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ON THE QUESTION OF JUDAS ISCARIOT

jeremiah1five

 
Member
Before one can come to the knowledge of the truth concerning the question of Judas’s salvation one must first have their understanding of the biblical doctrines which address his salvation in place.

God doesn’t replace in the kingdom of God nor the Body of Christ: He adds.

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:47b.

His Calling:

12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; 14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, 16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. Luke 6:12-16

He named them apostles.

And the Holy Spirit is adamant to letting us know Judas was one of the twelve.

Matt. 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests…

Matt. 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve

Lk. 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Etc.

The Last Supper:

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. Luke 22:19-21

All twelve disciples are with Jesus at the Passover meal.

When Jesus from the cross uttered “Father, forgive them for they no not what they do” He was doing what a High Priest is given to do and that is pray for the people of God and offer sacrifices for the people of God. And the prayer as High Priest was uttered in John 17:9.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Those the Father gave the Son are the objects of His atoning work.

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. John 17:2.

Jesus was not asking the Father to forgive the religious leaders or the Romans who crucified Him, nor those that were present at Hid crucifixion, He was atoning those whom the Father gave Him, those souls whose names are written in the Book of Life before God began creating. It was the Father’s plan, the Son implemented that plan, and the Holy Spirit applies that plan to God’s eternal elect.

The Betrayal:

When I’d ask Christians, what did Judas do that was cause for his betrayal of Jesus they cannot answer because they don’t know. Simply put, Judas’s betrayal was that he revealed the place where Jesus took His disciples.

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. 2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
John 18:1-2.

And this?

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Strong’s defines the word devil as: diabolos (διάβολος, 1228), “an accuser” or “traducer.” It means ‘one who is a false accuser’ or ‘impugns the character of another.’ And here its usage is an adjective, not noun nor personal pronoun. Jesus is merely calling Judas as ‘false accuser.’ And this Judas did when he went to the religious leaders.

The religious leaders knew Judas was a disciple of Jesus and Judas comes to them seeking to turn over his master. In their minds they reason if he could be trusted, was Jesus sending Judas as a means to trap the religious leaders in a plot of His own. But in order to gain their trust Judas begins in this meeting to falsely accuse Jesus to the religious leaders and in this the begin to trust the sincerity of why Judas came to them. In the Jewish religion “false accusation” is a serious violation of the Law.

11 And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. Mark 14:11.

And this:

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Again Strong’s: perdition 684. ἀπώλεια Strong’s Greek #684 from a presumed derivative of <G622> (apollumi); ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal).

‘Ruin’ or ‘loss.’ And the three senses in which it is used are ‘physical,’ ‘spiritual,’ or ‘eternal’ ruin. Jesus’ atonement in which His body and blood are ‘given for you’ cannot mean the ‘eternal’ ruin of Judas nor his ‘spiritual’ ruin for the Holy Spirit has not yet been given. The only sense in which ‘apollumi’ can apply is physical ruin, and this occurred when Judas hung himself and his bowels gushed out at the bottom of the ravine where his hanging took place.

Judas’s Repentance:

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

First, Judas understands his act against Jesus and ‘saw [perceived] he (Jesus) was condemned.’ Then Scripture states Judas repented and ‘brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests’ and he confessed ‘I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood.’ The chief priests say ‘what is that to us? See thou to that.’ Then Judas cast down the thirty pieces of silver in the temple and went out and hanged himself.

Under the Law it states:

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Mischief followed. And the sentence for such mischief that an innocent man die is life for life. But the chief priest was not concerned with addressing Judas’s sin. They in effect told him to ‘see thou to that' (handle it yourself). So Judas went and handled it himself and gave his life under the law for the life of Jesus. What the prescription for Judas’s sin was for the religious leaders with the people in tow was to take him outside the city and stone him. Judas was obeying the Law and went out and gave his life for the life of innocent Jesus. And at this time, they were all still under the Law.

