commandment for salvation.

 

[felix]

[/I]
You're right about only ONE commandment ... but this isn't the commandment for salvation.

This IS the ONE commandment which Christ said to follow and gives us Salvation:

When Jesus Christ said the new Commandment in John 13:34, Judas wasn't there (John 13:30) and he is saying to His disciples who already believed in Him (John 13:10). Hence, there is no reason for Christ to insist them to again believe Him.

However, if you see 1John 3:23, the verse explains it all:

(1John 3:23) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

(John 3:16) "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(John 3:18) "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Fedusenko]

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Felix, how can the law be fulfilled yet not have passed away? There is that one contradiction that I can't get around. What am I misunderstanding?

(1John 3:23) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

So the obvious next question is how are we expected to do this? What are the guide lines for loving another?

 

[felix]

Felix, how can the law be fulfilled yet not have passed away? There is that one contradiction that I can't get around. What am I misunderstanding?

Fulfilling the law is different from the law passing away.

(Gal 5:14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

The law will never pass away nor it will become invalid because, they spoken by the living God and His Word will never return void to Him and we are under the curse of the law forever. This is why, Christ became a mediator to fulfill the law for us by becoming a curse so that He can justify us to the Father by grace and not by our works.

So the obvious next question is how are we expected to do this? What are the guide lines for loving another?

(John 15:12-13) "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
(1John 3:16) By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren.

Scripture is very clear on this:The guidelines are very simple in a way that you must love one another in such a way, you must be ready to give your own life for others.

 

[jasoncran]

shesh. the law only applied to isreal. it was for them and them alone. when the messiah came he change the way it was for man to get to god. ere that man had to find a jew and become one.

yes certian things are still listed that offends god.

the law wasnt done away its now written in mans heart.

hebrews speaks of that.

 

[Drew]

Of particular note are the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Whitch seem to be half-in half out most of the time.

Jesus had a view on this I am aware.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

I think this text is hugely misunderstood as asserting that the provisions of the Law of Moses are still in force, since, of course, heaven and earth have yet to be done away with:

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</st1:City>Babylon</ST1:pl was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Law of Moses will remain in force basically to the end of time.

 

[stovebolts]

My take?

The difference between the old and new covenants are that he old was written on stone tablets and the new is written on our hearts. (Jer 31:31) Where it gets complicated is between the law and the ordinances.

Also, like Jason said, the law was only for Israel. Gentiles were not bound to it. Thus what Paul says in Romans 2...

As far as the new covenant being easy... I believe Jesus said that the path was narrow and few found it (Mt. 7:13-14). Also, Jesus concludes what he started in Matthew 5 which is used as the basis of the OP in Matthew 7. Jesus says in Chapter 7, verse 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

and also in verse 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Somebody tell me how hard it is to live in accordance with the way Jesus would have us live from Matthew 5 through chapter 7.

 

[MarbleShooter]

This is why Christianity has broken off into so many different denominations. The Bible isn't clear which rules stay and go. There is no list in the new testament of which rules are still relevant, but there are overtones of certain rules still being relevant. Unless the only sin is to not love Jesus fully beyond everything else ( this includes your own family), then I have to say that its one of the vaguest religions ever. Paul starts listing things that will keep people from inheriting the kingdom of God, but everything he mentions is based on Old law. What basis dose he have to use old law if its fulfilled? If the law is written on our hearts, then why do different cultures values certain morals differently? If its on our hearts, then wouldn't it be impossible for psychopaths to exists? To be honest, this really dosen't sound all that convincing. It sounds like Paul and the other authors of the Bible, took human empathy and group think and claimed that that was God's law on our hearts. The problem is that we are not always aware that when in a group, we tend to follow the majority when it comes to morals, without even realizing it.

 

[Drew]

Paul starts listing things that will keep people from inheriting the kingdom of God, but everything he mentions is based on Old law.

True enough, but it is clear that Paul believes that the Law of Moses, understood as a written code that prescribes behaviour for the Jew is no longer in force. In its place, the believer (Jew or Gentile) has the indwelling Holy Spirit. I see no incoherence at all in Paul:

1. Declaring the old written code has been "retired" (fulfilled);
2. Embracing the same general principles on which the Law was based.

I politely suggest that you see a problem here because you do not have the broader picture, which I will summarily outline below:

The Law of Moses was largely seens as an "ethnic charter" for Jews. Despite what many here will tell you, the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only. When Paul declares the abolition of Moses he is, of course, not asserting that the underlying principles no longer apply. He is, instead, essentially doing two things:

1. Declaring that the Gentile is as much a member of God's family as the Jew (and by abolishing the "Jew only" Law of Moses, this notion is firmly endorsed.

2. Declaring that we no longer need a written code to tell us how to live - we now have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

More later, hopefully.....

