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One of the saddest things I've ever heard

well then my pastor has kicked out teens and whole families for showing to much cleaveage.

he held them to the standard. but do we know how god works in the sinners.i was one of those in church that was sin gay sin and noone knew. remember being bi i could fit in with both sides of the issue. so its not like they knew i was that way as i didnt bring the other half. the word and the holy spirit dealt with me.

no a sinner should repent sooner or later but that said. i have a question for since you havent a clue on being born gay or bi or lesbian

what if that was your teen?your family or grandson, or some kid that you know the mother or father support him or her in that lifestyle. would you then not make them go to church?
 
Jason, a good friend of mine grew up gay. He was in church with his family the whole time and his family knew of his temptations towards homosexuality. However, he also knew that it was wrong, so never entered into that lifestyle. Part (only part, but nonetheless important) of the reason why he didn't enter homosexual relationships was because he knew that he would have to leave the church if he did so, that the church would not allow a sexually active gay person to stay.

In the end, with a lot of help from his family, the friends who knew about it and especially from the Holy Spirit, he forsook homosexuality. He met a woman who he loved deeply and after discussing with her his lifelong tendency towards homosexuality, they married. He never followed the temptation.

Another anecdote...just to clarify my position on this subject. I have another good friend as well (well, had, I haven't seen him in over 25 years) who was a full fledged flaming queen. We were good friends and I always felt so sorry for him because, even though he was this outrageous flamboyant type that everyone would have thought loved life...I knew of his thoughts of suicide and how truly sad and conflicted he was. We talked a lot about his homosexuality, I was the only Christian he knew that was comfortable talking to him about it. I witnessed to him and shared God's love with him and let him know that God could change him. However, he really didn't want to be changed, he just wanted the rest of the world to change so that the conflicts would go away. I did indeed invite him to a few things happening at the church...but he never really wanted to go. Had he done so...good, it would have been an opportunity for him to hear more about God...but unless he could feel "comfortable" there, he didn't want to be there. And, really, for the reasons previously stated, worshiping in the presence of almighty God is the last place an unrepentant flaming gay guy should feel "comfortable".

Like I say, I've lost touch. But, I do know that he has heard the gospel, that he has heard some of God's word and that there have been prayers for him. I hope the best for him.
 
I had a friend that went to a church. And in the youth group, there was a lesbian couple, and the church asked them not to come back. Now this lesbian couple was not there to cause trouble, they weren't making out in church or anything, they were there because they wanted to learn. But this church told them that they weren't welcome there. As a result, the couple left, and so did my my friend. I think that sucks.
Is this gay couple registered as members of the church? Does this gay couple claim to be Christian? If so, how do they justify holding on and embracing their sinful lifestyle knowing the sinful nature of it? How should we react or how should the church react if…

* Someone regularly brought a stack of pornographic magazines and/or DVD player and headphones to church?
* Someone regularly brought a bottle of Jack Daniels and got intoxicated during church?
* Someone continually ogled and flirted with those of the opposite sex at church?
* Someone regularly brought a statue of Buddha with them to worship at church?
* Someone regularly worked the crowd to pick their pockets at church?
* Someone regularly gossiped and spread false rumors about others in the church?

Part of our responsibility as members of a church congregation is to hold each other accountable. As Jesus said, “A little leaven leavens the whole lump.†In fact Matthew 18:15-18 records Jesus telling us to do this. Does this imply we should be mean, cruel, and heartless in our approach? By all means, no! A little tolerance, tact, and compassion for fellow sinners is applicable. On the flip side is it appropriate for us to turn a blind eye? By all means, no!

It is correct that we should treat people like Jesus treated people. So what did Jesus do? He treated people with compassion knowing they were weak, as we are still today, but he also called their sins into the light…and he told them to sin no more…and he rebuked their hypocrisy…and he got angry when they defiled the house of God. Jesus may have tolerated sin but he did not accept it and in like manner we are called to repentance of sin, not acceptance of sin.

If a gay couple came to our church I would hope we would welcome them, pray for them, and witness to them. If they continued to attend on a regular basis I would expect they would begin to recognize the error of their ways and repent. If not, it would be our responsibility to talk to them about it as explained in Matthew 18. In fact, our church constitution references Matthew 18 as our blueprint for handling these situations.