And what of this:

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Well let’s look at this statement. First, Strong defines the word ‘woe’ simply as ‘grief.’ And Judas grieved over his act against Jesus very deeply to the point of death. Secondly, ‘it had been good for that man if he had not been born’ can be understood that had Judas not been born he would not have woe or grief over what he did in betraying Jesus, would not have died under these circumstances, nor would he have betrayed Jesus, would not have died according to the Scripture, there would be no sacrifice, no atonement, and we would all still be in our sin under eternal damnation with no recourse. But according to the plan of God it was determined that someone betray Jesus and that man turned out providentially to be a man who was Jesus’ friend: Judas Iscariot.

49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come?

There are only two people in Scripture that Jesus calls ‘Friend,’ Abraham and Judas.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

There are no Friends of God in hell.

Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

In Isaiah the prophet describes the coming Redeemer as a Suffering Servant and Conquering King, as a Lamb of God and a Lion from the tribe of Judah. Before the cross Jesus was described by John the Baptist as the Lamb of God. This helps date and identify who these twelve apostles are: they are the twelve apostles (including Judas) of the Lamb, and this takes us to pre-cross apostles.


END
 
Occham's Razor warns the thinking person about multiplying explanations unnecessarily. Generally, the greater the explanations that are required to establish a viewpoint, the more suspect it is. I find myself very wary, then, of folks who propose to tell me that God's word is saying exactly the opposite of what a natural, straightforward reading of it would lead me to think and who offer many long, convoluted arguments for their proposition.

In the case of Judas Iscariot, it is the long-held orthodox view that he was eternally damned as a consequence of his betrayal of Christ. But you want to buck this common perspective and say the exact opposite. Interesting.

Simply put, Judas’s betrayal was that he revealed the place where Jesus took His disciples.

There's actually a fair bit the Gospels say about Judas Iscariot:

Matthew 26:14-16 (NASB)
14 Then one of the twelve, named Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests
15 and said, "What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him.
16 From then on he began looking for a good opportunity to betray Jesus.


Judas' betrayal of Jesus began long before he led a mob into Gethsemane to take him. For some time, Judas played the faithful disciple of Jesus, deceiving all but Christ, waiting for an opportune time to deliver him into the hands of his enemies. Judas' sin, then, wasn't merely revealing where Jesus was on the night he was taken captive, but, for money, conspiring with Christ's enemies to harm him, and deceiving his fellow disciples, too. Judas was a traitor, an evil conspirator, greedy and deceitful, in these things revealing a mind and heart completely untouched by Christ's teaching and example. How Judas, then, can be made to be a true disciple of Jesus is a mystery to me.

Matthew 26:20-25 (NASB)
20 Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
21 As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me."
22 Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, "Surely not I, Lord?"
23 And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself."


Here, Judas demonstrated his ease with deception. Copying his fellow disciples, as the circumstance required, Judas feigned ignorance and asked Jesus, "Surely it isn't I, Rabbi?" In response, Jesus made it crystal clear to Judas that he knew Judas' deceitful, traitorous, greedy heart, even warning Judas that, following his wretched course, it would be better if he had not been born. There is nothing of a true disciple in Judas' traitorous conduct.

Matthew 26:47-50 (NASB)
47 While He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, came up accompanied by a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people.
48 Now he who was betraying Him gave them a sign, saying, "Whomever I kiss, He is the one; seize Him."
49 Immediately Judas went to Jesus and said, "Hail, Rabbi!" and kissed Him.
50 And Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you have come for." Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him.


It was, at the time, the common practice of friends to kiss one another in greeting. When Judas kissed Jesus after the manner of a friend, in this spiteful act emphasizing the depth of his betrayal, Jesus acknowledged how profound the betrayal was by calling Judas, "Friend." Jesus was not assuring Judas that their relationship to one another was still intact; Jesus was highlighting how corrupt and deceitful Judas' "kiss of friendship" really was.

Matthew 27:3-5 (NASB)
3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!"
5 And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.


Is this a redeeming act? Did Judas expiate all of his sin by suicide? The Gospels don't say this, or even hint at it. In fact, Judas' conduct here has the hallmarks, not of godly repentance that leads to reconciliation with God, but of guiltiness (aka - remorse) that separates people from Him and makes them want to hide from Him (ie. Adam and Even in Eden). Judas was not atoning for his wickedness but, it seems to me, merely attempting to escape public censure for his traitorous act and deep pangs of guilt and shame.

