Bible Study "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

[AVBunyan]

Chapter and verse Please

Jay T says:

Satan wants people to believe that God will ignore some small sin, and let people into heaven anyway.....so, Satan get people to keep committing, the little sins.

Chapter and verse Please :o

Thank you - I will be patiently waiting but I won't be holding my breath. :-?

 

[element80]

1 Cor inthinas 5 talks about expelling an immoral borther. Verse 5, in paricular, says "hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." Since the word "brother" is used, we know that this immoral perosn is a Christian. This verse shows that even when you're bad enough that your fellow Christians have handed you over to Satan, your spirit is still saved.

You must realize that such an intrepretation is a license to sin!

Once again, there are other verses that deal with the fact that we shouldn't keep on sinning. Just becasue you can do something doesn't mena you should.

Here is the passage you quote:

11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

The context says they claim to be Christians, but they aren't. Here is further proof:

[quote:f5451]13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.â€Â

The man is clearly called "wicked!" It is not possible for this man to be a Christian because he is called wicked and we know that the wicked will not be in heaven:[/quote:f5451]

Paul says that God will judge those outside, but earlier has claims that he (Paul) has already passed judgement on the immoral person. This means that either the person is a Christian, or Paul is being hipocritical

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:

Besides, here is what the Bible says about this man:

[quote:f5451]5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It says his spirit "may be saved," not that he will be saved.

Here is another place in the same epistle where it uses that term:

1 Corinthians 10:32-34
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God–even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

With your intrepretation of this text, Paul is doing all these things trying to save people, when they are already saved. Such is not true! The people are not saved and Paul is trying to save them.[/quote:f5451]

Please, that's such a stretch. It's being used in a different context here. Beisdes, it's not Paul who saves, it's Christ.

 

[archer]

Salvation once applied to the sinner, cannot and will not be resisted. As Jesus explained, " All that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out"(John 6:37) Salvation is Christ's work applied to the sinner by the Fathers sovereign act.
Do we as humans have the ability to frustrate God? In essence that is what you are saying when you say you can loose your salvation. Salvation is an act of God. As John Murray explained, " We become partakers of redemption by an act of God that instates in us the realm of salvation, and all the corresponding changes in us and in our attitudes and reactions are the result of the saving forces at work within the realm into which, by God's sovereign and efficacious act, we have been ushered.
God is not a spectator. He alone initiated the plan of salvation, raised Jesus from the dead. He does not sit by idly and wonder whether we will loose our salvation. Why? Because it is not our salvation to loose.

 

[AVBunyan]

Thanks

He alone initiated the plan of salvation, raised Jesus from the dead. He does not sit by idly and wonder whether we will loose our salvation. Why? Because it is not our salvation to loose.

Thanks Archer - nicely put

God bless

 

[Judy]

Do you realize that OSAS is found in churches, that hold Sunday worship services ?

And does not the vast majority of the Christian world observe Sunday worship services ?

And, does not the Bible says that the majority, are always wrong...regarding religious matters ?

Exodus 19:3-5, was given to the house of Jacob, the children of Israel.!

• Exodus 19:3. And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:
  4. `You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself.
  5. `Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine[/*:m:f1637]

Exodus 31:16-17, Shows it was a sign between God and the children of Israel forever!

• Exodus 31:16. `Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
  17. `It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' ''[/*:m:f1637]

Deuteronomy 5:12-14, is where the Isrealites were commanded to observer the Sabbath... But in verse 15 they are given the reason why.The reason for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but to remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance.

• Deuteronomy 5: 12. `Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
  13. Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
  14. but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall not do any work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you.[/*:m:f1637]

• Deuteronomy 5:15. And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.[/*:m:f1637]

Whenever Christ appears in His resurrected form and the day is mentioned it is always the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1, 9, 10; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1, 13, 15; John 20:19, 26).

The only time the Sabbath is mentioned from Acts through Revelation it is for evangelistic purposes to the Jews and the setting is usually in a synagogue (Acts chapters 13–18). Paul wrote, "to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews" (1 Corinthians 9:20). Paul did not go to the synagogue to fellowship with and edify the saints, but to convict and save the lost. Once Paul states "from now on I will go to the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6), the Sabbath is never again mentioned. And instead of suggesting adherence to the Sabbath day, the remainder of the New Testament implies the opposite.
Colossians 2:16 shows that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath...

• Colossians 2: 16. Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
  17. which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.[/*:m:f1637]

The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us"

• Colossians 2:14. having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.[/*:m:f1637]

We see this repeated more then once in the New Testament..