Tolerating sin is by no means accepting sin and certainly does not mean promoting sin. Unfortunately, it does seem that the latest trend is to accept the sin of homosexual behavior and it doesn't stop there but I won't go into those issues and steal this thread.
 
well then my pastor has kicked out teens and whole families for showing to much cleaveage.

he held them to the standard. but do we know how god works in the sinners.i was one of those in church that was sin gay sin and noone knew. remember being bi i could fit in with both sides of the issue. so its not like they knew i was that way as i didnt bring the other half. the word and the holy spirit dealt with me.

no a sinner should repent sooner or later but that said. i have a question for since you havent a clue on being born gay or bi or lesbian

what if that was your teen?your family or grandson, or some kid that you know the mother or father support him or her in that lifestyle. would you then not make them go to church?

Support or condone?
I think the Christian community has done an abysmal job both collectively and individually in supporting broken people for being broken people.

There is no human condition of sin that any Christian in this world, who has ever lived, or ever will live, who will not know their own selves, or have some ability to free their own selves from, any more than an unrepentant sinner does. Yet we expect more from others sometimes than we can honestly say of ourselves. Is that Christianity? Is that the love of Christ? Because that's how we sell it sometimes to the world.

What if it where my Child? I think that's the question God would have of us all, and I think he would remind us that they are his children.
 
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Support or condone?
I think the Christian community has done an abysmal job both collectively and individually in supporting broken people for being broken people.

So true, Danus. Support or condone...everyone sinner needs the one and not the other. The problem with the church today is that it seems they get no support from solid Bible-believing churches and not only condoning but embracing from liberal churches that seek to "reach out in a non-judgmental way". This is how leaven works its way through the whole.
 
So true, Danus. Support or condone...everyone sinner needs the one and not the other. The problem with the church today is that it seems they get no support from solid Bible-believing churches and not only condoning but embracing from liberal churches that seek to "reach out in a non-judgmental way". This is how leaven works its way through the whole.

There are some churches misguided in this.

My church recently addressed this issue to let the community know where we stand on this. We think homosexuality is morally and spiritually wrong, and we have no place of leadership for anyone who is openly gay. We do not condone this as a lifestyle or behavior.

However, we also said that if you are gay you are more than welcome at our church. That's it. We want to be supportive to all who seek a relationship with God, and in that effort, while we may not condone ones sin, we support their relationship with God.

I think that's a fair statement from the Christian community, but I personally do not believe that one must be purged of this sin to come to God. I think there are more gay Christians then we know. I'm not condoning it in saying this, just that in my theology, we are all sinners, and a Christian is a saved sinner, not a willful sinner.

One of the things we are going to see from the world, is an attack on Christianity in this arena. Get ready for it.

We are being targeted and labeled as bully's and spreading hate against the homosexual community. Some of it is understandable, but a lot of it is just a way to push this agenda in this cultural war.

So, we have to arm up a bit, and I think part of that is to extend an open hand to the homosexual community. We need to be more compassionate, as we would be with anyone else.

I have two friends who are gay, and I know others who have children who are gay. I can't imagine what that would be like, but I think we can all imagine what it is like to be alone, or feel rejected, and that should not be what we are about in the name of Christ.
 
ok. well then i like danus response and that is the place where i stand and the churches often would do this. and btw lets clarify this. many a churches dont have the member thing as mandatory that often here.

ok. that said
we know that some would openly rebuke the gay couple who hold hands in church or as they get out the car to go into the church
but wouldnt do the same withe cute hetero couple who lived together(nor would likely ask if they are married)
or the single mother who carried that child you adore but didnt concieve in marriage.

so it kinda biased the way we do things

and so none of you wouldnt take your gay child to church? oh so its ok if it the others who cant come but not yours. i do hope the posters here dont take that route.
 
However, we also said that if you are gay you are more than welcome at our church. That's it. We want to be supportive to all who seek a relationship with God, and in that effort, while we may not condone ones sin, we support their relationship with God.

I think that's a fair statement from the Christian community, but I personally do not believe that one must be purged of this sin to come to God. I think there are more gay Christians then we know. I'm not condoning it in saying this, just that in my theology, we are all sinners, and a Christian is a saved sinner, not a willful sinner.
Danus, I have to ask you to specifically speak to the early Church and the instruction given to those within it who were in disobedient sin. I'm not calling you out. I'm asking you honestly. The Church was told to remove them, and whenever the community was spoken of, it was a body of believers.