Luke 6:16 (NASB)
16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.


It seems the Holy Spirit was also keen to make it clear that Judas was a traitor, as well as one of the Twelve...

Luke 22:3-6 (NASB)
3 And Satan entered into Judas who was called Iscariot, belonging to the number of the twelve.
4 And he went away and discussed with the chief priests and officers how he might betray Him to them.
5 They were glad and agreed to give him money.
6 So he consented, and began seeking a good opportunity to betray Him to them apart from the crowd.


Here, I think, is one of the clearest indications that Judas was not one of Christ's, of the Good Shepherd's "sheepfold." As Paul the apostle wrote, "What fellowship does light have with darkness?" Or "what harmony does Christ have with Belial?" "None" is the obvious answer. That Judas was able to be occupied by Satan himself is a clear testament to just how NOT one of Christ's he truly was.

Luke 22:47-48 (NASB)
47 While He was still speaking, behold, a crowd came, and the one called Judas, one of the twelve, was preceding them; and he approached Jesus to kiss Him.
48 But Jesus said to him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"


Here, again, Jesus draws attention to the "kiss of friendship" custom of the time, and how completely opposite to its normal purpose Judas' use of it was. Jesus wasn't trying affirm that he and Judas were still friends, still Master-disciple, but was pointing out the enormous corruption of the purpose of the kiss that Judas gave him.

Continued below.
 
John 6:67-71 (NASB)
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.


In light of the fact that Judas was actually occupied by Satan, Jesus calling him a "devil" here means more than that Judas was merely a "false accuser." In truth, Judas was a literal tool of Satan, acting under Satan's direction in fulfillment of Satan's evil purposes. There is no way I can see for this to be so while Judas remained a genuine disciple of Jesus.

John 12:4-6 (NASB)
4 But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, *said,
5 "Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?"
6 Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.


On this occasion, Judas illustrated both his mercenary frame of mind and, again, his deceitfulness. Making it sound like he had the interests of the poor in mind, he decried Christ's allowing himself to be anointed with costly perfume. In reality, he wanted the proceeds of the perfume for himself and resented losing out on those proceeds. As well, he had been dipping into the "money box," stealing cash for his own use. So, Judas was not only possessed of Satan, deceitful, traitorous and greedy but a thief, also. How such a character can be made out to be a true disciple of Jesus is a wonder to me.

John 13:1-2 (NASB)
1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
2 During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,


John, like Luke, takes pains here to remind readers that Judas was acting as an agent of Satan, not a disciple of Jesus Christ. Obviously, Judas could not have been both at the same time. What fellowship has light with darkness? None.

John 13:10-11 (NASB)
10 Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."


Jesus separates out Judas, not just as his betrayer, but as one who is "not clean." A straightforward reading of this does not lead me to think Judas was a fully-genuine disciple of Christ.

John 13:16-18 (NASB)
16 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.
17 "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.
18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'


Here, again, Jesus separated out Judas from his other disciples as one in direct opposition to him, which, in Jewish culture, no true disciple would ever be toward his Rabbi.

John 18:2-5 (NASB)
2 Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples.
3 Judas then, having received the Roman cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, *came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.


In the end, Judas stood, not with Jesus but with his enemies and, in fact, was leading them in taking Jesus captive. In light of all that is above, the long explanation you've had to make in order to argue against the plain declaration of Scripture concerning Judas seems to me to fall quite flat. As you can see, I haven't had to make long, convoluted arguments in explanation of what the above passages plainly indicate. Taken in a straightforward manner, a natural reading of them leads quite directly and obviously to the view that Judas was not truly of the Twelve and died as one of the vilest characters of all of Scripture, damned, therefore, to eternal hell.
 
John 6:67-71 (NASB)
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.


In light of the fact that Judas was actually occupied by Satan, Jesus calling him a "devil" here means more than that Judas was merely a "false accuser." In truth, Judas was a literal tool of Satan, acting under Satan's direction in fulfillment of Satan's evil purposes. There is no way I can see for this to be so while Judas remained a genuine disciple of Jesus.

John 12:4-6 (NASB)
4 But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, *said,
5 "Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?"
6 Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.


On this occasion, Judas illustrated both his mercenary frame of mind and, again, his deceitfulness. Making it sound like he had the interests of the poor in mind, he decried Christ's allowing himself to be anointed with costly perfume. In reality, he wanted the proceeds of the perfume for himself and resented losing out on those proceeds. As well, he had been dipping into the "money box," stealing cash for his own use. So, Judas was not only possessed of Satan, deceitful, traitorous and greedy but a thief, also. How such a character can be made out to be a true disciple of Jesus is a wonder to me.

John 13:1-2 (NASB)
1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
2 During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,


John, like Luke, takes pains here to remind readers that Judas was acting as an agent of Satan, not a disciple of Jesus Christ. Obviously, Judas could not have been both at the same time. What fellowship has light with darkness? None.

John 13:10-11 (NASB)
10 Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."


Jesus separates out Judas, not just as his betrayer, but as one who is "not clean." A straightforward reading of this does not lead me to think Judas was a fully-genuine disciple of Christ.

John 13:16-18 (NASB)
16 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.
17 "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.
18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'


Here, again, Jesus separated out Judas from his other disciples as one in direct opposition to him, which, in Jewish culture, no true disciple would ever be toward his Rabbi.

John 18:2-5 (NASB)
2 Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples.
3 Judas then, having received the Roman cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, *came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.


In the end, Judas stood, not with Jesus but with his enemies and, in fact, was leading them in taking Jesus captive. In light of all that is above, the long explanation you've had to make in order to argue against the plain declaration of Scripture concerning Judas seems to me to fall quite flat. As you can see, I haven't had to make long, convoluted arguments in explanation of what the above passages plainly indicate. Taken in a straightforward manner, a natural reading of them leads quite directly and obviously to the view that Judas was not truly of the Twelve and died as one of the vilest characters of all of Scripture, damned, therefore, to eternal hell.
(para, “up,” didomi, “to give”), lit., “to give over,” is used either (a) in the sense of delivering a person or thing to be kept by another, to commend,

Your corrupt NASB version has the word 'betray.' I don't see the word 'betray' in the Authorized KJV Bible, but I do see 'deliver' which Vine's correctly defines the word as above.
 
Sins done in ignorance of who Jesus is may be forgiven in the 'age to come'.

Judas knew Jesus claimed to the Messiah, and saw God working miracles proving He is. There is no forgiveness for one so willfully blind. We see that taught in this text:


30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven (ἀφεθήσεται) men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven (ἀφεθήσεται) men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven (ἀφεθήσεται) him ; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven (ἀφεθήσεται) him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:30-32 NKJ).

Understandably men might oppose the "Son of Man" because they do not appreciate Jesus is "God incarnate" and they are guilty of opposing God.

But for those who know God is working in Jesus, there is no forgiveness for opposing the obvious work of God.

Just as blaspheming the Holy Spirit doing the obvious work of God will not be forgiven , either in this age or the age to come, neither will opposing Jesus if you know God did miracles proving Jesus is the Messiah.

No forgiveness for Judas, he opposed Jesus after seeing all the proof He is the Messiah the Son of God, that was proved by God beyond any reasonable doubt.
 
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(para, “up,” didomi, “to give”), lit., “to give over,” is used either (a) in the sense of delivering a person or thing to be kept by another, to commend,

Your corrupt NASB version has the word 'betray.' I don't see the word 'betray' in the Authorized KJV Bible, but I do see 'deliver' which Vine's correctly defines the word as above.
He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
(Jn. 6:71 KJV)
 
John 6:67-71 (NASB)
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 "We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.


In light of the fact that Judas was actually occupied by Satan, Jesus calling him a "devil" here means more than that Judas was merely a "false accuser." In truth, Judas was a literal tool of Satan, acting under Satan's direction in fulfillment of Satan's evil purposes. There is no way I can see for this to be so while Judas remained a genuine disciple of Jesus.

John 12:4-6 (NASB)
4 But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, who was intending to betray Him, *said,
5 "Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?"
6 Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.


