Bible Study "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

[AVBunyan]

Grace

and what about 1 Cor. 3:10-15?

Such an intrepretation surely allows for a license to sin! (Jude 3-4)

For lost people it does for saved people we follow:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Saved people understand grace and what grace teaches. Lost folks don't understand grace so therefore they live by the law.

 

[archer]

The result of God's grace in a person's life is a divine constraint to holiness. The grace of God teaches that denying the ungodliness and wordly lust, he should live soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world(Titus)2:11. The remembrance of what our sins cost the Savior makes us hate sin with a new passion. Far from encouraging us to sin, as some maintain, the grace of God provides the strongest possible reason why he should not sin.

 

[archer]

Every child of God was chosen in Christ before the foundations of the world (Eph 1:4). The Fathers election and predestination of his own insure the eventual salvation and eternal preservation (Romans 8:30, John 6:37).
Salvation depends, not on what we do for God, but on what he has done for us. It depends on the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross. That was a perfect and complete work (Heb 10:12). It cannot be added to or improved upon (Heb 10:18). To doubt eternal security is to dishonor the sufficiency of the Lord's atoning work. the believer's acceptance is in Christ, not in himself. Therefore, it is a perfect and complete acceptance (Heb 10:14). It is as eternal as Christ himself.
God knew all about us before he saved us. He knew all the sins we would ever commit. Yet he saved us just the same. When Jesus died, He died for all our sins, past, present and future. Actually when He died they were all future and He died for them all. So the penalty for all these sins has been paid once. God will not demand payment twice.

 

[element80]

and what about 1 Cor. 3:10-15?

Such an intrepretation surely allows for a license to sin! (Jude 3-4)

At first glance, it migh tseem that way, but there are other parts of the Bible that adress this issue. I just didn't mention them because they weren't relevent to the argument at the time. Paul addresses this in Romans when he says "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increas? By no means!"

 

[Jay T]

and what about 1 Cor. 3:10-15?

3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Would the Christian world take heed of this....in regards to Sunday worship services.....which is a foundation Jesus Christ NEVER laid.

 

[Jay T]

What do you mean that there is no salvation while comminting any known sins?

32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...

 

[AVBunyan]

If you can lose it then maybe you've missed it

If You Believe You Can Lose Your Salvation…
It Is Possible You May Have Missed Calvary

There is much talk today about losing salvation. The issue is not that can one lose his salvation but the truth of the matter is the real issue is they don’t know what really happened at Calvary. These people don’t understand at all the doctrine of salvation.

The heart of the matter is how is the sinner brought back into the proper standing so that he can have fellowship with God. To put it more simply, how is a man saved today. Man’s dilemma is how can he become righteous before God. In order for the sinner to spend eternity with God he must be holy before God (Heb. 12:14; Hab. 1:13). The sinner has to be reconciled and justified before God in order to spend eternity with God.

Part I. Let’s first look at the condition of the unsaved man. He is lost (II Cor. 4:3), having no hope (Eph. 2:12), separated (Isa. 59:2), unregenerate (Titus 3:5), darkened Eph. 4:18, unprofitable (Rom. 3:12), and under the wrath of God (John 3:36), and in the flesh Rom. 8:8. He is stuck in the mud big time. A dead man cannot pull himself up out of the miry muck for he is dead!

Part II. Without going into all the doctrine of salvation let’s just look at what God did to the sinner. There were several things that God did to bring the sinner into the family of God. By a supernatural work of God the sinner was reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10), made righteous (Rom. 3:22), justified (Rom. 3:24), and redeemed (Gal. 3:13). Then as a result some more things happened: the saint was sealed (Eph. 2:6), seated (Eph. 2:6), saved Eph. 2:8, adopted (Eph. 1:5), quickened (Eph. 2:5), circumcised (Col. 2: 11), raised up (Eph. 2:6), forgiven (Col. 1:14), blessed (Eph. 1:3), accepted (Eph. 1:6), sanctified (Col. 1:30), put into the body of Christ and made to be bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (Eph. 5:30) and glorified (Rom. 8:30). This is quite a work, I might say.

