One result of being in union with Christ

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"None of these verses have any conditions for these promises for those who are "in Christ"."

No. None of those verses have any conditions for the promises.

Then the response would be "yes", not "no".

The conditions are found by reading the rest of scripture.

If there were conditions beyond being "in Christ", then the verses in the OP are basically meaningless.

My point is that IF there ARE conditions beyond being "in Christ", these verses WOULD HAVE mentioned the conditions.

For example, consider the use of the word "if" in the Scriptures.

First; Definition of the word “if” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that

I see no relevance here since in the verses provided in the OP don't include "if".

The word “if” introduces a potential outcome based on a condition.

Ex: “If (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) you eat that mushroom (the condition) you may die. (the potential outcome)

Here is the problem: misunderstanding the use of the word "if".

It ISN'T the "outcome" that is potential, but the ACTION of eating the mushroom. iow, IF one eats a poisonous mushroom (potential ACTION), THEN they WILL MOST ASSUREDLY DIE. See the difference?

So, in a conditional sentence, what is conditional is the potential action, not the outcome.

So, in every conditional sentence, it is the outcome that is GUARANTEED.

Ex. “if(in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) any one's name was not found written in the book of life, (the condition) he was thrown in the lake of fire. (the potential outcome) (Rev 20:15 RSV)

Another misunderstanding of the "if" in this verse. The outcome is GUARANTEED only IF the potential action occurs.

Ex: if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) Christ has not been raised, (the condition) then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (the potential outcome) (1 Cor 15:14 RSV)

Another misunderstanding. The outcome is GUARANTEED (your faith is in vain) only IF Christ has not been raised.

It logically follows that the failure to meet the condition will result in the potential outcome not coming to pass.

No. The outcome is GUARANTEED, if the condition is met.

So, with reference to the first example, if you do NOT eat the mushroom you will not die from the effects of eating it.

Again, the outcome of not dying from a poisonous mushroom is GUARANTEED if the mushroom isn't eaten.

What is ALWAYS potential if the action following the "if" .

iow, "if this..." then "that" - guaranteed outcome.

I recommend reviewing the subjunctive mood in the Greek.

Here is a link regarding the subjunctive mood in the Greek:
http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson29.htm

Some links regarding conditional classes in Greek:
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...greek/text/boyer-firstclassconditions-gtj.pdf

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/conditional_sentences.htm

In addition, there are a number of "classes" in Greek conditional clauses.
1st class condition - assumed to be true for the sake of argument
2nd class condition - assumed to be false for the sake of argument
3rd class condition - may be true or false. This is comparable to how the English treats the "if" clause
4th class condition - "I wish it were true but it isn't" from the viewpoint of the speaker

I've heard there are even more conditions, but I haven't seen any in print.

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” is contingent upon the condition that “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

It follows logically that is one does NOT “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel,” (fails to meet the condition) then the potential outcome of of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” will not become a reality.

What is the guaranteed outcome here? That God WILL PRESENT the believer "holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight".

What is the potential action here? IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH.

So, iow, ONLY IF the believer continues in their faith WILL God be able to present them "holy and blameless".

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If we DO NOT hold firmly then we HAVE NOT come to share in Christ.

First, one must understand what "sharing in Christ" means. It does NOT mean salvation. Salvation isn't a partnership. We don't participate in our salvation. It is God alone who saves us, and that by grace, not by works (Eph 2:8,9). To "share in Christ" refers to a partnership, which is another way to communicate fellowship. Any partnership requires fellowship. 2 Cor 13:14, John 1:3-7.

2 PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For IF you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If you DO NOT DO these things the possibility of falling is a reality.

What is the potential action here? possessing "these qualities".
What is the guaranteed outcome here? IF one possesses "these qualities", then "they" (these qualities) will keep us from being ineffective and unproductive in our knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

btw, "falling" or "falling away" never refers to salvation. It always refers to our faith, or what we believe, or the Christian life. Luke 8:13

The English word "apostasy", meaning "to no longer believe what was once believed" is from the Greek word "fall away". It does not refer to salvation.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

In this case, both the positive and negative conditions and potential outcomes are stated demonstrating that there are indeed conditions attached to the promises.