On this occasion, Judas illustrated both his mercenary frame of mind and, again, his deceitfulness. Making it sound like he had the interests of the poor in mind, he decried Christ's allowing himself to be anointed with costly perfume. In reality, he wanted the proceeds of the perfume for himself and resented losing out on those proceeds. As well, he had been dipping into the "money box," stealing cash for his own use. So, Judas was not only possessed of Satan, deceitful, traitorous and greedy but a thief, also. How such a character can be made out to be a true disciple of Jesus is a wonder to me.

John 13:1-2 (NASB)
1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.
2 During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,


John, like Luke, takes pains here to remind readers that Judas was acting as an agent of Satan, not a disciple of Jesus Christ. Obviously, Judas could not have been both at the same time. What fellowship has light with darkness? None.

John 13:10-11 (NASB)
10 Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."


Jesus separates out Judas, not just as his betrayer, but as one who is "not clean." A straightforward reading of this does not lead me to think Judas was a fully-genuine disciple of Christ.

John 13:16-18 (NASB)
16 "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.
17 "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.
18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'


Here, again, Jesus separated out Judas from his other disciples as one in direct opposition to him, which, in Jewish culture, no true disciple would ever be toward his Rabbi.

John 18:2-5 (NASB)
2 Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples.
3 Judas then, having received the Roman cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, *came there with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and *said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He *said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.


In the end, Judas stood, not with Jesus but with his enemies and, in fact, was leading them in taking Jesus captive. In light of all that is above, the long explanation you've had to make in order to argue against the plain declaration of Scripture concerning Judas seems to me to fall quite flat. As you can see, I haven't had to make long, convoluted arguments in explanation of what the above passages plainly indicate. Taken in a straightforward manner, a natural reading of them leads quite directly and obviously to the view that Judas was not truly of the Twelve and died as one of the vilest characters of all of Scripture, damned, therefore, to eternal hell.
Well done, I enjoyed that. Woe to Judas. Whatever "lowest hell" Hitler is in, Judas is beneath him.
 
First of all, if I am in trouble I want you as my lawyer.

There are no Friends of God in hell.
One would assume so, but there is no verse saying so.


I think your thesis is: Judas is in heaven/forgiven/saved.

I say Judas is in Hell based on:
John 17:28 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and protected them, and not one of them was lost except [d]the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. AMP
[d] Hebrew idiom for one destined to perish.
 
First of all, if I am in trouble I want you as my lawyer.


One would assume so, but there is no verse saying so.


I think your thesis is: Judas is in heaven/forgiven/saved.

I say Judas is in Hell based on:
John 17:28 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and protected them, and not one of them was lost except [d]the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. AMP
[d] Hebrew idiom for one destined to perish.
Where does it say he is in hell? Where.
 
First of all, if I am in trouble I want you as my lawyer.


One would assume so, but there is no verse saying so.


I think your thesis is: Judas is in heaven/forgiven/saved.

I say Judas is in Hell based on:
John 17:28 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and protected them, and not one of them was lost except [d]the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. AMP
[d] Hebrew idiom for one destined to perish.
For a Baptist and the 1689 seems that’s not your confession
 
It says that here but not in your nasb Matthew passage. Evidence the Nasb changed the word. You should be concerned. If not…

I couldn't find that. In Matthew only three verses have both the words "Judas" and "betr*" and the NASB has "betrayed* just like the KJV


KJV Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
NAS Matthew 10:4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

KJV Matthew 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
NAS Matthew 26:25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" He said to him, "You have said it yourself."

KJV Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
NAS Matthew 27:3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

I prefer the KJV or NKJV because both translated the "Textus Receptus", but sometimes English translations are inaccurate and comparing them with other versions is useful when studying the Bible.

However, your objection was irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent. It had nothing to do with the accuracy of his exegesis. He blew your thesis out of the water and all you could respond with is "the NASB sucks". That's not a cogent argument, nor a rational one.
 
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Yes. Your nasb changes the word deliver I Matthew to betray when the word in Greek has nothing to do with betray. You like a bible version that changes words I am sorry for you.
 
Yes. Your nasb changes the word deliver I Matthew to betray when the word in Greek has nothing to do with betray. You like a bible version that changes words I am sorry for you.
Not my NASB, and where does it do that. Didn't you read my reply to you?
 
Before one can come to the knowledge of the truth concerning the question of Judas’s salvation one must first have their understanding of the biblical doctrines which address his salvation in place.

God doesn’t replace in the kingdom of God nor the Body of Christ: He adds.

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:47b.

His Calling:

12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; 14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, 15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, 16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor. Luke 6:12-16

He named them apostles.

And the Holy Spirit is adamant to letting us know Judas was one of the twelve.

Matt. 26:14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests…

Matt. 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve

Lk. 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Etc.

The Last Supper:

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. Luke 22:19-21

All twelve disciples are with Jesus at the Passover meal.

When Jesus from the cross uttered “Father, forgive them for they no not what they do” He was doing what a High Priest is given to do and that is pray for the people of God and offer sacrifices for the people of God. And the prayer as High Priest was uttered in John 17:9.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Those the Father gave the Son are the objects of His atoning work.

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. John 17:2.

Jesus was not asking the Father to forgive the religious leaders or the Romans who crucified Him, nor those that were present at Hid crucifixion, He was atoning those whom the Father gave Him, those souls whose names are written in the Book of Life before God began creating. It was the Father’s plan, the Son implemented that plan, and the Holy Spirit applies that plan to God’s eternal elect.

The Betrayal:

When I’d ask Christians, what did Judas do that was cause for his betrayal of Jesus they cannot answer because they don’t know. Simply put, Judas’s betrayal was that he revealed the place where Jesus took His disciples.

1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. 2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
John 18:1-2.

And this?

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Strong’s defines the word devil as: diabolos (διάβολος, 1228), “an accuser” or “traducer.” It means ‘one who is a false accuser’ or ‘impugns the character of another.’ And here its usage is an adjective, not noun nor personal pronoun. Jesus is merely calling Judas as ‘false accuser.’ And this Judas did when he went to the religious leaders.

The religious leaders knew Judas was a disciple of Jesus and Judas comes to them seeking to turn over his master. In their minds they reason if he could be trusted, was Jesus sending Judas as a means to trap the religious leaders in a plot of His own. But in order to gain their trust Judas begins in this meeting to falsely accuse Jesus to the religious leaders and in this the begin to trust the sincerity of why Judas came to them. In the Jewish religion “false accusation” is a serious violation of the Law.

11 And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. Mark 14:11.

And this:

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Again Strong’s: perdition 684. ἀπώλεια Strong’s Greek #684 from a presumed derivative of <G622> (apollumi); ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal).

‘Ruin’ or ‘loss.’ And the three senses in which it is used are ‘physical,’ ‘spiritual,’ or ‘eternal’ ruin. Jesus’ atonement in which His body and blood are ‘given for you’ cannot mean the ‘eternal’ ruin of Judas nor his ‘spiritual’ ruin for the Holy Spirit has not yet been given. The only sense in which ‘apollumi’ can apply is physical ruin, and this occurred when Judas hung himself and his bowels gushed out at the bottom of the ravine where his hanging took place.

Judas’s Repentance:

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

First, Judas understands his act against Jesus and ‘saw [perceived] he (Jesus) was condemned.’ Then Scripture states Judas repented and ‘brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests’ and he confessed ‘I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood.’ The chief priests say ‘what is that to us? See thou to that.’ Then Judas cast down the thirty pieces of silver in the temple and went out and hanged himself.

Under the Law it states:

23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Mischief followed. And the sentence for such mischief that an innocent man die is life for life. But the chief priest was not concerned with addressing Judas’s sin. They in effect told him to ‘see thou to that' (handle it yourself). So Judas went and handled it himself and gave his life under the law for the life of Jesus. What the prescription for Judas’s sin was for the religious leaders with the people in tow was to take him outside the city and stone him. Judas was obeying the Law and went out and gave his life for the life of innocent Jesus. And at this time, they were all still under the Law.

