One of the saddest things I've ever heard

[jasoncran]

mike i have learned more by home bible study then in church in general., i check my self in church but i learn more in private or here.

its been like that with me for years that is because so called christians dont read the word.

 

[Mike]

mike i have learned more by home bible study then in church in general., i check my self in church but i learn more in private or here.

its been like that with me for years that is because so called christians dont read the word.

I believe you missed my point. A Bible study is the perfect place to invite a non-believer or spend time with someone in disobedient sin. I only described my experience in Bible study to emphasize the need to charge up our batteries and be equipped, as Dora said, to go out into the world (into those studies) and share the Gospel.

I don't understand the dismissal of the New Testament model. How can this be ignored? I believe God knows our need to be strengthened together to go out in the world, and this is why He established the order He has.

If we are at church trying to achieve two things, get equipped and share the Gospel with others, I don't think we'll achieve either as well as if we did them separately. Church for equipping; out into the world for sharing the Gospel.

 

[Danus]

Danus, do you ever need a place to go where you can get charged up and feed off each other, rather than do the feeding? I do. I've been in Bible study groups where the rest of the group were basically newbies. I didn't learn much, because I was forced to "dumb down" the subject matter for the rest of the group. Selfish sounding, aren't I? But every Friday, the same thing. It got old!

If we're not going to use scripture to determine how we run our churches, then I guess ANYTHING could go. But if we're being honest, I really think Christians need a place to worship, and they have confidence that they are surrounded by believers.

I'm not disagreeing, and it's not my position to say that church, or church membership is necessarily open to just anyone who does not have a heart for the Lord's word.

All churches set up an environment that clearly does not welcome, on it's own accord, people who do not wish to know God. But, let's face it. In church we have two types of people in church, actually there are three types in church, and four types all together.

Two of the types in church that share similarities. We have unsaved sinners who want to know God, and we have saved sinners who know God.

And there are two other types of people who do not have any sin. One you will find in church and the other you will not find in church. That's right. You may find them in church or out of church.

How many sinners have you meet that say they are not sinners and they admit they do not know the Lord, and sinners you've meet who say they are not sinners because they in fact know the lord? ....I've unfortunately meet many. I've meet both of these types and both where quite well behaved.

When I was a kid I fidgeted in Church. My mother sang in the chior so she sat behind the pulpit while my father, brother and sister sat in the pew....our pew

My mom would give me a stern look as I wandered my head around making faces at people and paper airplanes from the bulletins. I sat to the far right while my dad sat far left and my older siblings in the middle. And when my mom gave my dad the signal, his thumb and forefinger from his stretched out arm would grab my ear and pull me in tight, and when the service was over my mother would tell me how unacceptable my behavior was, how embarrassing it was, and the topper...How God did not like it.

It did not take me long to realize that God did not like people who misbehave or step out of line. This is how a child thinks or associate's those type of words. But, many adults think this also. ....My mom was right. God does not like it when people misbehave or step out of line, but he loves them anyway and if they don't know that they will run away from his stretched out arm and his attempt to pull them in tight.

Sometimes when my dad would pull my ear it hurt. It got my attention and I'd sit there head held low and sometimes shed a tear. My brother would leer at me pointing and laugh over my scolding, but my sister had more compassion. She might put an arm around me at times.

The reason my older brother sat nearest my dad is because he was in fact the worst behaved, but he sucked up to my dad and was the chief of sibling rivalry for my dad's attention. My sister sat between us because she was the most well behaved. If she did not sit there I would be the victim of my brother, and my parents knew this.

There where times when my brother or sister would attempt to discipline me in Church. I am the youngest after all. They'd look at me, or flick my ear, but they left left it ultimately up to to my dad. They knew that hand had to pass by them to get to me and it could just as easily take them with it.

Just as my brother and sister sat between me and my father, so there are others in church sometimes that tend to get between us and our father. I don't want to be one of those people, for say.

When the fathers hand comes to the youngest member I am not going to get in the way, or ask for permission, or think that I might not deserve that hand also. I certainly don't want to be like my older brother and look down on them, I want to be like my sister and be there for them, but ready to duck if I need to. ;)

I think you get my point, but in this very true analogy my brother represents the saved "sinless" person you find in church. My sister represents the saved sinner who knows God, and I represent the sinner who does not know God, but getting to know him. Just like the kingdom of God, we do not have a forth sibling. He or she never sat with us in church because they don't exist in the family, or the church.

Church is not just for us. It's for all who want to know or be close to God. (period) those who don't are not even going to walk through those doors. We need to be the type of Christians that God needs us to be, not the type who we think he likes the most.

There is a misnomer among Christians I think. We like to think that we bring that forth person into the church. That person who says they are not sinners and who do not know God. We like to think that we are reaching out and inciting them to church so that they might be saved and know God.

Friends they don't exist in the church. They have no desire to go to your church or be a part of your bible study. You can't spot them, and the reason you can't spot them is because they are not coming with us, but between us and them there are those who want to come to church and who need to come to church. They are hurt and broken and want to know God, but they don't. Let's not get in the way of God. let's not get between them and God. Let put an arm around them and know that they are like us.

