Good, someone else to take the reigns.
*Goes to the corner to watch and chew popcorn*
Christian Forums
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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ON THE QUESTION OF JUDAS ISCARIOT
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
*Goes to the corner to watch and chew popcorn*
He won't listen to scripture, therefore he won't listen to either one of us. And he is so angry we don't agree with him. Save some popcorn for me!
One can not lose something He never owned in the first place.
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7
- Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
- I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
- than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
- His sheep who wander away from are described by Jesus as having become lost.
- One of His sheep who becomes lost, has returned to being a “sinner” who needs repentance, in order to be restored and reconciled back to God.
- Sinner is a person who is separated from Christ; unjust, wicked
- Justified persons need no repentance.
JLB
Those people are Calvinist’s.
Calvinist’s follow John Calvin, and his teachings.
Christians are followers of Christ; the teachings of Christ
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
Jesus said to those who believed in Him, if you abide in My Word you are My Disciples indeed.
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32
Calvinist’s feel “safe”, hiding within the bondage of their deception, because they have believed the lie.
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
The Lie; Satan told THE LIE to Eve in the garden.
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die”.
Genesis 3:4
Go ahead Eve and disobey God, you won’t die!
OSAS is THE LIE!
You can live is disobedience to God and remain saved and never perish in hell, because once your saved, you are always saved.
JLB
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QUOTE: Using your free will to choose is not a sin. Not one verse says "unbelief is sinful".
RESPONSE: Not true. Here's a passage of Scripture:
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1 Jn 5:10.
To disbelieve God's testimony of His Son is to call God a liar. That's called 'false accusation.' And false witness is a sin.
Hello?
There are two perspectives and both are true. From God's perspective I am holy, I am righteous, and I am sinless (because of the cross of Calvary).
From the perspective of man, I am a sinner.
That's at least twice you said sinners are separated from God. Did you sin today? Yes, you did. So, according to your belief-system you're separated from God. I'm interacting with a reprobate? Hmmm...
Seems you don't know the history of John Calvin nor what he taught.
QUOTE: You can live is disobedience to God and remain saved and never perish in hell, because once your saved, you are always saved.
RESPONSE: No, your understanding is lacking on the doctrine of the Perseverance of the saint. You've never heard this before but we are two-thirds saved. Our soul is saved and we have a new human spirit created by God at the moment of our conversion and salvation to be restored to a three-fold being: body, soul, human spirit. THIS is the image of God. The only part of us that needs to be saved is our body, and that will happen in the future in the twinkling of an eye. Now, here's a Scripture that teaches the Perseverance of the saint: It's biblical. Read it. Receive it. Understand it.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. Jn. 10:27–29.
The Word of God.
Response to 'for_his_glory'
QUOTE: If Judas was truly Christ own then there is no way Satan could enter into him, John 13:26-27.
RESPONSE: Jesus called Peter "Satan." How do you reconcile these two?
QUOTE: Judas was the disciples treasure, but always being a theif even stole out of the treasury, John 12:6. Judas was lost from Jesus even before he betrayed Him with a kiss as Jesus knew he was doomed to destruction, or in other words eternally damned, John 17:12.
RESPONSE: He didn't read nor understand the Greek word "perdition," did you.
QUOTE: In Acts 1:16-20 as we also read in Matthew 27:3-10 Peter suggest that Psalms 109:8 was about Judas. This was all God's plan for redemption. Judas acknowledged his sin, but only remorseful after he saw what Jesus went through as he did not know what the outcome of his betrayal would be for Jesus as he only thought he would be imprisoned.
RESPONSE: In Matthew 27:3-5 contain all the elements to redemption (salvation)
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Mt 27:3–5.
Scripture says he repented and not was just remorseful but threw back the money. Repentance with an action of rejecting the money. He confessed his sin specifically. And since he was living under the Law he understood he was complicit in the condemnation and death of an innocent man (Jesus) so the prescription for that sin is life for life. The religious leaders should have taken him outside the city and stoned him in accordance to the Law of Moses for that sin. Instead, the religious leaders told him "what is that to us? See thou to THAT" (in other words, YOU handle it!).
So, he did. In OBEDIENCE to the Law he gave his life for the life of an innocent man who was condemned to die.
QUOTE: I will use Esau for an example as God did not hate Esau, but sore displeased with him in his deception of selling his birthright, Genesis 25. God said He also created evil and this is what fell upon Esau as we read in Malachi 1:2-5. It's the same with Judas when he betrayed Jesus as greed was his god.
