Bible Study "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

[serapha]

There are those that because of OSAS think that they can live as they like because "OSAS".

It is often used by some to justify murder, abuse and wickedness in the name of Jesus, because "OSAS"!

This is the danger of OSAS.

on the other hand Arminianism carries the danger of men putting their trust in their own works, that somehow the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary was not sufficient to reconcile man to God, that there is something we must do to complete this work.

Hi there!

:smt039

First of all, you are mistaking "once saved, always saved" with the desire of seekers to get "fire insurance". Anyone who seeks salvation with the idea that they shall continue in sin, hasn't read the Bible.


Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

When Paul uses that expression.... "God forbid"... that is the strongest from of exclamation that is present in the Greek language and it is a response to a question in contrast... mean absolutely and irrevokably NOOOOO!

So, Paul teaches shall we sin under grace???? NOOOO! Shall we CONTINUE in sin... NOOOO!


God's in the life changing business... He isn't selling "fire insurance"... He's offering eternal life.

~serapha~

 

[serapha]

And, there was King David...who, as you study the 51st Chapter of Psalms...you'll discover he was in fear, of losing his salvation also !

Psalm 51

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. 5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. 9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. 16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. 18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

Hi there!

:smt039

Under the law, sins are forgiven on the Day of Atonement by the sacrifices made. However....


Yom Kippur atones only for sins between man and G-d, not for sins against another person. To atone for sins against another person, you must first seek reconciliation with that person, righting the wrongs you committed against them if possible. That must all be done before Yom Kippur. (http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm)

There are different words for "sin" in Hebrew, and the word in this passage is a type of sin that is missing the mark, the mark being the path set by God. Transgressions are not as we see the word in English, but rather as a rebellion, in this case again, a rebellion against godly teachings.


The point, though it this... On the day of atonement, then the sacrifices were made, the sins of the people were forgiven, never to be brought before them or God again. The slate was wiped clean on each day of atonement, and when there was atonement for their sins, then they were "eternally secure" until the next day of atonement.

David obviously did not want to wait for the day of atonement for this sin to be forgiven, and he sought God's forgiveness

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


David did know that the Spirit of God was not a permenant indwelling spirit as the New Testament saints would experience, but in the Old Testament, the Spirit of God was for a time and for a reason. The Spirit of God left Saul, and David did not want to lose the Spirit of God in the same way.


I don't understand how you get this to be an argument against the doctrine of eternal security. David was secure from day of atonement--to the next day of atonement. That was the best that God offered in the Old Testament....

Am I missing something here?


~serapha~

 

[serapha]

Let me give you some Bible examples of people who lost....their salvation:

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven".
BUT....a short time later....
John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (NO MORE !)
6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? "

Hi there!

:smt039



What plan of salvation were they "saved" under?

Not one of the disciples was saved by faith until after the death of Christ. That Peter professed who Christ was did not save him from his sins... professing who Christ is does not save anyone...

I am redeem by the blood of the Lamb... I am redeemed by the sacrifice that Jesus made in my place. He paid the debt for me... and because I believe by faith that He did, I am redeemed.

These people were disciples.... people who were learning under Jesus' teachings. Is there a passage in the Bible that says that the 70 disciples were the same disciples who are identified in John 6:66 as turning away?

To understand the meaning of disciple.... Jesus was living in Capernaum where the teachings in the synagogue were the teachings on the House of Hillel. Jesus was a "disciple" of these teachings and his teachings reflect that. Rabbi's taught students, and students were called disciples of that particular rabbi. It did not mean that the student had a profession of faith in the Rabbi, but rather they were just students of learning of that Rabbi concerning the "Scriptures".


Does that help in your understanding?