We need not waste our time on those forth types.

 

[jasoncran]

I believe you missed my point. A Bible study is the perfect place to invite a non-believer or spend time with someone in disobedient sin. I only described my experience in Bible study to emphasize the need to charge up our batteries and be equipped, as Dora said, to go out into the world (into those studies) and share the Gospel.

I don't understand the dismissal of the New Testament model. How can this be ignored? I believe God knows our need to be strengthened together to go out in the world, and this is why He established the order He has.

If we are at church trying to achieve two things, get equipped and share the Gospel with others, I don't think we'll achieve either as well as if we did them separately. Church for equipping; out into the world for sharing the Gospel.

what you say would only work for a large church . churchs smaller then that dont have the ability. and i mean over 300. who said that. but if one is to really do that then dont associate with that sinner? and its not for the sinner. its for the christian who sins. get that right.

if a brother sins and doesnt repent admonish him and treat him the like the unbeliever.
and what did paul mean when he said that? dont associate with them!no friendship. no having them in the house etc. be not unvenvly yoked with unbelievers.

 

[Mike]

From reading Acts, it sounds to me like these were very small communities, and still they were advised to remove those with outward disobedient sin. Do you think they were being to harsh? Knowing your respect for the Word, I'm sure you do not. Is it that the Early Church is outdated compared to our modern churches/society. Again, I would be sure you wouldn't say this.

So, why is the instruction found in scripture? And why would you not use it to govern your church?

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23741">15</sup> “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23742">16</sup> But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23743">17</sup> If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28339">17</sup> I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28340">18</sup> For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28341">19</sup> Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-29677">14</sup> If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-29678">15</sup> Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

 

[Danus]

From reading Acts, it sounds to me like these were very small communities, and still they were advised to remove those with outward disobedient sin. Do you think they were being to harsh? Knowing your respect for the Word, I'm sure you do not. Is it that the Early Church is outdated compared to our modern churches/society. Again, I would be sure you wouldn't say this.

So, why is the instruction found in scripture? And why would you not use it to govern your church?

Governing the church, yes.

We are a non-denom. It's different for us. We have members, but we also have a lot of regular visitors. It's not like a traditional denomination where most of the congregation is made up of members.

In our church members meet outside of the worship service. Our service is geared to the general public. We teach the word mind you, but we host the community.

I don't think Paul had a church like ours in his day.

 

[Mike]

Governing the church, yes.

We are a non-denom. It's different for us. We have members, but we also have a lot of regular visitors. It's not like a traditional denomination where most of the congregation is made up of members.

In our church members meet outside of the worship service. Our service is geared to the general public. We teach the word mind you, but we host the community.

I don't think Paul had a church like ours in his day.

I used the wrong word: govern. I should have said "keep order in our church". With all the respect due to you, I don't think Paul would have let your church get to where it is today. OUCH! He'd order mine to make a lot of changes too. Danus, it doesn't give you pause to think your church is not being bold enough to stand up against open sin the way Paul models it for us?

 

[Lewis]

From what my friend told me, it was the youth group that the lesbian couple was going to, not the Sunday church services. But still, I don't know if I agree with you. Jesus preached to sinners, and I don't think he would have turned them away. It seems to me that if someone genuinely wants to learn about God, they should be able to, even if it's on a Sunday with everyone else. I know if I was a lesbian, I would be put off by a church that told me I couldn't be a part of their worship service and it would make me not want to be a part of that church. But then, in a way, I see your point. If a gay person doesn't know Jesus, then they wouldn't really be worshipping Him at a worship service, but neither are a lot of other people that are allowed to be there. I just don't think that a church should turn away someone that truely wants to know God. Isn't that what church is for? I know you said that you think churches should offter outside ministried to people that are seeking God until they are ready to be a part of the worship service, but I don't know any churches that do that. So if they aren't allowed in the church service, what's left?

You are right they should be able to come into the church and learn about what is going on, who knows the Holy Ghost might snatch them and they might get saved.

 

[jasoncran]

mike again those are those that came to christ. how many persons sit in the pews and dont talk to many and few knew of them and yet the never go to the alter? alot more then you think.

trust me if they were that adamant you wouldnt like them in your house or be near them anyway., notice it says disruptive not someone who sits and learns.

big difference. we cant hold the sinner to the standards we are too as he isnt in christ.

 

[Danus]

Danus, it doesn't give you pause to think your church is not being bold enough to stand up against open sin the way Paul models it for us?

We have taken a stand against open sin like this. To redefine what I'm saying, there are people who are gay who openly seek to be justified in their sin and there are people who are gay, who understand their struggle. We support the later, but I guess what I'm saying is, that we welcome all who want to learn about God and who seek a relationship with God.

We are not suggesting that a gay couple present themselves as such in our church, but that's a foggy road we'll have to see what comes of it. In the past Homosexuals hid themselves. Today they want to be known for who they are in this way.

As example, We have alcoholics at our church who've made themselves known for who they are and their struggles. I'm not comfortable with them driving the church van, but you know? I still love them. ;)