• Romans 14:5-6 "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it"....[/*:m:f1637]

• Galatians 4:9-10 "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years" (Galatians 4:9–10).[/*:m:f1637]

On what day did the early church meet for worship? Scripture never mentions any Sabbath (Saturday) gatherings by believers for fellowship or worship. However, there are clear passages that mention the first day of the week. For instance, Acts 20:7 states that "on the first day of the week the disciples came together to break bread." In 1 Corinthians 16:2 Paul urges the Corinthian believers "on the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper." Since Paul designates this offering as "service" in 2 Corinthians 9:12, this collection must have been linked with the Sunday worship service of the Christian assembly. Historically Sunday, not Saturday, was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century

The Sabbath was given to Israel, not the church. The Sabbath is still Saturday, not Sunday, and has never been changed. But the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law, and Christians are free from the bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:1-26; Romans 6:14). Sabbath keeping is not required of the Christianâ€â€be it Saturday or Sunday. The first day of the week, Sunday, the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10) celebrates the New Creation, with Christ as our resurrected Head. We are not obligated to follow the Mosaic Sabbathâ€â€resting, but are now free to follow the risen Christâ€â€serving. The Apostle Paul said that each individual Christian should decide whether to observe a Sunday Sabbath, “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind†(Romans 14:5).†We are to worship God every day, not just on Saturday or Sunday

(some of the info was gathered from different books and sites.)

 

[Jay T]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

Jay T says:

Satan wants people to believe that God will ignore some small sin, and let people into heaven anyway.....so, Satan get people to keep committing, the little sins.

Chapter and verse Please :o

Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die"

 

[element80]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

Jay T says:

Satan wants people to believe that God will ignore some small sin, and let people into heaven anyway.....so, Satan get people to keep committing, the little sins.

Chapter and verse Please :o

Genesis 3:3 "But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die"

That verse is completely irrelevant. You're saying that because God didn't ignore the fact that two perfect beings broke the only rule He gave them, shows that God is not willing to look past a sin in a struggling Christian's life.

 

[archer]

Grace cannot be earned, deserved or bought, in hole or in part. That is why the bible constantly contrast grace with law, works and debt.
Under law, a man receives what he justly deserves. The 10 commandments, for instance, promised continuance of life on earth to those who obeyed, and death to those who disobeyed.
The principle of works means that a man receives wages in payment for his labor. He is justly entitled to his pay because he earned it.
The idea of debt is that one person owes something to another in payment for services rendered.
Grace is the opposite of these! It is not a law keeper who God saves, If a person could keep the 10 commandments, he would not need to be saved. But grace saves those who have broken the law and are in danger of hell.
Salvation is not a reward given to men who perform good works. It is to those who do not work but who believe on him who justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:4,5)
Salvation is not a debt which God owes to men for their purity of life. It is a kindness which he shows to men who ought to be in hell.

 

[AVBunyan]

Justification issue

I'll try this one more time.

This OSAS is really an issue about justifcation. If you have an understanding of what true justification is then OSAS is no problem.

Question:

Was Christ's death and shedding of blood for your sins sufficient or not?

If what Christ did was sufficient the issue is settled. It appears to me that many who do not feel what Christ did at Calvary was sufficient for their sins. :o

If you really do not believe that Christ died for your sins then you will worry about sinning, sins, etc. and continue and going about to establish your own righteousness, have not submitted yourselves unto the righteousness of God.

Forget about the issue of OSAS - get justification settled. Study what really took place between the Father and the Son.

One more question - have you ever really done a study of the "tion" words of Romans? I mean justification, propitiation, adaption, glorification, etc. It is apparrent that some do not know what these words mean scripturally.

Instead you spend your life roaming the bible lookiing for obscure passages that have nothing to do with the body of Christ. :roll:

God bless.

 

[destiny]

What happens to a person who has a real encounter with Jesus Christ, gets saved and walks with the Lord for awhile, and then later is seduced by buddhism, and then turns away to forign Gods.
Are they still saved and justified?

 

[AVBunyan]

Still saved

What happens to a person who has a real encounter with Jesus Christ, gets saved and walks with the Lord for awhile, and then later is seduced by buddhism, and then turns away to forign Gods.
Are they still saved and justified?

Strange sceanario - but if he was truly regenerated he is saved still.

