What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

One final chance to say yes?

I don't know how to make it to your understanding any simpler than has already been presented. So perhaps the message just isn't meant for you. :)
 
Blev said:
Of course Jesus is God incarnate. That is one of the basic fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith
Click to expand...

And yet there are verses, a few shared here but not all that exist, that contradict that and in Jesus' own words.
Mark 10:18

Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.



Matthew 27:46



And about three o’clock Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
John 14:28

You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I am coming to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.
Click to expand...
 
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 
God does not contradict Himself. What we need to do to rightly divide the Word of God is to look at every scripture about a subject Old testament and New, and compare them. And also keep in mind the character of God. None will contradict each other when we understand them. If something seemingly contradicts, then there is at least one or more we are not fully understanding. The most we grow in the Word the more we come to understand. And that takes time. No one has arrived yet and we are all at different stages.
 
Osgiliath said:
The position of "eternal torment" is the least defensible of all presented in this forum.
Click to expand...

Hi Osgiliath,

If this is the least defensible doctrine, then please consider a couple of verses.

Revelation 14:11

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.â€


Mark 3:29

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnationâ€â€”


2 Thessalonians 1:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


Jude 1:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


I wouldn't call these verse corrupt.

- Davies
 
StoveBolts said:
I understand that completely.

As far as the examples you gave, sometimes it's best just to not say certain things.

You may remember last year when my brother dies from Heroin. His life was a living hell. He told Mom just a few short months before he died that he was either going to die or go to prison. He knew exactly where his lifestyle was leading him, yet he never choose to repent. When we went to get some things from his house that had been ransacked, it was littered with pornography and needles. It was a horrible site.

At the funeral I was asked to say the opening prayer. There were a few hundred people there, many whom were drug addicts as well. When I prayed, I mentioned that we all make mistakes on this earth and we all make bad choices. I then asked God to be merciful on my brother, as he has been merciful to me.

My brother lived a life of hell on earth and he left a lot of pain in his wake both when he was alive and even now that he's dead. No sense telling my Mom the things she already knows. No need taking her hope away that she'll one day be with her son. No use pouring salt into her wounds.

A few years ago when Universalism was allowed on the board I was arguing with one of them and got to know him. He opened up to me and said that his girlfriend died before she knew Christ and he couldn't bear the thought of her burning for eternity in Hell. He was emotionally distraught and it was clear that he loved his deceased girlfriend very much. He was grieving, and I and others were too stupid to recognize it. Instead, we tried to be biblically correct and I'm reminded of something I learned a long time ago. One can be about as right as right can be, yet still be wrong. The man needed sympathy, not cold words.
Click to expand...

I'm very sad to here about you brother, and the pain you and your family must have endured and likely still feel. We would be putting ourselves in God's place if we were to say we knew the legal status of anyone, saved or unsaved. We hope all things though. What we can trust is that God always does what is right, and given the light we have, we should try to make the most of it and keep pointing people to Jesus to flee the wrath to come.

- Davies
 
Good morning,

I was busy today. So, I'm posting late. Here's a question for you. Was God, the Father, cruel when He was pleased to crush His Son?
Isaiah 53:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,...

God [has] appointed a day in which He will judge the world, and we sigh and cry until it shall end the reign of wickedness, and give rest to the oppressed. Brethren, we must preach the coming of the Lord, and preach it somewhat more than we have done, because it is the driving power of the gospel. Too many have kept back these truths, and thus the bone has been taken out of the arm of the gospel. Its point has been broken; its edge has been blunted. The doctrine of judgment to come is the power by which men are to be aroused. There is another life; the Lord will come a second time; judgment will arrive; the wrath of God will be revealed. Where this is not preached, I am bold to say the gospel is not preached. It is absolutely necessary to the preaching of the gospel of Christ that men be warned as to what will happen if they continue in their sins. Ho, ho, sir surgeon, you are too delicate to tell the man that he is ill! You hope to heal the sick without their knowing it. You therefore flatter them, and what happens? They laugh at you; they dance upon their own graves. At last they die! Your delicacy is cruelty; your flatteries are poisons; you are a murderer. Shall we keep men in a fool's paradise? Shall we lull them into soft slumbers from which they will awake in Hell? Are we to become helpers of their damnation by our smooth speeches? In the name of God, we will not. - Charles Spurgeon

There answer to the question, 'Is God cruel?,' is no. God is holy.