Now the above fourteen things (and probably more) happened instantaneously when God saved the sinner. So, the people who say they can lose their salvation are saying that they or God can or will undo all of Part II and go back to Part I. Now let’s see how one can lose their salvation. When we talk of one losing their salvation we are talking about the person in Part II. We are talking about the one who lived after Calvary and before the Tribulation period who had at least 14 different miraculous things done to him regarding his salvation. Instead of listing all the verses you have used in the past I will just list where they are found. When we talk about one losing his salvation we are not directing it to:

1. Jews or Gentiles under the Old Testament Law before Calvary (Gen. - Mal.).

2. Jews and Gentile during the gospels, which basically fall into the first category of being before Calvary (Gospels).

3. Unbelieving Jews Paul was directing Hebrews 3 and 5 to (Hebrews).

4. The 12 tribes scattered abroad in James, which doctrinally deals with the tribulation period (Hebrews thru Revelation).

5. Unbelieving Jew or Gentile during the Tribulation period – primarily the book of Revelation.

Most of the verses you use to try and prove a saint can lose his salvation in this age of grace are found in the above books to in Paul’s epistles (except Hebrews of Paul wrote Hebrews).

The person we want you to show to us that can lose their salvation is that blood-bought redeemed sinner after Calvary where Christ died for their sins.

Let’s look at this – we have a sinner saved by grace today and falls into the Part II category (redeemed, saved, regenerated, sealed, etc.). At some point in his life he loses his salvation based upon some mysterious way that you have conjured up (whatever that may be). I am assuming at that point he becomes unreconciled, made unrighteous, unjustified, unredeemed. Then as a result of his “unpardonable sin†or whatever criteria you have dreamed up for one to lose his salvation he becomes unsealed, unseated, unsaved, unadopted, unquickened, uncircumcised, unraised, unforgiven, unblessed, unaccepted, unsanctified, unglorified again, and finally, kicked out of Christ’s physical body! In other words this saint loses his salvation by doing something or a bunch of things??? And then all that God did for him (Part II) gets undone! The poor ex-saint is back to Part I again!

Let’s carry this further – now the poor, lost, ex-saint gets saved again!!! Now God reapplies all of Part II and all is ok – but then he blows it again and all is undone again and he is back to Part I!!! And then he repents and he’s back to Part II! Does anyone see how ridiculous this is getting? If you can give me one example of this happening in the scriptures I might listen. I know you will say that once he loses it he can never get it back again – yes, real neat system you have there.

The problem (or blessing) is this – the sinner was reconciled by the DEATH OF CHRIST. The sinner was JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST and made RIGHTEOUS and SEALED UNTILL the DAY OF REDEMPTION – DONE FOREVER and nothing you can do can undo that!

Now, you can show me where a man before Calvary does not have this blessing and that a man in the tribulation does not have this blessing but you can’t show me in Paul’s epistles during this age of grace after Calvary that a man can fall out of what God put him into today!

If you still think you can lose your salvation then you are doing something to lose your salvation and you are not trusting Christ to keep you. You say, “I believed on Christ and he will do his part but I have to do my part or keep from doing something that will cause me to fall away.†Then if that is the case then you are still trusting yourself to endure to the end so in reality you are not trusting Christ at all you are counting on you to hold out till the end, which is, works salvation, which is a sure ticket to hell.

Instead of trying to prove you can lose it why not spend some time seeing what really took place at Calvary and then you would not be spending time trying to show people you can lose it.

May God bless

 

[Jay T]

Re: If you can lose it then maybe you've missed it

Instead of trying to prove you can lose it why not spend some time seeing what really took place at Calvary and then you would not be spending time trying to show people you can lose it.

It is because God does not want people to fall for Satan's deceptions of "Once Saved, Always Saved"....as did Adam and Eve ?

That Eternal Life is based on conditions, of obedience ?

 

[element80]

Re: If you can lose it then maybe you've missed it

Instead of trying to prove you can lose it why not spend some time seeing what really took place at Calvary and then you would not be spending time trying to show people you can lose it.

It is because God does not want people to fall for Satan's deceptions of "Once Saved, Always Saved"....as did Adam and Eve ?

That Eternal Life is based on conditions, of obedience ?

What do you mean "as did Adam and Eve"? Adam and Eve were never saved. They had nothing to be saved from. You can't use Adam and Eve as an argument for losing your salvation.

 

[Jay T]

Re: If you can lose it then maybe you've missed it

It is because God does not want people to fall for Satan's deceptions of "Once Saved, Always Saved"....as did Adam and Eve ?

That Eternal Life is based on conditions, of obedience ?[/quote]

What do you mean "as did Adam and Eve"? Adam and Eve were never saved. They had nothing to be saved from. You can't use Adam and Eve as an argument for losing your salvation.[/quote]True...Salvation must proceed eternal life.
Salvation is from, the power of sin....and once a person has overcome sinful pracitces (thru the power of God, which is grace), their destination is heaven.