Now - to be honest if he was truly saved I don't see how he could become a Muslim or Buddhist. He can backslide, get drunk, mistreat his wife and just plain blow it but he would be misearable in this life while the Lord drug him through it but still saved.

But....to become a Muslim, etc. would tell me that most likely he was never regenerated in the true Biblical sense.

That's my take.

God bless

 

[Jay T]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

That verse is completely irrelevant.

Only the most UNwise person would say shuch a thing as that !
Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
EVERYTHING....that is in the Bible, has infinite importance !!!
Lessons to be understood.

You're saying that because God didn't ignore the fact that two perfect beings broke the only rule He gave them, shows that God is not willing to look past a sin in a struggling Christian's life.

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons"

God takes into account a person's backround, education, social surroundings, opportunities, everything....and therefore is the reason no man may judge another, because they cannot see everything about any single individual.

BUT..... John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin".

 

[element80]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

That verse is completely irrelevant.

Only the most UNwise person would say shuch a thing as that !
Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".
EVERYTHING....that is in the Bible, has infinite importance !!!
Lessons to be understood.

Oh please, I meant that verse was irrelevant in the context of this discussion, and you know it. Trying to make me look bad isn't going to work.

You're saying that because God didn't ignore the fact that two perfect beings broke the only rule He gave them, shows that God is not willing to look past a sin in a struggling Christian's life.

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons"

God takes into account a person's backround, education, social surroundings, opportunities, everything....and therefore is the reason no man may judge another, because they cannot see everything about any single individual.

BUT..... John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin".

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, please clarify.

 

[Jay T]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

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You're saying that because God didn't ignore the fact that two perfect beings broke the only rule He gave them, shows that God is not willing to look past a sin in a struggling Christian's life.

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons"

God takes into account a person's backround, education, social surroundings, opportunities, everything....and therefore is the reason no man may judge another, because they cannot see everything about any single individual.

BUT..... John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin".

[quote:dc024]
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, please clarify.

[/quote:dc024]God ignores no sin in anyone, no matter how large or small it may appear in our eyes....if, the warning has been given.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

God ignores no sin in anyone, no matter how large or small it may appear in our eyes....if, the warning has been given.

Positionally in Christ (Ephesians and Colossians) I have no sin so POSITIONALLY God not only ignores the sin but doesn't even see any sin in my for their is no sin in the real me - the "me" that is in Christ seated in the heavenly places where there is no sin.

God bless

 

[Jay T]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

God ignores no sin in anyone, no matter how large or small it may appear in our eyes....if, the warning has been given.

Positionally in Christ (Ephesians and Colossians) I have no sin so POSITIONALLY God not only ignores the sin but doesn't even see any sin in my for their is no sin in the real me - the "me" that is in Christ seated in the heavenly places where there is no sin.

And this dangerous idea stems, from the false deception of ....."Once Saved, Always Saved"

 

[Jay T]

I am always mindful of Christ's warning to some that He would remove their names out of the Book of Life.

You and I had nothing to say about our coming into this world, BUT....how and where we spend eternity is entirely in our hands, and depends wholly upon our own choice.

If you choose to spend eternity in God's everlasting Kingdom, then you must bring your life into harmony with God's ways, with his ideals and standards, with His Laws ...and pattern of living.

For He will not change His Kingdom to suit your convenience or comform to your ideas.

His is a Kingdom of Righteousness (Right-doing) and Peace and Joy.
If you want to live in God's Kingdom, you must be Righteous (Yourself), at peace with God and man.

The Prophet Isaiah states the matter very clearly and leaves no one in doubt regarding who will make the change.
He says: "Seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near...let the wicked forsake his way, and the UNrighteous man his thoughts.....FOR MY THOUGHTS ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS, NEITHER ARE YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, SAYS THE LORD.
FOR AS THE HEAVENS ARE HIGHER THAN THE EARTH, SO ARE MY WAYS HIGHER THAN YOUR WAYS, AND MY THOUGHTS HIGHER THAN YOUR THOUGHTS", (Isaiah 55:8,9)

Such is the difference between God's eternal Knigdom and the Kingdoms of this world.
Here on this earth man's ideas and ways prevail, BUT over there God's thoughts and standards hold absolute sway.
If you don't like them, then you will not be there.
For God does not want you there in His everlasting Kingdom UNLESS you want to be thereand are willing to conform your life in EVERY detail to His ways and wishes, to His pattern of noble living.
That is it, as far as His Kingdom is concerned, and he says in effect: Take it or leave it !

