once saved always saved

[iLOVE]

I attend a Grace church, and I am very definitely considered borderline blasphemous by several members there because I cannot accept OSAS as meaning once you get wet, you cannot dry yourself off.

LOL!

 

[Deborah13]

I've said it often and I'll say it again, they that plan to sin were never saved. Jesus told us to watch our crops and to judge the crop, grain or people, by their fruit. These were never saved in the first place and thus, do not figure in.

That statement is a good statement if I understand you correctly.
"they that PLAN to sin were never saved."
Could you give an example of someone planning to sin, when was the plan conceived?

 

[Willie T]

Is that the Greek NT in Post # 180? And I thought the KJV made things hard enough to follow. Sounds, it does, like talking,Yoda is.

 

[JLB]

And I definitely agree with that.

Do you agree that the best way to measure where we're really at with God is our behavior?

Behavior can be manufactured, as many will act nice or kind, or loving...

Love, that is to say the God kind of Love is measured by faithful obedience.

Love is expressed in the action of obedience to do for our neighbor as we would do for our self.

If we love our neighbor who is in need of food, then we will give to our neighbor some food.

For God so loved He gave...

If we love God, we will express that love in the action of giving to our neighbor what the Love of God working in us to both will and do, requires.

This is the standard of faith, righteousness and love.


This can be done without saying a word or "behaving" in any particular way.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please reconcile these two scriptures.

1Jn 3:9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,

I thought we all agreed that the 'sin' in the first verse is the habitual lifestyle of sin, not the daily struggle with sin.

The OSAS argument is (for some anyway) that even if you go back to your old lifestyle of sin, rejecting Christ, you are still saved. John says whoever does that is not born again. That means they can not be saved even though they have gone back to their old lifestyle of unrepentant sin. OSAS has no choice but to argue that a believer can not go back to their sins, not that they can still be saved if they do that.

 

[Eugene]

It means YOUR salvation is sure.....because you have strong faith.

Brother Jethro Bodine, you seem to speak of being saved here in the present tense, but below you seem to say that one must endure to the very end to be saved. Which is it. It’s hard to keep up with your reasoning when you seem to waffle so much on whether you’re saved today, and possibly lost tomorrow. That’s what non-OSAS’ face as to the faith they have from one day until the next until one day they wake up and realize that it’s Christ in them that qualifies their presence to the throne of Grace; not their self perceived self-righteousness of keeping that which they have been given.

None of these say 'you do not have to believe and endure to the very end to be saved'.
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...r-1-22-and-5-5-mean.56185/page-6#post-1002059

Here you say:
“If I continue in my faith to the very end--the faith that secures the forgiveness of God for me--then, 'yes', I will be saved on the Day of Wrath. And my family will be saved if they, too, put their faith in Christ's forgiveness and endure in it to the end.”
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/losing-salvation.56296/page-3#post-1001297

Another place you say you were saved through the 700 club.
“Several months later we got saved through the 700 Club.”
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...the-real-toronto-blessing.56345/#post-1002715

 

[Deborah13]

Lol, no.

I thought you had been reading my posts all this time. If you had, and understood them, you'd know that it is not the weakness of sin that robs you of Christ's justification. It is your conscious, repeated, willful decision to be sinful, rejecting the word of God, that will eventually do that.

I have been reading every one of your posts.
So what is you definition of WILLFUL sin?
Is it the same definition that the Greek word Willful/willfully means?
What is a Willful sin to you?

 

[Karl]

Hmmmm, I've read through this thread, someone said we have this discussion every two or three weeks and it's the same people responding, ...I'm new here and I have a question concerning this subject that I don't see has been considered or addressed, ...maybe one of you can answer if for me?

The Word states the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3, 4
Jesus said He (Holy Spirit, Comforter) would abide with me for ever. John 14:16

Question:

If I'm truly saved, born again and Ii know it (the ginōskō experiential knows [knowledge] of 1 John), if I could somehow, by my efforts, lose this salvation and be thrown into the Lake of Fire, then which of these two facts is true?

Jesus is a liar and the Holy Spirit leaves me. John 14:16
or
Jesus is not a liar and the Holy Spirit is not God and goes with me into the Lake of Fire for eternity. Acts 5:3, 4

Blessings

 

[th1b.taylor]

And again, I will say this makes Eugene's and a lot of other OSASer's argument false, that even the believer who fails and goes back to his sins is still saved.

Jethro,
Without scripture that is alignment with all scripture to press your point, you're wrong because you are using that broad brush again. All you appear to be offering is what Jethro said.

 

[Deborah13]

Is that the Greek NT in Post # 180? And I thought the KJV made things hard enough to follow. Sounds, it does, like talking,Yoda is.

LOL, my grandson has mild aspergers, now sometimes that is like talking to Yoda. Maybe that's why the YLT doesn't sound weird to me.

Sorry, one was YLT and one KJV, didn't do that on purpose.
KJV
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[th1b.taylor]

I attend a Grace church, and I am very definitely considered borderline blasphemous by several members there because I cannot accept OSAS as meaning once you get wet, you cannot dry yourself off.

Gettin' wet ain't got nuttin' to do wit anything, pilgrim. And, as though it mattered, you can tell'em Bill Taylor said so. Can I get a AMEN! :amen

 

[Deborah13]

What I'm resisting is the notion that just because a Christian reads in the Bible where it says 'do not steal' and then does not steal--because it does say that--that is somehow not a work of the Spirit in him. How ridiculous.

I agree, God's Word is a living Word. I believe that when one reads the Word with their heart For God and they read 'do not steal' that message becomes real to them and they do not desire to steal.

 

[Deborah13]

I thought we all agreed that the 'sin' in the first verse is the habitual lifestyle of sin, not the daily struggle with sin.

The OSAS argument is (for some anyway) that even if you go back to your old lifestyle of sin, rejecting Christ, you are still saved. John says whoever does that is not born again. That means they can not be saved even though they have gone back to their old lifestyle of unrepentant sin. OSAS has no choice but to argue that a believer can not go back to their sins, not that they can still be saved if they do that.

What appears to you or I as an habitual lifestyle of sin, maybe in fact, someone's daily struggle with sin.
For instance someone who is addicted to alcohol. That is a daily struggle with sin, for them.
If their drinking is not done with the intent to rebel against God but is caused by something else, is it by definition willfully sinning?
Surely they need to be healed and probably not just in the body of flesh but in their mind where the pain resides.

 

[th1b.taylor]

That statement is a good statement if I understand you correctly.
"they that PLAN to sin were never saved."
Could you give an example of someone planning to sin, when was the plan conceived?

Yes mam but I'll need you to excuse my well that I draw from for this because I know me and my history best. When I ETSed the Army I thought well of myself and with my three hundred and better dollar Boots, one hundred and better dollar shirts and my Conway Twitty hair do, I planned to take at least one young lady to breakfast and to then, spend the night at her house. I planned the entire sin filled escapade before I ever got off from my day job. I thought I deserved this treatment and the ladies paying for breakfast, my costumes and my Friday afternoon hair dos by Avon the expensive male beautician drove to begin planning next Friday and Saturday nights, that is planned sin.

On the other hand, just after I was saved I was the Driver for the Houston Branch of Nippon Express and as my MS advanced I was dragging my right leg and my right hand was weakening and I was still learning to trust God and to allow Him to conqure my pride. I dropped a three thousand dollar sofa one day and I exclaimed, using a word not fit for this forum nor for my mouth. I was in immediate need of repented forgiveness but that was not a planed sin although as I greww closer to Jesus I never use words like that any more.

I get strange looks and comments when I scream Poo Fah or Well, Spit in the Bucket! But I pray this answers and if not, knock on that block in the middle of my shoulders and I'll try to get the Splittin' Wedge a little deeper in and find the right answer.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hmmmm, I've read through this thread, someone said we have this discussion every two or three weeks and it's the same people responding, ...I'm new here and I have a question concerning this subject that I don't see has been considered or addressed, ...maybe one of you can answer if for me?

The Word states the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3, 4
Jesus said He (Holy Spirit, Comforter) would abide with me for ever. John 14:16

Question:

If I'm truly saved, born again and Ii know it (the ginōskō experiential knows [knowledge] of 1 John), if I could somehow, by my efforts, lose this salvation and be thrown into the Lake of Fire, then which of these two facts is true?