Sin result is ...(eternal ) Romans 6:23.

Adam and Eve lost their eternal life, as a result of sin.
They needed a Savior, to save them from sins penalty.
So, yes, they needed to be 'saved' ....to regain their immortal life back again. Even though they must suffer the consequences of their sin which was temporary .

 

[Judy]

• Romans 8:30. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.[/*:m:a7bfa]

This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

• 33. Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
  34. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.[/*:m:a7bfa]

I believe that the answer to the questions in verses 33-34, is no one will because Christ is our avocate, and the one who died for us, He is the one who comdemns. So we have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

Our enternal security is based on God's love for those He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father and sealed by the Holy Spirit. :D

Ephesians 4:30 Tell us that believers are "sealed for the day of Redemption." If believers do not have eternal security, The sealing could not truly be unto the day of Redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. :-?

John 3:15-16, Tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the bible would be in error.

 

[element80]

1 Cor inthinas 5 talks about expelling an immoral borther. Verse 5, in paricular, says "hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." Since the word "brother" is used, we know that this immoral perosn is a Christian. This verse shows that even when you're bad enough that your fellow Christians have handed you over to Satan, your spirit is still saved.

 

[Jay T]

John 3:15-16, Tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the bible would be in error.

Not so !
Eternal life has always been based, on conditional obedience.
Adam and Eve had eternal life...UNTIL...they committed sin.

The Bible plainly shows that God can (and will) take names 'OUT' of the book of life.
32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. (Exodus )
(What book ? )
Rev. 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life..."

Rev. 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall [take away his part out of the book of life], and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Khristeeanos]

1 Cor inthinas 5 talks about expelling an immoral borther. Verse 5, in paricular, says "hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." Since the word "brother" is used, we know that this immoral perosn is a Christian. This verse shows that even when you're bad enough that your fellow Christians have handed you over to Satan, your spirit is still saved.

You must realize that such an intrepretation is a license to sin!

Here is the passage you quote:

11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

The context says they claim to be Christians, but they aren't. Here is further proof:

13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.â€Â

The man is clearly called "wicked!" It is not possible for this man to be a Christian because he is called wicked and we know that the wicked will not be in heaven:

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:

Besides, here is what the Bible says about this man:

5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It says his spirit "may be saved," not that he will be saved.

Here is another place in the same epistle where it uses that term:

1 Corinthians 10:32-34
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God–even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

With your intrepretation of this text, Paul is doing all these things trying to save people, when they are already saved. Such is not true! The people are not saved and Paul is trying to save them.

 

[AVBunyan]

Eternal life

1. Eternal life has always been based, on conditional obedience.
Adam and Eve had eternal life...UNTIL...they committed sin.

2. The Bible plainly shows that God can (and will) take names 'OUT' of the book of life.

3. Rev. 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life..."

4. Rev. 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall [take away his part out of the book of life], and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Hi Jay - its me again!

1. To use Adam and Eve as an example of losing salvation is stretching it a bit don't you think? There are about a million things wrong with using them as examples. First - they were never in the body of Christ as Paul has revealed in Ephesians. Second - I don't see where Christ had died for their sins yet. Plus I don't see that they were even saved in a sense that folks are today. Other than that your example makes for interesting conversation. Again this kind of reasoning just makes my claim true that many folks today do no have a clear understanding of what took place at Calvary according to what Paul preached in I Cor. 15:1-5.

2. True - somebody's names will come out but no where does he say he will take saints out of Christ's body once they are put in by a work of the Spirit (Eph. 1-3).

3. Those tribulation saints will get clothed in white raiment - I am clothed in the rightesousness of Christ (Rom. 3:22). Not sure why you want to reach into the future during the Great Tribulation (which has nothing to do with body of Christ truths) to get an example of church age salvation for today.

4. Not sure why you want to reach into the future during the Great Tribulation (which has nothing to do with body of Christ truths) to get an example of church age salvation for today.

Jay - I keep seeing a pure works salvation in your reasoning - I think that is contrary to the teachings Christ gave to the apostle to the Gentiles - Paul.

Nice chatting - good bye for now :D

 

[AVBunyan]

Good point

Ephesians 4:30 Tell us that believers are "sealed for the day of Redemption." If believers do not have eternal security, The sealing could not truly be unto the day of Redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. :-?

Excellent point - I think it went unnoticed but still a great point.

God bless :D

 

[Jay T]

1 Cor inthinas 5 talks about expelling an immoral borther. Verse 5, in paricular, says "hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." Since the word "brother" is used, we know that this immoral perosn is a Christian. This verse shows that even when you're bad enough that your fellow Christians have handed you over to Satan, your spirit is still saved.