~serapha~

 

[serapha]

The Apostle Paul himself had reservation......1 Corinthians 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway"
(Look up what 'castaway' means, in Greek)


Castaway... (BLB)
adokimos

1) not standing the test, not approved

a) properly used of metals and coins

2) that which does not prove itself such as it ought

a) unfit for, unproved, spurious, reprobate


The apostle Paul came to an assured understanding when near the end of his life he states that he had fought a good fight, that he had run a good race... he had the assurance of eternal life in those passages. However, this passage is a younger Paul, and he saw a need in himself to understand and restain his being, his person into subjection to Christ... "I die daily"... as we all should. Just as today, we wash and bath the dirt off our bodies, we brush to clean our teeth, we wash and clean our hair... every day, there is a need to wash the heart and cleanse it of impurities... If Paul was concerned about being a "castaway".... he would certainly know that "castaway" coins were just melted and reformed until a perfect weight or perfect impression was made.

Paul was seeking that God would "mold and make" him into what God wanted him to be.





*************************************************************
Luke 8:12 "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which [for a while believe], and in time of temptation fall away".
(For a while believed, then fell away ? )


Does receiving the word with joy mean receiving the word in their heart or does it mean that they hear the gospel with joy... if they have no root, have they been planted in Christ or just sprouted and still looking to root?

 

[Jay T]

What is the result of Jesus's offering? ....he hath prefected for ever them (who) them that are sanctified.

The result ?
Revelation 14:4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God".

Revelation 14:12 ?Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

 

[poetrob68]

My two Cents

I've read the replies to this topic and I've dealt with this in other forums
over the web.

From what I've read, you are confusing certain scriptures and issues.

1) The garden for instance. The implication of what Satan said wasn't
once saved always saved. Read what Satan said again. The directness
says it all. Satan said you will be like God. Satan said you will know good
and evil. You will not die. (My words) Remember God's warning about
eating the forbidden fruit. God said the penalty would be death. (My words) Satan was throwing this down. Telling Eve she could eat the
fruit without consequence. What was lost was a perfect relationship
with God.

 

[poetrob68]

Scripture Reference

The best scriptural evidence that we cannot lose our salvation is in
Roman's where Paul says that he's convinced nothing can separate
us from the love of God.

The whole idea that we can ever lose our salvation goes against
the whole reason that Christ came. To Give Us eternal life.
This thinking is just not right and speaks to where we are in our
faith. No assurance is greater than knowing we cannot lose our
salvation. Until we deal with this issue, we cannot hope to grow
as Christians.

Remember that we are saved by grace. Not by works.
Salvation is a gift from God.

Many did desert the Lord however it wasn't because they lost their
salvation. What they lost is the nerve to follow Jesus. We cannot
go and sin without being dealt with by the Holy Spirit. One day we'll
answer to God for our sinful living. In no wise can we lose our salvation.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Re: Scripture Reference

The best scriptural evidence that we cannot lose our salvation is in
Roman's where Paul says that he's convinced nothing can separate
us from the love of God.

The whole idea that we can ever lose our salvation goes against
the whole reason that Christ came. To Give Us eternal life.
This thinking is just not right and speaks to where we are in our
faith. No assurance is greater than knowing we cannot lose our
salvation. Until we deal with this issue, we cannot hope to grow
as Christians.

Remember that we are saved by grace. Not by works.
Salvation is a gift from God.

Many did desert the Lord however it wasn't because they lost their
salvation. What they lost is the nerve to follow Jesus. We cannot
go and sin without being dealt with by the Holy Spirit. One day we'll
answer to God for our sinful living. In no wise can we lose our salvation.

Then one must ask this question. If a man would turn from Christ, where they truly saved?

The Scripture says one must confess with his mouth and believewith his heart. To turn from Faith would show that their heart has stopped believing. That is what leaves the question imbalanced.

Again, I say, Live your life to Please the Father, and OSAS will not matter.

 

[Jay T]

Re: Scripture Reference

Remember that we are saved by grace. Not by works.

And by not working with God. one can receive grace....'in vain' !
2 Corinthians 6:1 "We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain".
[quote:9facc]Salvation is a gift from God.

[/quote:9facc]
Where does it say that salvation is a gift of God ?

Do you work for a gift ?

What does this Bible verse say to you:
Phillipians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always [obeyed], not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [work out your own salvation] with fear and trembling".


The formula for Salvation goes like this:
GRACE + FAITH = SALVATION

In other words, salvation is the direct result of faith and grace.

Grace, is God's power to obey what the Bible says to do:
Romans 1:5 "By whom we have [received grace].....for obedience .....to the faith, among all nations, for his name"

Grace, is the free gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).....not salvation

 

[JM]

What is the result of Jesus's offering? ....he hath prefected for ever them (who) them that are sanctified.

The result ?
Revelation 14:4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God".

Revelation 14:12 ?Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

Jay,

One offering for sin,
that always (AMEN), always (AMEN again) results in perfection,
Jesus Christ sits down.

That's true salvation. Believe it or not. OSAS is different from the "P" in the 'tulip.' I suggest anyone interested in learning more about true preservation of the faith, find a calvinist site...not a calminan site.

peace

 

[poetrob68]

Jay T

Give me a few days to get the exact verse and quote it for you.
If you have a concordance, look up the word grace. The verse
you'll be looking for is in Romans. It starts out saying " for by
grace are we saved not by works... My johnny on the spot quoting
is a bit rusty so I'll look it up and quote it exactly.

 

[poetrob68]

Ephesians 2:8-9

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I was wrong about this being in Romans. I hope you didn't look for it. :

Another example I can use is Peter's Denial of Jesus. remember he did
three times? If salvation could be lost, it would have happened to Peter.
Instead, later, Jesus appeared to him and restored his faith.
Peter didn't lose his salvation.

I really advise you study scripture on the issue of whether or not we
can lose our salvation. The answers are there. I suggest reading the
book of Romans. In NKJV or NIV because it is easier to understand.

I especially advise you to pray and ask God to reveal answers to you.

 

[Jay T]

Re: Ephesians 2:8-9

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The correct understanding of this Bible verse is understood, by the Bible's definition, of the words: grace, and faith.
# 1.) Grace is, God's power to obey....
"By whom we have [received grace].....for obedience .....to the faith, among all nations, for his name", (Romans 1:5).
# 2.) FAITH:
"So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)...meaning faith comes from Bible study alone !

So now, let's look at Ephesians again, with the correct Bible definitions in mind.
Ephesians 2:8 means.....For by obedience (grace) are you saved through what you study in the Bible (faith), and that not of yourselves, it grace is the gift of God...that no man should boast"

Another example I can use is Peter's Denial of Jesus. remember he did
three times? If salvation could be lost, it would have happened to Peter.
Instead, later, Jesus appeared to him and restored his faith.
Peter didn't lose his salvation.

Had you read your Bible you would have noticed that Peter was 'not' converted...until, 'AFTER'.......he denied Christ:

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

 

[Stranger and pilgrim]

OSAS is ubiblical however Perseverence of the Saints is not.

 

[poetrob68]

enough for me

I've tried to help you understand something about losing our salvation
and you turn around accusing me of not reading my bible. In a round
about way.

Obvously I do. I'm not sure you want to know if you are right or not.
If you want to discuss this and learn something then you have to
be open minded to what I say. or what anyone says.

All you do is play interpretation games in order to reject outright scripture
quotes such as the one I provided showing you where it says salvation
is a gift from God. Something you did ask of me.

I want to continue this but not if you are going to ask me if I
read my bible. I have been respectful to you.

Regarding what I said about Peter, do you not recall Peter being
called by Jesus to be one of the Twelve? Jesus most certainly wouldn't
call a non-believer to follow him. Peter had seen every miracle by
Jesus. When Jesus asked Peter who he says he is, Do you remember
what Peter said? Peter Said " Christ the son of God" Jesus said back
that no one but God could have revealed this to him. (my words)

Peter didn't blindly follow Jesus. Peter swore he would follow even if it meant his life. Jesus then told him he would deny him three times.
Peter did and can you imagine how Peter felt when it came to pass?
More than likely like a failure and a liar after swearing he would follow
to the death. One minute Peter said one thing and the next something
else. I'll follow you to the death and I don't know him. (my words)

What you said about Peter being converted just doesn't add up and is
not supported by scripture in any of the four gospels. Matthew, Mark,
Luke or John. Don't take my word for it. Take God's word for it.
Read about Jesus calling Peter to follow him.

If this is not locked, I look forward to continuing this with you.
If it is, just follow my advise about asking God to reveal the
truth about salvation to you.

love, poe

 

[Jay T]

Re: enough for me

I've tried to help you understand something about losing our salvation
and you turn around accusing me of not reading my bible. In a round
about way.

Perhaps I been going about this the wrong way.
Let's approach this from the standpoint, of the Judgment Day of God.

Point #1.)1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?"

God is going to Judge the church (Christians) first, do you see that ?
It is called, the 'Investigative Judgment'.


1 Peter 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely be saved.....?"
(Which means, NO ONE just skates into heaven, easily)

Now, over in Revelation 3:5 we read:
Rev. 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life..."
And, this relates to something Christ said in Exodus 32:33.....
32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book".

Did you get that ?

To have a name blotted out of the Book of Life.....it has to be there, in the first place, right ?

OK, in Rev. 3:5 we read that 'only' those who 'overcome' will keep their names, in the book of life.

QUESTION: Overcome what ?

Exodus 32:33 tells us, what there is, to overcome......SIN !
Because those who commit sin...after having their names 'in' the Book of life....will be blotted out...of the Book of Life.


Ezekiel 33:13 "When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity (sin), all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity (sin) that he hath committed, he shall die for it".

33:18 "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity (sin), he shall even die thereby".

Hebrews10:26 For if we (Christians) sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

 

[archer]

Could it be possible that your name is blotted out due to unconfessed sin?

 

[Jay T]

Could it be possible that your name is blotted out due to unconfessed sin?

Exodus 32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book".
QUESTION: What Book ?
Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...."

And what is really tragic...is that Satan has blinded the Christian world, as to what the Bible describes, as sin !
2 Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[element80]

Re: Ephesians 2:8-9

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The correct understanding of this Bible verse is understood, by the Bible's definition, of the words: grace, and faith.
# 1.) Grace is, God's power to obey....
"By whom we have [received grace].....for obedience .....to the faith, among all nations, for his name", (Romans 1:5).

How dare you leave parts of that verse out in order to make it say what you want. here's what it really says:

"Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith."

it says that becasue we have grace, we can call others to obedience. In no way does that state that grace is obedience. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us waht grace is: "a gift of God, not of works" Obedience is a work, grace is from God. You just tried to redefine the word in the very verse that defines it.

# 2.) FAITH:
"So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)...meaning faith comes from Bible study alone !

So now, let's look at Ephesians again, with the correct Bible definitions in mind.
Ephesians 2:8 means.....For by obedience (grace) are you saved through what you study in the Bible (faith), and that not of yourselves, it grace is the gift of God...that no man should boast"

rmns 10:17 isn't defining faith, it is telling us how we come about having faith. If you want a definition of faith, look at Hebrews 11:1

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. "

So now plug those definitions into Eph 2:8-9, and you have

By the free gift of God we are saved through believing but not seeing...

 

[element80]

Re: "Once Saved, Always Saved" (Satan's first Lie)

John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (NO MORE !)
6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? "

it's important to look at these verses in the context they were given. if you look a few verses earlier (John 6:60-70), it says that the ones that left never believed to begin with

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"
(depart...from the faith ? )

Again, keep it in context. Read a little bit further, adn you'll see that this verse deals with people being led astray on certain aspects, namely what was okay to eat. They were departing from their faith in the fact the God had made everything clean. they weren't losing their salvation

Lastly, I'd like to say that you can't use those OT verses to back up your argument, because there was no salavation in the OT the way e have it now. In the OT, it was possible for your status with God to change. Once Christ died, however, accepting Him once guarentees you salvation for eternity