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

There have already been 261 of the 613 laws fulfilled by the birth, death and resurrection of Christ and the remaining 352 are still in effect today until this present heaven and earth passes away and need to be followed. Not for the purpose of salvation, faith or grace, but as guidelines God established for us to live by until all be fulfilled.

1. Torah - 6 laws fulfilled (OT fulfilled in the NT)

2. Signs and Symbols - 5 laws fulfilled

3. Times and Seasons - 36 laws fulfilled

4. Sabbatical and Jubilee Years (this one in my opinion should be kept, (especially the release of debts), and parts of it is if you are a farmer it is good to let your land rest a year as it will fertilize itself) - 17 laws fulfilled

5. T'rumah, Tithes and Taxes - 24 laws fulfilled

6. The Temple, the Sanctuary, and Sacred Objects - 30 laws fulfilled

7. Sacrifices and offerings - 102 laws fulfilled

8. Ritual Purity and Impurity - 16 laws fulfilled

9. Lepers and Leprosy - 4 laws fulfilled

10. Nazarites - 10 laws fulfilled

11. War - 16 laws fulfilled

OLD COVENANT – NEW COVENANT

OLD Covenant... II Cor. 3:14 NEW Covenant... II Cor.3:6
FIRST Covenant... Heb. 8:7,9:1 SECOND Covenant... Heb. 8:7,10:1-9
Came by Moses... John 1:17 Came by Christ... Heb. 8:6,9:15
Law of God in STONE... II Cor.3:3 Law of God in HEART... Heb. 10:16
Law of MOSES... Acts 13:38-39 Law of CHRIST... Gal. 6:2
Law of the flesh... Rom. 7:5-6 Law of the SPIRIT... Rom. 8:2
NOT of faith... Gal. 3:2 Law of FAITH... Rom. 3:27
Yoke of BONDAGE... Gal. 5:1 Law of LIBERTY... James 1:25
Law of SIN... Rom. 7:5-6 Law of RIGHTEOUSNESS... Rom. 9:30-31
Law of DEATH... II Cor. 3:7 Law of LIFE... Gal. 3:11, 6:8
Christ removes OLD... Heb. 10:9 Christ enacted the NEW... Heb.10:9
A SHADOW... Col. 2:14-17 The REALITY... Heb. 10:1-18
FULFILLED... Matt. 5:17-18 NOW IN FORCE... Heb. 8:6,10:9
Priesthood CHANGED... Heb. 7:12 UNCHANGEABLE Priesthood... Heb. 7:24
MANY sacrifices... Heb. 9:12-13 ONE sacrifice for sin... Heb. 10:12
IMPERFECT... Heb. 7:19 PERFECT... Heb. 7:19
Blood of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:19 Blood of CHRIST... Matt. 26:28
Circumcision... Ex. 12:48 Uncircumcision... Rom. 4:9-12
WORKS of law... Gal. 3:10 NOT of works but GRACE... Eph. 2:8
REMEMBERS sins... Heb. 10:3 FORGETS sins... Heb. 10:17
YEARLY atonement... Heb. 10:3 PERMANENT atonement... Heb. 10:4
SINFUL priests... Heb. 5:3 SINLESS priest... Heb. 7:26
AARONIC priesthood... Heb. 7:11 MELCHISEDEC priest... Heb. 5:5-10
MAN MADE tabernacle... Heb. 8:5 HEAVENLY tabernacle... Heb. 8:2,11
Out of LEVI... Heb. 7:11 Out of JUDAH... Heb. 7:14
WEAK, UNPROFITABLE... Heb. 7:18 POWER of ENDLESS LIFE... Heb. 7:16
NO inheritance... Rom. 4:13 ETERNAL inheritance... Heb. 9:15
Sacrifice of ANIMALS... Heb. 9:13 Sacrifice of CHRIST... Heb. 9:28
Purified the FLESH... Heb. 8:13 Purged the CONSCIENCE... Heb. 9:14
PRODUCES wrath... Rom. 4:15 SAVES from wrath... Rom. 5:9
Perfected NOTHING... Heb. 7:19 Perfects BELIEVERS... Heb. 10:14
NO MERCY... Heb. 10:28 COMPLETE MERCY... Heb. 8:12
NO justification... Acts 13:39 BELIEVERS justified... Acts 13:39
BRINGS a curse... Gal. 3:10 REDEEMS from curse... Acts 3:13
ABOLISHED... II Cor. 3:13 CONTINUES IN GLORY... II Cor. 3:11
Brought DEATH... II Cor. 3:7 Brought RECONCILIATION... II Cor. 5:18
ISRAEL ONLY... Deut. 4:7-8,5:3 ALL MANKIND Mark 14:24, II Cor. 5:14-19


Gal 3:10 for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 and the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.