You must realize that such an intrepretation is a license to sin!

PRAISE GOD !

That is exactly what they idea behind OSAS is !

Satan wants people to believe that God will ignore some small sin, and let people into heaven anyway.....so, Satan get people to keep committing, the little sins.

 

[Khristeeanos]

[quote="DIME Ministries":eeeb2]1 Cor inthinas 5 talks about expelling an immoral borther. Verse 5, in paricular, says "hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." Since the word "brother" is used, we know that this immoral perosn is a Christian. This verse shows that even when you're bad enough that your fellow Christians have handed you over to Satan, your spirit is still saved.

You must realize that such an intrepretation is a license to sin!

PRAISE GOD !

That is exactly what they idea behind OSAS is !

Satan wants people to believe that God will ignore some small sin, and let people into heaven anyway.....so, Satan get people to keep committing, the little sins.[/quote:eeeb2]
Yes, that is true. But let's be honest. There are more people who desire holiness and believe in OSAS than those who use OSAS as a license to sin.

 

[Jay T]

That is exactly what they idea behind OSAS is !

Satan wants people to believe that God will ignore some small sin, and let people into heaven anyway.....so, Satan get people to keep committing, the little sins.

Yes, that is true. But let's be honest. There are more people who desire holiness and believe in OSAS than those who use OSAS as a license to sin.

Do you realize that OSAS is found in churches, that hold Sunday worship services ?

And does not the vast majority of the Christian world observe Sunday worship services ?

And, does not the Bible says that the majority, are always wrong...regarding religious matters ?

 

[Free]

I don't believe in OSAS for the following reasons:

Acts 20:30, "and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

This doesn't mean that they are losing their salvation, it just means that poepe are leading them astray with false doctrine. It does not say that because of this, the are no longer a child of God

But look at what else Paul says in there:

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.

Need I post Scripture concerning the Bible's veiw of false teachers? Paul says that "from among your own selves," which would mean some from among those who are saved already. Not only would they teach twisted things, they would lead others down the path of error as well.

1 Tim. 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,"

Again, this does not say they will lose their salvation. If you read further, the verse mentions that these decievers will teach them that they must abstain from certain types of food, and cannot marry. This suggests that they aren't converting to a different religion, they are just placing their faith in the distorted teachings of thses men, rather then the freedom they experience through God.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

Actually, it does say that they will lose their salvation, through devotion to false teaching. The word used speaks of "departing" or "apostacy".

The portion of your quote which I bolded is in need of some serious explanation. How can you say that "they are just placing their faith in..."? That is to lose one's faith. No one is talking about converting to a different religion, we are talking about one losing faith in Christ, which would result in departing and apostacizing from the faith. To place one's "faith in the distorted teachings of thses men," which Paul says are the "doctrine's of demons," is to lose salvation.

Unless you can explain to me how one can "pay attention to" or devote themselves to doctrines of demons and still remain saved. Salvation would then truely be a license to sin.

The word used for "paying attention" (NASB) is prosecho in Greek. This word carries the meanings "to be attentive to," "to apply one's self to," "to attach one's self to," "to cleave," "to be addicted to," or "to be devoted to". Paul uses this word in 1 Tim. 3:8 in speaking of deacons not being "addicted to much wine".

This is a very serious issue Paul is talking about. And his point is that people can, and will, lose their salvation.

Also notice how Paul closes this chapter:

1Ti 4:16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

This directly implies that if one does not persist in keeping a close watch for false teachings, that one may not end up being saved.

2 Pet. 2:20-21, "20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."

I think these verses mean thet God would rather have us not accept Him at all, than to do so and go back to our sinful lifestyles. I don't think that this means they are no longer saved

This verse is pretty clearly saying that if one is saved, having "escaped the defilements of the world," knowing "the way of righteousness," but gets caught up in those things again, that they are worse off then they were prior to "knowing the way of righteousness". In other words, once saved, if one becomes a slave again to sin, they are worse off then when they weren't saved.

2 Pet. 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,"

That one is to be on guard and watchful for false prophets is throughout the NT. Why the warning to stand firm in the faith and be alert if the doctrine of OSAS is true?

Becasue God doesn't want us to live horrible lives after we accept Him, he wants us to honor Him with our lives.

Of course he does, but what is being said is consistent with what I've posted above: that we are to always be on guard for false prophets and teachers since following there error can cause one to "depart" or "fall from your own steadfastness".