There will be no compulsion, no coercion, no undue persuasion, no force of any kind.
There will be no more compromising, or coddling.
It is this or else. God is through with sin and sinners.
He has set a day when sin and those who hang onto their sins will be eradicated and destroyed wherever it may be found.
WHY ?
God has, for thousands of years, felt the pain and sufferings of people, who have been effected by sin and its consequences.
He has felt the starvation of little children....
He has felt the pain and suffering of those people who died under the terrible diseases, such as cancer, Black Plague, etc.
He has felt the pain of people, who have lost loved ones, through wars...accidents....etc.

God knows the kinds of people He wants with him throughout all eternity in His Kingdom of Peace and Joy, where no more sin, sickness or sorrow will be found.

As God looks down upon this world of ours, He does not see may different religions or faiths by which men live. He does not see even one of them.....Christianity divided as it is into many different sects, groups, or denominations.
This division among the Christian people did not originate with God. It is not recognized in the scriptures.
For if we read in Psalms 14:....we come to the conclusion that in God's sight there are in the world but 2 classes of people.
Verse 2 says....."The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God".

"Here is the patience of the saints...here are they that keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus", (Revelation 14:12)

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

And this dangerous idea stems, from the false deception of ....."Once Saved, Always Saved"

Jay T - would you mind telling me the difference, scripturally, between the saint's position before God vs. the saint's practical state down here?

I firmly believe you are confused of the saint's position before God because of what Christ did at Calvary.

Thanks

 

[Jay T]

Re: Chapter and verse Please

And this dangerous idea stems, from the false deception of ....."Once Saved, Always Saved"

would you mind telling me the difference, scripturally, between the saint's position before God

Revelation 14:4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God".

[quote:77563] vs. the saint's practical state down here?

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law".

"For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth", (Romans 10:4).

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2:12 TEACHING US ...that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, WE SHOULD LIVE ....soberly, righteously, and godly, IN THIS PRESENT WORLD".

I firmly believe you are confused of the saint's position before God because of what Christ did at Calvary.

[/quote:77563]
Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?"

 

[AVBunyan]

Position vs. Practical

Well Ja-T - thanks for teh resposne - you kind of touched on some practical but no standin - those folks in Revelation were isarael during the tribulation so they don't count.

Here is what I was aluding to - I posted this somewhere - myabe review is in order here:

Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State

I think one of the reasons people are confused about eternal security and their Christian walk is that they confuse Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State.

Position and Standing
This is how God sees you after he saved you and put you in His dear Son and seated you in heavenly places in Christ. God knows that because of the sin nature in us He has to declare us righteous even though we are not. God can do this because Christ has taken our place at Calvary and on this basis God declares us righteous. So “in the books†the saint, from God’s standpoint, is perfect, as though he never sinned or ever will sin. It has to be this way because if not we have no hope!

Practical and State
This is how we are down here. We are still stuck in these vile bodies that likes to sin (Rom. 7). Because of the sin nature still in us we are in a fight daily. So, most of the time our state is a wreck. Sins are associated with our state.

I think what people do is look at their “state†and are counting on their “state†to ultimately determine their “standing†before God.

Hey gang, if you are saved the standing is settled. Does this mean you can quit now that Jesus “took and passed the final exam for you� No, we should strive to be all that God has called us to be.

Our duty then?

Doctrine – Ephesians chapters 1-3 tells you your standing in Christ. Then, Eph. 4-6 tells you how to walk because of that standing. Eph. 4:1: “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called.â€Â

In other words, “Now that you are perfect in Christ, walk your position heavenly position down here.†Up there (heaven) is victory, holiness, forgiveness, and assurance. Are you going to fail down here? Yes, so by the power of the Spirit and the instruction from the word as it is read and preached from the pulpit we are equipped to walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called.

What happens when one doesn’t’ know his standing. He looks at his state. One day it is Alabama, one day it is Oregon, and the next day it is New York. No stability and assurance there. Then he begins to try harder, goes up and down in his walk, gets discouraged, and finally is in despair because he thinks his state will determine his standing. A lot of time he even gives up because he gets too discouraged.

When a saint understands his standing and grace then he is so thankful, assured, and comforted that he is able to endure his vile flesh for he knows he is safe. He is on guard and prepared for he knows it will take the power of God to finish the work that has been done (Phil 1:6).

Now that was long and boring to some but I trust it will encourage those who struggle in this area. And lets face it – we all have a tendency to get discouraged in trying to live the Christian life and we forget that our standing guarantees God’s acceptance of us in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless