once saved always saved

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother Jethro Bodine, you seem to speak of being saved here in the present tense, but below you seem to say that one must endure to the very end to be saved. Which is it.

Both.

It’s hard to keep up with your reasoning when you seem to waffle so much on whether you’re saved today, and possibly lost tomorrow.

How many times does non-OSAS have to tell you that you are saved as long as you have faith? You get all that salvation is on the Day of Wrath if/when you pass safely through the fires of Judgment. For now we have all that salvation is in this life. We get it all on the Day of Judgment....if we continue in our faith to that Day.

That’s what non-OSAS’ face as to the faith they have from one day until the next until one day they wake up and realize that it’s Christ in them that qualifies their presence to the throne of Grace; not their self perceived self-righteousness of keeping that which they have been given.

When someone makes this argument, let me know, okay?

None of these say 'you do not have to believe and endure to the very end to be saved'.
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...r-1-22-and-5-5-mean.56185/page-6#post-1002059

Here you say:
“If I continue in my faith to the very end--the faith that secures the forgiveness of God for me--then, 'yes', I will be saved on the Day of Wrath. And my family will be saved if they, too, put their faith in Christ's forgiveness and endure in it to the end.”
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/losing-salvation.56296/page-3#post-1001297

Another place you say you were saved through the 700 club.
“Several months later we got saved through the 700 Club.”
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...the-real-toronto-blessing.56345/#post-1002715

Stop scratching and start listening.

 

[iLOVE]

Although I agree with you on many points, I see you are convoluting the whole "righteousness" idea.

Let's discuss this point.

I know we are taught that we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, however, let's examine some scriptures along this line of thinking.



For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Abraham obeyed what God told him to do and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

Without Abraham obeying God and taking Isaac up on the mountain to be sacrificed, then it would not have been counted to him as righteousness.

The Lord didn't do the work of obeying for Abraham.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

It is Jesus with in us expressing His life through us in obedience to God that make us a righteous person, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If we never obey the leading of the Holy Spirit to walk in the righteous works that God predestined us to walk in before the foudation of the world, then we can expect to hear these words on the day of Judgement -


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-46


...you did not do it


JLB

Abraham's heart only considered the supernatural ability of God. (A hardened heart is hardened because you allow your thinking to be dominated by the natural instead of the supernatural. See and read Romans chapter 4 that has an in depth study on Abrahams faith - not the book of James.) Abraham faith knew his son would be resurrected. Just prior to that the scripture says he lifted up is eyes and then told the men travelling with him and his son that he along with his son would return. Abraham faith knew his son would be resurrected.

But what did Abraham see when he lifted up his eyes? God showed him a preview of Jesus crucifixion and His day John 8:56 NIV. Abraham and his son sacrifice location is just approximately 100 ft. from the crucifixion of our savior Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

Do you see how this makes it only possible for OSAS to argue that believers can never habitually sin again, not that they can do that and still be saved?

I have never heard this taught at all. Even Calvinism does not say this. Even Calvinism leaves room for one who backslides. What Calvinism and every teaching I have heard says that if one backslides the Lord does not reject them but will bring them home, back into the fold.
This is the picture of the Shepard with 100 sheep and one goes astray. The Shepard leaves the 99 and goes and gets the 1 who went astray and carries them back to the fold.
He didn't leave that 1 to be eaten by the wolves or to fall off a cliff. That is the Good Shepard, He does not allow them to perish.
Would you allow your child to perish if there was anything you could do to stop it?
God is not like the woman who adopted the little boy from Russia and when he didn't live up to her standards tried to ship him back to where he came from.
I don't see God as being the parent that is not capable of straightening His own kids out so that they do not perish.
If He could not keep order in His own house He wouldn't even qualify to be an Elder let alone the High Priest.

 

[Deborah13]

God knows when you're purposely rejecting his forgiveness. When one is caught in sin and they are not seeking God's forgiveness, no matter what reason they are sinning for, they are purposely rejecting God and his word and have chosen to live a lifestyle of sin. But the point is, you can't do that and still be saved on the Day of Wrath. But many sects of OSAS say you can, even though John plainly said the person who is habitually sinning is not born again.