RESPONSE: Contradicting Scripture with eyes wide open! The Holy Spirit said "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated."
QUOTE: Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.
RESPONSE: Tell me, what Hebrew word study are you using?
Who was it that said God doesn't create 'evil' (sin?) Good passage in Isaiah to support my post on "God Created Man (Adam) Sinful." Thanks.
QUOTE: If Judas was truly Christ own then there is no way Satan could enter into him, John 13:26-27.
RESPONSE: Jesus called Peter "Satan." How do you reconcile these two?
QUOTE: Judas was the disciples treasure, but always being a theif even stole out of the treasury, John 12:6. Judas was lost from Jesus even before he betrayed Him with a kiss as Jesus knew he was doomed to destruction, or in other words eternally damned, John 17:12.
RESPONSE: He didn't read nor understand the Greek word "perdition," did you.
QUOTE: In Acts 1:16-20 as we also read in Matthew 27:3-10 Peter suggest that Psalms 109:8 was about Judas. This was all God's plan for redemption. Judas acknowledged his sin, but only remorseful after he saw what Jesus went through as he did not know what the outcome of his betrayal would be for Jesus as he only thought he would be imprisoned.
RESPONSE: In Matthew 27:3-5 contain all the elements to redemption (salvation)
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Mt 27:3–5.
Scripture says he repented and not was just remorseful but threw back the money. Repentance with an action of rejecting the money. He confessed his sin specifically. And since he was living under the Law he understood he was complicit in the condemnation and death of an innocent man (Jesus) so the prescription for that sin is life for life. The religious leaders should have taken him outside the city and stoned him in accordance to the Law of Moses for that sin. Instead, the religious leaders told him "what is that to us? See thou to THAT" (in other words, YOU handle it!).
So, he did. In OBEDIENCE to the Law he gave his life for the life of an innocent man who was condemned to die.
QUOTE: I will use Esau for an example as God did not hate Esau, but sore displeased with him in his deception of selling his birthright, Genesis 25. God said He also created evil and this is what fell upon Esau as we read in Malachi 1:2-5. It's the same with Judas when he betrayed Jesus as greed was his god.
RESPONSE: Contradicting Scripture with eyes wide open! The Holy Spirit said "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated."
QUOTE: Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.
RESPONSE: Tell me, what Hebrew word study are you using?
Who was it that said God doesn't create 'evil' (sin?) Good passage in Isaiah to support my post on "God Created Man (Adam) Sinful." Thanks.
Your argument requires the unbeliever realize God proved by miraculous works and witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is God the Son.
If he didn't, your syllogism fails. He is not calling God a liar, he doesn't even know God is involved.
I don't say categorically unbelief isn't sinful, but it does not follow Christ's sacrifice which atoned for all sin means unbelievers are forgiven, that Judas is in heaven.
I know that is impossible.
Christ said he was lost.
QUOTE: Your argument requires the unbeliever realize God proved by miraculous works and witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is God the Son.
RESPONSE: Isn't that what happen to Peter when he said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" and Jesus told him that His Father revealed that to him?
QUOTE: I don't say categorically unbelief isn't sinful, but it does not follow Christ's sacrifice which atoned for all sin means unbelievers are forgiven, that Judas is in heaven.
RESPONSE: Yes, you did. Categorically or otherwise. See, you're doing it again. I know a person who in one sentence says two opposite things like you do.
IF Jesus atoned for ALL sin then ALL sinners are atoned and going to heaven. That's called Universalism, and it's unbiblical. Jesus died for His Church and NOT everyone is His Church.
The word "lost" refers to his self-destruction, his suicide in obedience to the Law of Moses for life for life. What's so hard about that? It's recorded in Scripture. All one has to do is ask, seek, and knock for the knowledge of the truth.
What astounds me are Christians who condemn Judas, a sinner under the Law, but then pray God save their sinning mom or dad who don't know Christ. Hypocrites!
Haters.
Christ was revealed to Peter Where does it say God reveals all the particulars about Jesus to everyone?
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Rom. 10:14 KJV)
If someone disbelieves in Jesus and has no knowledge of what God did to prove Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God...he is not calling God a liar. He doesn't know God said anything.
I believe its sinful to not believe, AFTER God bore witness. That is why Judas is without excuse, he was there for every miracle the Father did proving Jesus is the Messiah.
Christ didn't say Judas was "lost according the law of Moses", he called him the "son of Perdition, said unlike the eleven, Judas was lost and "woe to him."