Once again, it ISN'T the outcome that is potential. It's the ACTION listed after the word "if".
When that isn't understood, Scripture cannot be rightly divided (2 Tim 2:15).

What is the potential action here? IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin...
What is the guaranteed outcome? He will die.

This is directly related to God's discipline leading to physical death as seen in 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Cor 11:30, and Acts 5. And the principle is noted in 1 John 5:16.

One must properly understand what "die" means in every context. It's not just physical or spiritual death.

In summary, in EVERY conditional clause (if this...then that), it is the action that is potential, not the outcome. The outcome IS ALWAYS GUARANTEED WHEN IF the potential action occurs.

http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson29.htm
"In English, we use the words "were," "should," "might," or "would" when we are speaking in the subjunctive mode. In each of the sentences above, only the possibility of eating spinach, or of being sick, or of being unable to go to work, or of not being paid is being considered. The reality remains contingent upon future developments. The case is contemplated with the action being hypothesized. Notice that although we will talk about present subjunctives, the subjunctive naturally looks to the future for the resolution of the contingency."

Note that is the action that is potential, or "being hypothesized". Not the outcome.

The outcome is guaranteed ONLY IF the action occurs.

 

[JLB]

Yes, that's exactly what I posted. Maybe it was missed by you.

I pointed out that you left out part of the purpose of scripture, as correction is just one of the many facets you ignored.

There are also some equally great scriptures which correct us, if we should go astray, and turn from the truth.

It's also for correction, reproof, doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, so that the believer will learn to conduct himself in righteousness, and not walk in unrighteousness, in which he will be denied access to God's Kingdom, on that Day.

Here is one of many examples:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you believe unrighteous Christians who live a lifestyle of immorality, will inherit, have a part in, the kingdom of God?


What is clear, is the warning from Jesus about being removed from being "in Him", in which the one who is removed will be cast into the fire and burned.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

What is just as clear from 1 Corinthians 3:17 is the same warning, which comes from Paul.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:12-17

If the workman's, work is BURNED by fire, the worker will suffer loss, because the people who are burned will be lost.

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.


JLB

 

[chessman]

15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The part you did not bold shows this Truth is speaking about the workman himself going through fire, yet being saved. Not someone else going through fire.

If the workman's, work is BURNED by fire, the worker will suffer loss, because the people who are burned will be lost.

This fire, spoken of in 1 Cor 3, is a revealing/testing fire that reveals the saved workman's own straw/stubble, not someone else's salvation (or lack thereof).

1 Corinthians 3:13 (LEB) the work of each one will become evident. For the day will reveal it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the work of each one, of what sort it is. ​

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him.

Paul does does not say; If you defile the Temple of God (yourself) God will destroy you.

 

[FreeGrace]

I pointed out that you left out part of the purpose of scripture, as correction is just one of the many facets you ignored.

I actually quoted 2 Tim 3:16 right after my comment about what Scripture is profitable for. So i didn't leave out anything. It's quite odd that one would make such an incorrect statement.

It's also for correction, reproof, doctrine, and instruction in righteousness, so that the believer will learn to conduct himself in righteousness, and not walk in unrighteousness, in which he will be denied access to God's Kingdom, on that Day.

Please provide any verse that says that any believer will be denied access to God's kingdom on that day. Or just admit this is just an assumed opinion.

Here is one of many examples:

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you believe unrighteous Christians who live a lifestyle of immorality, will inherit, have a part in, the kingdom of God?

Of course not. But why would anyone assume that to "not inherit" means denial of access? That hasn't been explained yet.

There are 3 parallel verses about this; 1 Cor 6, Gal 5 and Eph 5. All saying basially the same thing. Except the Eph 5 passage says "have no inheritance in the kingdom" which isn't different that "have no inheritance in the kingdom".

So, such believers will be in the kingdom. It's just that some will not have any inheritance in the kingdom.