Do you see how this makes it only possible for OSAS to argue that believers can never habitually sin again, not that they can do that and still be saved? But that is what Eugene says, that no matter how bad you are 'once a son, always a son'. Well, John says if you are a bad son you ain't even a son. Therefore, OSAS has to argue that they were never saved to begin with (which some do). Meanwhile, non-OSAS says the habitual sinner, whom John says is not born again, could have been saved but decided to reject God's grace somewhere along the line and are now not saved.

Jethro, that person who is an alcoholic may not be rejecting God's forgiveness. Why do you think they must be rejecting God's forgiveness?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have never heard this taught at all.

Hmm....I've heard it quite often in forums over the years. I'm even sure it got argued just a bit in this forum in recent months.

Even Calvinism does not say this. Even Calvinism leaves room for one who backslides. What Calvinism and every teaching I have heard says that if one backslides the Lord does not reject them but will bring them home, back into the fold.
This is the picture of the Shepard with 100 sheep and one goes astray. The Shepard leaves the 99 and goes and gets the 1 who went astray and carries them back to the fold.
He didn't leave that 1 to be eaten by the wolves or to fall off a cliff. That is the Good Shepard, He does not allow them to perish.
Would you allow your child to perish if there was anything you could do to stop it?

Sometimes God does do that. Sometimes he sees them excommunicated, like the indecent fellow at Corinth (and the Prodigal son). God did not go chasing after him...not until they came back to him in repentance.

God is not like the woman who adopted the little boy from Russia and when he didn't live up to her standards tried to ship him back to where he came from.
I don't see God as being the parent that is not capable of straightening His own kids out so that they do not perish.
If He could not keep order in His own house He wouldn't even qualify to be an Elder let alone the High Priest.

(So now you're back to OSAS. )

An elder has no control over whether his kids get saved or not. The reason an elder can't have children who don't believe is not because he is showing he does not have ministerial power to save them and, therefore, should not be in ministry for that reason. Unsaved kids and wife have the potential to be problematic and hinder effective ministry. And certainly, apart from the salvation issue, if his household is out of control he can't be expected to maintain order in the church. For these reasons don't install elders who have unbelieving and/or rebellious kids, or unsaved wife. I actually think it's kind of a test to see who God is really wanting to become an elder and who he does not. Not because they're showing they don't have ministerial power to save people, but simply as a sign from God he is not calling them to that office. If a candidates kids and wife believe then you know he certainly can be considered for the office.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, that person who is an alcoholic may not be rejecting God's forgiveness. Why do you think they must be rejecting God's forgiveness?

I'm pretty sure I said it's because they're not asking for it, if that be the case. That's how you reject the grace of God. You reject it by not reaching out for it. You can't be saved if you reject the grace of God.

 

[iLOVE]

When Christians don't know "Grace" they threaten you with "Law"...You better do this - You better do that - You better not say that - God is going to get you. God must be rejecting you.

 

[Deborah13]

But anyway, I think willful means a repeated, unrepentant, lifestyle of sinful behavior.

I think you are incorrect in your definition of the word "willful sin", in the Greek.
And...
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
It says, CANNOT sin, period.

Where do you see the word "habitual sin"? It's not there.
Is there another scripture that uses a word translated as 'habitual sin'?

 

[Deborah13]

I'm pretty sure I said it's because they're not asking for it, if that be the case. That's how you reject the grace of God. You reject it by not reaching out for it. You can't be saved if you reject the grace of God.

I do not agree.
One can only fall from grace by rejecting the blood of Christ and scripture defines that as
believing that Jesus' sacrifice was NOT sufficient. That His shed blood was NOT sufficient to remove sin. Not just their sin but anyone's sin. They would see His blood as a common thing. The same as the blood of bulls and goats, which could never remove sin.
Do you see a difference?
That is the view of an unbelieving Jew. They don't believe that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to remove anyone's sin.

 

[jeff77]

Closed for Moderator review

 

[jeff77]

Please remember to respect your fellow members and the ToS. Thank you. This is not directed at the last poster.