Jesus compared Judas to the Eleven saved eternally, unlike them he alone "is lost".
You ignore all that.
I am NOT a universalist. You seem to be claiming Judas is saved. If he could be saved, then so can everyone else.
You assume Judas committed suicide before Christ died and was still under the Law.
That doesn't seem likely, throwing the coin away likely happened one of the Sabbaths later, after Christ's resurrection. Therefore Judas was under the New Covenant when he died an unbeliever. He went to hell, the "lowest hell" most likely.
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Again if you are a sinner, you are seperated from Christ; lost, in need of repentance, unjust.
What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7
- I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents
- than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
JLB
Well then, Paul was a sinner. By your theology and statement, he was separated from God.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Rom. 7:7–8.
Paul says he was a sinner. Paul says he sinned through lust. Do you reject this Word of God?
Calvinist's follow John Calvin: his doctrine
Christian's follow Christ: The doctrine of Christ
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9
JLB
Paul was not a sinner, Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ, a saint; joined to Christ, one spirit with Him.
Paul was an insolent man who persecuted the Church and considered himself the chief of sinners, at the top of the list of sinners Christ came into the world to save.
Once a sinner repents and turns to Christ, they become saved, reconciled to God; holy, sanctified, set apart.
A sinner is someone who practices sin, and is thetefore wicked, unjust, lost.
sinner --
- devoted to sin, a sinner
- not free from sin
- pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
- all wicked men
- specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
- tax collectors, heathen
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? Now
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
1 Peter 4:17-18
- If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear
See the difference between righteous one and sinner.
JLB
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Sorry to post a Scripture that contradicts your belief:
No, not sorry. Let the Word of God tell you what to believe rather than you telling the Word of God what to say.
Paul was a sinner. He sinned. Even as a Christian.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Ro 7:7–11.
Paul! You sinner!
Saved by the grace of God. But he still sinned after his salvation.
Agreed. It not even a close call. Mind you, I trade my record for his.
When you read Romans 7:1-6 Paul is teaching how we are delivered from the law that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
From vs. 7-25 now we serve the law of God being the laws that are written upon our heart, but with the flesh we serve the law of sin.
Judas Iscariot never walked in obedience to the laws of God and through the lust of greed in his heart he died in his sin not being one of God's own found in His righteousness.
If one is walking in the Spirit they can not fulfill the lust of the flesh, Galatians 5:16. Like Paul, in his BC years (Before Christ) claimed himself to be the worst of sinners, but after his Spiritual conversion on the road to Damascus he was no longer a sinner living in the flesh. Judas never had that Spiritual conversion like the other disciples as he was a theif and died a theif.
There was no Holy Spirit in the disciples or the people at large in Israel before Pentecost. The Holy Spirit rested on Jesus and that's where He stayed.
Judas was obedient to the Law.
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. Mt. 27:3–5.
First, Judas saw that Jesus an innocent man was condemned to death.
Second, Judas repented (changed his mind) and took back the silver to the priests. That act is called repentance, to restore what was ill-gotten or mis-gotten in a sin.
Third, Judas confessed his sin 'I have betrayed innocent blood.'
And what is the punishment for betraying an innocent man that he dies? Yes, that's right. It's in the Law of Moses: Life for life.
Fourth, the religious leader(s) (the high priest) said, "what is THAT to us. See thou to that."
In the vernacular they in effect told Judas they didn't care about his sin, his repentance, his confession of sin. What they should have done was take Judas outside of the city and stoned him as commanded by the Law of Moses, right? They told him "YOU HANDLE IT! (see thou to that.)
So, in obedience to the Law of Moses and the priests unwilling to obey the Law of Moses, Judas went out and 'handled it' he committed suicide.
In obedience to the Law of Moses.
So, in these passages Judas' moral compass was correct. He repented, he confessed, and he gave life for life as prescribed by the Law of Moses.
By the way, again, the Holy Spirit did not Advent as Promised until Pentecost. About forty days after the resurrection.
First, righteousness cometh not by the Law.
Judas obeyed the Law, the religious leaders did not.
God's Law(s) were not written upon the heart until the elect began to be saved in Acts 2, at Pentecost. And God's Law(s) are written upon the heart (or life, not the proverbial heart. It only pumps blood), and ONLY believers in Covenant have such an imputation of God's Law(s) written upon their heart. Unbelievers do not got that coming. They will be judged without the Law written upon their lives (heart.)
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20.
No, Judas didn't have a spiritual conversion. None of them had a spiritual conversion UNTIL Pentecost.