Certainly, no believer should cast them aside. We meet them where they're at, and demonstrate the compassion of Christ. Hopefully, they can get right and join us. But didn't the early Church give us a model by which to run our current ones? I can see merit in what you are saying, but aren't we shown God's desire for the Church through the biblical order?
 
mike , if you really did that , it can also means sons and daughter disowned in a sense. i say that as that is what the jws do. and i threw in children as teens rebel, girls get pregnant and dont want to get saved or abort and go back to wild sex life . and boys the same.

i would be the same with the lbgt. since i am the only one here who any sense of the lbgt. it not like they can just shrug it off without the hs help and one pray doesnt mean poof its gone like it was with me. but then again i didnt feed it and feed it like some of the others have. i await christempowered who btw has never stepped foot into a church to my knowlegde since his conversion.

i didnt ask to have the first lust toward that boy. it just happened. my choice was not to feed it or to do so.
 
Jason, forgive me, but sometimes I do have a hard time understanding your posts at times...so can you clarify something for me?

Were you in an actively gay relationship...yes, I do mean having sex, while you were also in church and your church pastor and leaders knew you were?

Because that is what I'm speaking out against. Not against someone who struggles with the temptation towards homosexuality...we all struggle with some kind of temptations and sins.

But, what Mike is getting at, and I agree, is that the church shouldn't be a place where people who are in obvious and active sin can stay and be embraced. That is wholly unbiblical.
 
Jason, forgive me, but sometimes I do have a hard time understanding your posts at times...so can you clarify something for me?

Were you in an actively gay relationship...yes, I do mean having sex, while you were also in church and your church pastor and leaders knew you were?

Because that is what I'm speaking out against. Not against someone who struggles with the temptation towards homosexuality...we all struggle with some kind of temptations and sins.

But, what Mike is getting at, and I agree, is that the church shouldn't be a place where people who are in obvious and active sin can stay and be embraced. That is wholly unbiblical.


the leaders didnt Know. when you read that and those verses then you musnt assume that to sinners but those who claim christ. just because i join my church doesnt mean i am saved.

so your church kick sinners out then if they havent repented?preaching the word will make them leave. you dont have to do that. thats my point if they stay they will hear and change of leave.

where and what i dont get is this with you two, oh you cant come to my church but see you at the store or coffee shop and or ball game. that cant be either.
 
just because i join my church doesnt mean i am saved.
And that's part of the problem...churches being so rushed to get members on the roles that they don't teach/admonish/discuss enough to even know that someone is saved before becoming a member. To bring someone into full fellowship, without even knowing enough about them to determine if they are in an actively sinful lifestyle, one they haven't as yet repented of...shouldn't happen folks. It just shouldn't.

Again, I don't have a problem with gays and lesbians coming to church as visitors. But, the outcome should be one of two things: Either they repent of their sin, are saved and turn their hearts to God...in which case they are full members of the Body. Or, they leave, unrepentant and unwilling to forsake their sin.

In my family, we have a fairly wide variety of denominations represented. Some within our family believe that as long as someone wants to be a member of the church...by all means, let them in. No discussion, no hearing and questioning of the testimony, no "testing of spirits" even...as to whether or not the person shows any sign of being a born-again believer. As my one brother in law says, "If they come on a regular basis...they are members. Period."

I've never agreed with this. I believe that the Bible sets the example that the church should indeed hold it's members accountable to the Gospel and to holy living. That there will be some who misrepresent their walk with God...parroting things so that they seem to be truly born-again, but are not...well, we can't read other's hearts and minds, only God can do that. But, surely we should examine and exhort others and seek to confirm as best we can that one is truly a born-again person who is repentant of their sins (even if they still struggle with them) before communing with them as fellow saints.

If someone comes before the church as a member, as someone who takes communion with his fellows, and he is clearly and unrepentantly engaged in a sinful lifestyle...whatever it is, homosexuality, hetero sexual sin, drug abuse, even white-collar thieving little old ladies out of their retirements by known shady deals...then that person should be cast out. The Bible clearly teaches this.
 
most churches here dont do the membership thing. i dont really see the point as it more of the right to vote on financial matters than anything.

my church does and theres a confession but still even then what? didnt jesus have church whenever he taught. i bet them healed men did follow him and proclaim him and have a lead worship service.

yet there were sinners there. of that i have no doubt. one can challange a man by the word simply teaching it.it dont take long to determine who loves the lord or not.

if you think i am hard your old earth position you havent debated with my plt sgt.i got that from him but he is a lot worse and wont bother with any pre trib teacher.
 