7) Do not post opinions of another member's claim of Christian faith. (ToS 2.4)
Publicly judging someone as not being a Christian and/or not following Christ unless they themselves claim not be a Christian is disallowed. That's between them and the Lord. This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general.

 

[JLB]

Abraham's heart only considered the supernatural ability of God. (A hardened heart is hardened because you allow your thinking to be dominated by the natural instead of the supernatural. See and read Romans chapter 4 that has an in depth study on Abrahams faith - not the book of James.) Abraham faith knew his son would be resurrected. Just prior to that the scripture says he lifted up is eyes and then told the men travelling with him and his son that he along with his son would return. Abraham faith knew his son would be resurrected.

But what did Abraham see when he lifted up his eyes? God showed him a preview of Jesus crucifixion and His day John 8:56 NIV. Abraham and his son sacrifice location is just approximately 100 ft. from the crucifixion of our savior Lord Jesus Christ.

I really don't know what this has do with anything that I posted concerning practicing righteousness and our "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ".

Could you comment on the fact that it is those who walk with God in obedience, and practice righteousness are in fact righteous.

Believe carries the idea of obey.

If you disobey it is because you do not believe.

Righteous people practice righteous works, because the Righteous One is expressing His righteous Life through them.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When Christians don't know "Grace" they threaten you with "Law"...You better do this - You better do that - You better not say that - God is going to get you. God must be rejecting you.

In the church today it seems more that when someone doesn't know grace they think grace is a license to sin. That license is taught as 'it's okay if you keep doing what you're doing because salvation is by faith alone'.

Grace was not given to us to excuse sin. Grace was given to us to say 'no' to ungodliness. It seems many do not use it for that, but rather to excuse sin.

I think you are incorrect in your definition of the word "willful sin", in the Greek.
And...
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
It says, CANNOT sin, period.

Where do you see the word "habitual sin"? It's not there.
Is there another scripture that uses a word translated as 'habitual sin'?

Think about it Deborah. If John means only born again people don't sin then not a single one of us is born again. Obviously, he is talking about unrepentant sin. IOW, a continuing lifestyle of sin. People who commit sin in that regard are the ones who are not born again. That means it's impossible for OSAS say you can go back to your old life and you are still saved. John plainly says you are not born again if you do that. So OSAS has to stop arguing that you are saved no matter what. That can't be true. If the 'no matter what' is a lifestyle of unrepentant sin John says you are not born again. People who are not born again are not saved. What OSAS should be arguing is that born again people can not return to their lifestyle of sin and, since they can't do that, can't become un-born again. Because if they did do that, John says they are not born again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What OSAS should be arguing is that born again people can not return to their lifestyle of sin...

Which opens up a whole 'nuther can of worms.

And while we contemplate that let's listen...

It has nothing to do with OSAS. It's just a nice piece of music.

 

[Deborah13]

Hmm....I've heard it quite often in forums over the years. I'm even sure it got argued just a bit in this forum in recent months.
Sometimes God does do that. Sometimes he sees them excommunicated, like the indecent fellow at Corinth (and the Prodigal son). God did not go chasing after him...not until they came back to him in repentance.

That depends on how you view the going after. That is exactly what Paul was doing, going after that man. He said turn him over, let him suffer. The Prodigal is the same, OK, just see how it is out there in the world, just see how well you can make it on your own. What happened in both cases? They both came back.

(So now you're back to OSAS. )

No, I don't know what I am really. I'm kind of like Spurgeon, he was osas but he said himself that he saw scriptures that pointed to one might be able to totally reject Jesus. But that he didn't see in scripture where anyone had actually been saved and done that. Neither do I.
Andrew Wommack, says the same thing also because of the two scriptures in Hebrews. He believes one would have to be very mature in the Lord, operating in the gifts, etc. and just stop believing in Christ period. Just write Him off like He was a false prophet or teacher. So he is not osas.

An elder has no control over whether his kids get saved or not. The reason an elder can't have children who don't believe is not because he is showing he does not have ministerial power to save them and, therefore, should not be in ministry for that reason.

I don't see anywhere in scripture where is says the elder's children must be believers?
That was not my point about an elder's house. Moving on....