Jesus is a liar and the Holy Spirit leaves me. John 14:16
or
Jesus is not a liar and the Holy Spirit is not God and goes with me into the Lake of Fire for eternity. Acts 5:3, 4

Blessings

How 'bout the third fact you're not mentioning, that you are interpreting the first fact outside of all that the scriptures say about forever abiding in the Holy Spirit.

This is where OSAS goes wrong. It rationalizes away the plain scriptures that say you must continue in the faith you started out with to be saved on the Day of Wrath. It makes that other counsel of scripture about abiding in the Holy Spirit disappear in order to make what Jesus said mean what they say it means.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What appears to you or I as an habitual lifestyle of sin, maybe in fact, someone's daily struggle with sin.
For instance someone who is addicted to alcohol. That is a daily struggle with sin, for them.
If their drinking is not done with the intent to rebel against God but is caused by something else, is it by definition willfully sinning?
Surely they need to be healed and probably not just in the body of flesh but in their mind where the pain resides.

God knows when you're purposely rejecting his forgiveness. When one is caught in sin and they are not seeking God's forgiveness, no matter what reason they are sinning for, they are purposely rejecting God and his word and have chosen to live a lifestyle of sin. But the point is, you can't do that and still be saved on the Day of Wrath. But many sects of OSAS say you can, even though John plainly said the person who is habitually sinning is not born again.

Do you see how this makes it only possible for OSAS to argue that believers can never habitually sin again, not that they can do that and still be saved? But that is what Eugene says, that no matter how bad you are 'once a son, always a son'. Well, John says if you are a bad son you ain't even a son. Therefore, OSAS has to argue that they were never saved to begin with (which some do). Meanwhile, non-OSAS says the habitual sinner, whom John says is not born again, could have been saved but decided to reject God's grace somewhere along the line and are now not saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gettin' wet ain't got nuttin' to do wit anything, pilgrim. And, as though it mattered, you can tell'em Bill Taylor said so. Can I get a AMEN! :amen

I would amen it if Willie was talking about water baptism, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about being submersed in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes mam but I'll need you to excuse my well that I draw from for this because I know me and my history best. When I ETSed the Army I thought well of myself and with my three hundred and better dollar Boots, one hundred and better dollar shirts and my Conway Twitty hair do, I planned to take at least one young lady to breakfast and to then, spend the night at her house. I planned the entire sin filled escapade before I ever got off from my day job. I thought I deserved this treatment and the ladies paying for breakfast, my costumes and my Friday afternoon hair dos by Avon the expensive male beautician drove to begin planning next Friday and Saturday nights, that is planned sin.

On the other hand, just after I was saved I was the Driver for the Houston Branch of Nippon Express and as my MS advanced I was dragging my right leg and my right hand was weakening and I was still learning to trust God and to allow Him to conqure my pride. I dropped a three thousand dollar sofa one day and I exclaimed, using a word not fit for this forum nor for my mouth. I was in immediate need of repented forgiveness but that was not a planed sin although as I greww closer to Jesus I never use words like that any more.

I get strange looks and comments when I scream Poo Fah or Well, Spit in the Bucket! But I pray this answers and if not, knock on that block in the middle of my shoulders and I'll try to get the Splittin' Wedge a little deeper in and find the right answer.

I think I understand now what you mean by planned sin.
In your planned sin example did you know that you were sinning?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,
Without scripture that is alignment with all scripture to press your point, you're wrong because you are using that broad brush again. All you appear to be offering is what Jethro said.

So what point exactly is it that you resist? That the habitual sinner John is talking about can still be born again, or that a born again person can never become a habitual sinner?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have been reading every one of your posts.
So what is you definition of WILLFUL sin?
Is it the same definition that the Greek word Willful/willfully means?
What is a Willful sin to you?

But anyway, I think willful means a repeated, unrepentant, lifestyle of sinful behavior. Even though we've all lived in the repetition of our personal faults, it is the fact that we seek God's forgiveness when we repeat the same sin over again, and are slowly changing out of that repetitive pattern that makes that different than what John is talking about that indicates a person is not born again.

And again I will say, non-OSAS says this habitual sinner who 'practices unrighteousness', as John says, may very well of been born again at one time, but that he did not continue in the condition necessary to not become a habitual, unrepentant sinner who is not born again. That condition being that what we heard in the beginning must remain in us. If it remains in you, you will not become one who practices habitual, unrepentant unrighteousness who is not born again.