Naturally there are sinners in church.

But, I guess I'm coming at this from the fact that we had to uproot ourselves and leave a church that we have family and close friends in, because they voted to allow gays and lesbians who are in committed monogamous relationships (ie, sexually active with a person of the same sex) to be ministers and lay leaders.

There comes a time to draw a line...and that time should come long before the leaven spreads so far, that 2/3's of a large denomination would be OK with that.
 
dora read my posts i never said they should be allowed to partake in the sacriments. but not to hear or listen?

and be it well known there was and has been talk of not allowing athiests to post here by the mod team from time to time. you have been a mod here and know full well what they do.

that said we have lk here the longest and in general he hasnt been all that bad.can the sinners draw us away? yes but then again the other end isnt good either.
 
Danus, I have to ask you to specifically speak to the early Church and the instruction given to those within it who were in disobedient sin. I'm not calling you out. I'm asking you honestly. The Church was told to remove them, and whenever the community was spoken of, it was a body of believers.

Certainly, no believer should cast them aside. We meet them where they're at, and demonstrate the compassion of Christ. Hopefully, they can get right and join us. But didn't the early Church give us a model by which to run our current ones? I can see merit in what you are saying, but aren't we shown God's desire for the Church through the biblical order?

Sorry I did not see this earlier.

Yes I know what you mean. I have a few thoughts on this that are not popular. Which is very strange for me. I try not to be controversial as you know. :)

However,....not that I'm much of an "end timer" I do believe we are in the last days. I'm not setting dates please understand. But, I make a distinction between Paul's advice to the church in his time and our situation now.

Right now, I think it does not matter as much. We live in such un-biblical, spirituality ignorant times where if we can just grab a piece of one's heart we need to take it.

If we kicked people out of the church today for their sins, we'd not have anyone sitting. Not to say that Christians where any better in Paul's day. But I believe we can deliver the gospel in church and invite all to hear.

There are many people who hear the truth and don't like it, but they are welcome back to it any time. The truth only hurts when we don't accept it because we've made our own truth, but we still need to preach it. Just because it hurts. does not mean it's not founded in Love.

It won't be long before the truth as we know it might very well be labeled as hate. Many people are doing that. Let them know it.
 
Danus, do you ever need a place to go where you can get charged up and feed off each other, rather than do the feeding? I do. I've been in Bible study groups where the rest of the group were basically newbies. I didn't learn much, because I was forced to "dumb down" the subject matter for the rest of the group. Selfish sounding, aren't I? But every Friday, the same thing. It got old!

If we're not going to use scripture to determine how we run our churches, then I guess ANYTHING could go. :) But if we're being honest, I really think Christians need a place to worship, and they have confidence that they are surrounded by believers.
 
I am in agreement with Mike on this one.

Christians need to know that they are among like minds in their worship time. There is a time and a place to minister to the secular world and likewise there is a time and a place to minister to Christians.
 
I am in agreement with Mike on this one.

Christians need to know that they are among like minds in their worship time. There is a time and a place to minister to the secular world and likewise there is a time and a place to minister to Christians.

I'm in agreement as well. When we look at the Scriptures, the assemblies were for worship, for fellowship, for equipping...to take the gospel out into the world.
 
Danus, do you ever need a place to go where you can get charged up and feed off each other, rather than do the feeding? I do. I've been in Bible study groups where the rest of the group were basically newbies. I didn't learn much, because I was forced to "dumb down" the subject matter for the rest of the group. Selfish sounding, aren't I? But every Friday, the same thing. It got old!

If we're not going to use scripture to determine how we run our churches, then I guess ANYTHING could go. :) But if we're being honest, I really think Christians need a place to worship, and they have confidence that they are surrounded by believers.
so no worship at the home when they come to visit as those same verses say treat them as the Unebeliever in that dont talk to them, dont eat with them. that cant just be in the church.

its at the home or any event save work.

yet here we let them blog here all the time go figure.
 
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