Think about it Deborah. If John means only born again people don't sin then not a single one of us is born again. Obviously, he is talking about unrepentant sin.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
So are you saying that after we repent (change our mind) we need an advocate to plead our case with the Father?
If so, I am not saying you are wrong, how does that work?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't see anywhere in scripture where is says the elder's children must be believers?
That was not my point about an elder's house. Moving on....

Titus 1:6 NASB

(noted for for your information, not for further discussion)

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
So are you saying that after we repent (change our mind) we need an advocate to plead our case with the Father?
If so, I am not saying you are wrong, how does that work?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Christ's sacrifice is always there on the altar for us to make our appeal to when we sin. If it was not then every time we sin Christ would have to re-sacrifice himself for that sin, which we know he does not. Some may argue that's because by the one sacrifice we were made perfect and don't need Christ's sacrifice anymore. If that were true, John would not tell us to ask for forgiveness when we sin. When we do that we are making our appeal once again to the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of that sin, not so we can be saved all over again, but so we can be made clean of our sin.

 

[iLOVE]

I really don't know what this has do with anything that I posted concerning practicing righteousness and our "becoming the righteousness of God in Christ".

Could you comment on the fact that it is those who walk with God in obedience, and practice righteousness are in fact righteous.

Believe carries the idea of obey.

If you disobey it is because you do not believe.

Righteous people practice righteous works, because the Righteous One is expressing His righteous Life through them.


JLB

We accepted Christ when we got saved. But as a Christian we are in a process of sanctification when the grace of God brings about the transformation of life and you are now being saved. The way you experience being saved, having already becoming saved, is by the power of God as it is attached to the Cross of Christ. When you cut off the Cross of Christ the power of the Gospel doesn’t reach your life or situation. Now that you have received salvation, God now wants you to experience His power which is connected to the Cross that saved you.

Yes obedience is the key to the blessings and that includes tithing and offerings.
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, Romans 11:30 NIV

You can never do anything to earn your right standing with God. It has been given to you as a free gift. Jesus has made you righteous, and you are righteous by faith. That is why Jesus died for you. Even though you messed up, you are born again, and you are already right with God. He loves you, and He isn’t mad at you. If you will look to Jesus, He will help you out with this situation.”

I’m telling you that once you receive His grace, you will begin to notice it everywhere! Grace empowers you not to sin. When you experience an avalanche of His grace, you will be so overwhelmed with His goodness, you will not want to sin!

There have been many misconceptions in the Body of Christ concerning what grace is and what it is not. Some people view grace as an excuse to live a sinful lifestyle, while others view it as an excuse to be lazy Christians. These misconceptions about grace cloud the true purpose and value of the grace of God upon our lives. Grace is not merely a subject, doctrine, or teaching; grace is a person. It has a face and it is the face of Jesus. Grace describes all that He has done and all that He is.

JBL you ask the question, "If you disobey it is because you do not believe." The scripture says you can have belief and unbelief at the same time.

Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" Mark 9:24 NIV

Psalm 89:17 NLT says, "Our power is based on your favor."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I’m telling you that once you receive His grace, you will begin to notice it everywhere! Grace empowers you not to sin. When you experience an avalanche of His grace, you will be so overwhelmed with His goodness, you will not want to sin!

It depends on how strong your faith in God's grace is.

I know that people can receive God's grace in a far less favorable position of great faith and abandonment to that grace. The result is their growth gets stunted, if not halted all together. I see this in people who are very much saved but who still hold old grudges against God. They're still debating truth and justice with God. They don't flourish in the grace they have received. They are the one's in danger of failing.

 

[Willie T]

I would amen it if Willie was talking about water baptism, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about being submersed in the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

 

[Deborah13]

All I want to say at this point is that many, many of God's people should be very thankful that God looks at the intent of a man's heart when He observes their actions.

This is one of the ways I believe our Advocator represents us. He says to the Father something like this.....
He is one of ours.
My righteousness has justified and sanctified him by My blood shed at the cross.
He is not perfect but I AM.

This is how I believe Moses was the Advocate for God's people then.
They are our people.
Please take me in their place. Blot me out not them.
They are not perfect but neither am I.