- Davies
 
Davies said:
I'm very sad to here about you brother, and the pain you and your family must have endured and likely still feel. We would be putting ourselves in God's place if we were to say we knew the legal status of anyone, saved or unsaved. We hope all things though. What we can trust is that God always does what is right, and given the light we have, we should try to make the most of it and keep pointing people to Jesus to flee the wrath to come.

- Davies
Click to expand...

We don't point out a pimple on our friends face when they already know it's there... and when we are guests for dinner, we certainly don't tell the host that the food was terrible. Why then are we so quick to pour salt in the wounds of others by telling them that which they already know... Salt in the wounds isn't speech seasoned with salt. Why? Because most often pain turns into anger and there is no healing in anger. Healing comes through showing compassion and grace toward those still living.

.02
 
there is NO 2nd chance for salvation after we die. Christ will give us unlimited chances to be saved while alive. one can harden their heart to the point. they longer feel that tug at the heart (knock on the door of our heart) GOD can/will turn us over to a reprobate mind. i do not know when that point is and nor do i care to find out. make our election and calling sure while we are alive..
 
StoveBolts said:
We don't point out a pimple on our friends face when they already know it's there... and when we are guests for dinner, we certainly don't tell the host that the food was terrible. Why then are we so quick to pour salt in the wounds of others by telling them that which they already know... Salt in the wounds isn't speech seasoned with salt. Why? Because most often pain turns into anger and there is no healing in anger. Healing comes through showing compassion and grace toward those still living.

.02
Click to expand...

Hi Jeff,

I understand grace and compassion should be shown toward those who are hurting. But tell me, do you think most people believe in hell or Satan? What do you say to a person who says, 'I don't believe in hell. Your truth is your truth.'? If Jesus is saving us, what is He saving us from? Wouldn't you agree it was sin, death, and the judgment to come? People push death to the back of their minds; we often don't grasp the depth of how bad sin is; if we took to heart the judgment to come, then we would flee to Jesus without hesitation. We would be so concerned for others who's life shows no fruit of the Spirit to tell them that Jesus loves them and desires them to come to repentance. I think it was Alistair Begg who said, 'Take away the wrath of God, and the grace and mercy of God are robbed of their meaning.' We don't need to pour salt in people's wounds, agreed, but if we talk about the righteousness of God, displayed perfectly on the cross, holding the truth with love, we will be sure to preach the whole counsel of God and be found faithful.

- Davies
 
Hi Davies,

If somebody tells me they don't believe in hell, I point out that in the Lord's prayer we are taught, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". In other words, the choices and decisions we make today can bring us in alignment with God's way, or our way. In the case of my brother, he was far from doing God's will and his life was a testimony to the hell he lived in... and the hell he created. We can't go back and undo the wrongs we committed, but we can always look forward and by doing God's will, we not only bring a little bit of heaven into our own lives, but the lives around us. In the same breath I would say that God is more in the business of transformation and his healing is wholistic. In other words, God cares about all of you in all areas of time, including now.

Scripture says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledged, but perfect love drives out fear and there is no fear in love. Our sanctification is tranformative and when we live outside of God's ways, we can learn from the wrath we bring upon ourselves. Often we are only doing what we know... what we were taught. Often we don't know how else to live. But we can rest on the promise that God's transforming love will always extend us grace, so when we want to live our lives that way, a little fear may keep us on the straight and narrow until we are granted that knowledge which transforms fear into love. To mature in Christ is to transform all areas of our lives, and for some their lives are so messed up what looks like no forward progress is being made at all, are huge spiritual leaps from the perspective of the one being transformed... and I think we need to encourage that.
 
Spring Waters: In Matthew 10.18, the Lord Jesus was not denying at all that He is God, but rather using the fact that the speaker had called Him 'good' to draw out of him the fact that if He was truly good, He was God.
 
StoveBolts said:
Hi Davies,

If somebody tells me they don't believe in hell, I point out that in the Lord's prayer we are taught, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". In other words, the choices and decisions we make today can bring us in alignment with God's way, or our way. In the case of my brother, he was far from doing God's will and his life was a testimony to the hell he lived in... and the hell he created. We can't go back and undo the wrongs we committed, but we can always look forward and by doing God's will, we not only bring a little bit of heaven into our own lives, but the lives around us. In the same breath I would say that God is more in the business of transformation and his healing is wholistic. In other words, God cares about all of you in all areas of time, including now.

Scripture says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledged, but perfect love drives out fear and there is no fear in love. Our sanctification is tranformative and when we live outside of God's ways, we can learn from the wrath we bring upon ourselves. Often we are only doing what we know... what we were taught. Often we don't know how else to live. But we can rest on the promise that God's transforming love will always extend us grace, so when we want to live our lives that way, a little fear may keep us on the straight and narrow until we are granted that knowledge which transforms fear into love. To mature in Christ is to transform all areas of our lives, and for some their lives are so messed up what looks like no forward progress is being made at all, are huge spiritual leaps from the perspective of the one being transformed... and I think we need to encourage that.
Click to expand...

Jeff,

Here is a beautiful verse from the book of Luke:

Luke 12:4-7

New King James Version (NKJV)

Jesus Teaches the Fear of God

4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
6 “Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins?[a] And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


Here we see Jesus teaching the fear of God, yet in the next sentence He says do not fear. I think these verses need to be reconciled. We should be afraid to do what is wrong because of the eternal consequences and not merely for the the consequences we suffer now. Trusting in Jesus, the One who knows how many hairs are on our head and has not forgotten one sparrow that has fallen to the ground, we can rest. The cross tells us all. It tells us what we deserve, what God thinks about sin, but it also displays His mercy. I think the best way we can encourage people in their sanctification, is by looking to the cross everyday and remembering what God has done for us.


- Davies
 
Originally Posted by Davies,

Shall we keep men in a fool's paradise? Shall we lull them into soft slumbers from which they will awake in Hell? Are we to become helpers of their damnation by our smooth speeches? In the name of God, we will not.
Click to expand...

The Scriptures do not teach of "eternal torment." Here is a fact. The Word says, "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

The remarkable thing about this is, that no one believes it, not even the ones who continually preach it. The hell-fire-and-brimstone enthusiast loudly proclaims that verse of Scripture to be true, and then abruptly and shamefully contradicts himself by maintaining that the wages of sin is ETERNAL TORMENT! But if ETERNAL TORMENT were the penalty for sin, then JESUS NEVER ATONED FOR SIN! Jesus did not suffer eternal torment! And if that is the price that God demands as punishment for sin, THEN JESUS PAID NOTHING AT ALL!


If my punishment were eternal torment, and Jesus took my place, receiving the full judgment for my sin, then it should be clear to any thinking person that He would have had to suffer eternally in hell. That is the only way the debt could be paid! News Flash: Jesus is not in hell!


If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then we must re-write the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. We must make the Bible say that, if that is what God meant. We must make the Bible say, "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely SUFFER ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL" (Genesis 2:16-17). We must correct the Word of God so that it says, "The soul that sins, it shall be eternally tormented in hell" (Ezekiel 18:4). John 3:16 must be made to correctly read, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not be eternally tormented, but spend eternity in heaven." If the wages of sin is eternal torment then Romans 5:12 must be made to say, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and eternal torment by sin; and so eternal torment passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." You will have to tear the Bible all to pieces and re-write countless passages if you say that the wages of sin is eternal torment!


"The wages of sin is death, " says the Lord. And it is true, even though the majority of men still think that the wages of sin is eternal torment, one of the most abominable and notorious lies ever told, a product of popish fraud and deception and greed. The wages of sin is actually death. And Jesus died! He met the full demands of law. He paid the debt of sin in full! He wasn't (and isn't being) eternally tormented, because that is not the wages of sin. The wages of sin is death, and Jesus paid those wages!



Those who think this way feel it satisfies their sense of justice or punishment at the expense of another. In other words, they need a sacrifice to appease the demands of their god(s).

"I desire mercy, NOT sacrifice." (Matthew 9:13)

Go learn what that means!


Those who worship the false 'IMAGE' of God man has set up; (the Image of The Beast);
Those who worship this "IMAGE" that makes God out to be a tyrannical eternal torturer;
Those who have, and believe in, this cruel sense of justice;
They are the very ones the following is addressed to:

Revelation 14:10 "The same [those who worship the image of the beast] shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." [so much for being "eternally separated" from God in hell]

In the Greek, "angels"= "messengers."

"They will be tormented in the Presence of the Lamb; and the true messengers' of His love for all humanity."

The dross of their evil thoughts, pride, lust for power, and twisted sense of justice will be destroyed; Leaving them naked once again, as they learn what is truly right.




Those who believe God will torment the majority of His creatures for eternity will also be told:

Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

How could Jesus know them when they believed He was a sadistic tyrant who would torture the majority of His creation? Of course Jesus doesn't know these people, they believe He's the most ruthless torturer in the universe! Totally insane!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top