And what of this:

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Well let’s look at this statement. First, Strong defines the word ‘woe’ simply as ‘grief.’ And Judas grieved over his act against Jesus very deeply to the point of death. Secondly, ‘it had been good for that man if he had not been born’ can be understood that had Judas not been born he would not have woe or grief over what he did in betraying Jesus, would not have died under these circumstances, nor would he have betrayed Jesus, would not have died according to the Scripture, there would be no sacrifice, no atonement, and we would all still be in our sin under eternal damnation with no recourse. But according to the plan of God it was determined that someone betray Jesus and that man turned out providentially to be a man who was Jesus’ friend: Judas Iscariot.

49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come?

There are only two people in Scripture that Jesus calls ‘Friend,’ Abraham and Judas.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

There are no Friends of God in hell.

Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

In Isaiah the prophet describes the coming Redeemer as a Suffering Servant and Conquering King, as a Lamb of God and a Lion from the tribe of Judah. Before the cross Jesus was described by John the Baptist as the Lamb of God. This helps date and identify who these twelve apostles are: they are the twelve apostles (including Judas) of the Lamb, and this takes us to pre-cross apostles.


END

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Judas was predestined to reign and rule with and the other 11 in the age to come.

He chose to become a traitor.

He was an apostle, then he became a traitor.




JLB
 
Where does it say he is in hell? Where.
You didn't answer my question. Where in the Bible does it say that people Jesus calls friends will all be in heaven without exception.

I gave the verse I believe says Judas will be in hell. John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and protected them, and not one of them was lost except [d]the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. AMP
[D] Hebrew idiom for one destined to perish.
I think some other verses implicitly indicates Judas is toast, but this is best one IMO

Aside: the eternal destiny of Judas is way, way done my list of important biblical teachings...but fun to discuss I suppose


For a Baptist and the 1689 seems that’s not your confession
I'm not bound by that confession though it think it is accurate for the most part. Judas is in that confession? News to me.
 
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Judas was predestined to reign and rule with and the other 11 in the age to come.

He chose to become a traitor.

He was an apostle, then he became a traitor.




JLB
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

Jesus is speaking to His 12 disciples. That is a Promise to them and a Promise He will keep.

Unless you don't believe Jesus' Promises to His elect?
 
You didn't answer my question. Where in the Bible does it say that people Jesus calls friends will all be in heaven without exception.

I gave the verse I believe says Judas will be in hell. John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and protected them, and not one of them was lost except [d]the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. AMP
[D] Hebrew idiom for one destined to perish.
I think some other verses implicitly indicates Judas is toast, but this is best one IMO

Aside: the eternal destiny of Judas is way, way done my list of important biblical teachings...but fun to discuss I suppose



I'm not bound by that confession though it think it is accurate for the most part. Judas is in that confession? News to me.
Oh no. The Confession talks about election.

But you don't.

"Perdition" has three senses...physical, spiritual, and eternal. Judas committed suicide in obedience to the Law of life for life. He committed physical ruin. Jesus said He chose him but Judas was a liar and false accuser. If you condemn Judas to eternal damnation for revealing the location where Jesus escaped the crowds a betrayal of a secret place of refuge, then imagine the greater sins you have committed that are worse than what Judas did.
But thank God for His atonement that was given "for you" the twelve at the Passover meal, and God's election of His people.
NO ONE can take us out of His Father's hand, NO ONE can take us out of His hand. There are no apostles of the Lord in hell. Except my brother, Peter. He was Satan!
Judge righteous judgment.
 
You didn't answer my question. Where in the Bible does it say that people Jesus calls friends will all be in heaven without exception.

I gave the verse I believe says Judas will be in hell. John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and protected them, and not one of them was lost except [d]the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. AMP
[D] Hebrew idiom for one destined to perish.
I think some other verses implicitly indicates Judas is toast, but this is best one IMO

Aside: the eternal destiny of Judas is way, way done my list of important biblical teachings...but fun to discuss I suppose



I'm not bound by that confession though it think it is accurate for the most part. Judas is in that confession? News to me.
John 17:12 says NOTHING about hell. Ever heard of eisegesis? That's where you add to the Scripture thoughts, ideas and words that are not there.
Again, show me in Scripture Judas is going to hell in John 17:12.
Simple.
You can't. You're actually adding to the Scripture.
 
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