We find the exact same principle in Heb 3:14, where the believer must "endure to the end" in order to be a metachoi with Christ. Partner, sharer.

What is clear, is the warning from Jesus about being removed from being "in Him", in which the one who is removed will be cast into the fire and burned.

No, that isn't clear at all. Rather, what is clear is that the farming metaphor is about loss of service, since John 15:1-6 is all about fruit production, which is about service. Not about how to get or maintain salvation.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Let's examine the immediately previous verse:
John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

It is only through fellowship with Christ that anyone can do anything.
Phil 4:13
I can do all things through Him who strengthens me

How are believers strengthened? By the power of the Holy Spirit who resides in each believer (Gal 3:2,5, 2 Pet 1:3).

What is just as clear from 1 Corinthians 3:17 is the same warning, which comes from Paul.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:12-17

Rather, this passage is about which of a believer's works or deeds will be rewarded. The works that will be burned up refer to works from the energy or power of the flesh. But works or deeds done in the power of the Holy Spirit will be rewarded. But even for those believers whose works get burned up, they themselves WILL BE SAVED, which is diametrically opposed to the views of those who believe that salvation can be lost.

If the workman's, work is BURNED by fire, the worker will suffer loss, because the people who are burned will be lost.

Huh? Where does the Bible say that "people are burned" in this passage?

 

[Jim Parker]

If there were conditions beyond being "in Christ", then the verses in the OP are basically meaningless.

Nonsense.
The problem is your interpretation which is based on refusing to acknowledge what God has said elsewhere but which you don't want to know because His word refutes your "theology."

 

[WIP]

Let's get back to following the rules of this forum. Simply replying with a statement effectually saying the other is wrong does not comply with the rules of this forum.

 

[FreeGrace]

Nonsense.
The problem is your interpretation which is based on refusing to acknowledge what God has said elsewhere but which you don't want to know because His word refutes your "theology."

In post #21 I corrected your views about the subjunctive mood. Proper interpretation is based on understanding the Greek language.

Your response here suggests that union with Christ isn't permanent, seemingly in spite of the verses offered in the OP. So it seems the verses "elsewhere" would contradict the verses in the OP.

Is that a fair assessment of your view?

I do not believe the Bible is internally contradicted in any way. No verse "trumps" or contradicts any other verse. But it seems that view isn't shared by all Christians.

 

[JLB]

I actually quoted 2 Tim 3:16 right after my comment about what Scripture is profitable for. So i didn't leave out anything. It's quite odd that one would make such an incorrect statement.

Here is your original statement that I responded to.

I believe all Scripture is for our encouragement.

2 Tim 3:16,17 -
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV

Please point out where the word "encouragement" is found in 2 Timothy 3:16.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The part you did not bold shows this Truth is speaking about the workman himself going through fire, yet being saved. Not someone else going through fire.

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:12-17

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The worker's work will be lost, having been burned in the fire.
The worker himself will be saved.

If anyone defiles the Temple, God will destroy him.

If the worker's work begins to defile the Temple, then the workers work will be destroyed.
If the worker begins to defile the Temple, then the worker will be destroyed.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This fire, spoken of in 1 Cor 3, is a revealing/testing fire that reveals the saved workman's own straw/stubble, not someone else's salvation (or lack thereof).

1 Corinthians 3:13 (LEB) the work of each one will become evident. For the day will reveal it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the work of each one, of what sort it is.

17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:17

Is the Temple people or something else?



JLB

 

[chessman]

Is the Temple people or something else?

The "temple" Paul speaks of here (1 Cor 3:17) is the holy people (temple) of God. Which is why these holy people are saved as through fire.These holy people are made holy by God.

Can holy people defile the temple of God on your view?

Can unholy people deflie the temple of God on your view?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

People who come along and cause believers in Christ to stumble (as hyper-grace teaching does) are to be cut off from the body of Christ so that believers in the body of Christ do not go to the fiery hell:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."
(Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

So much for OSAS.


17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)

 

[chessman]

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks

People of the world are not disciples of Christ.

John 15:19 (LEB) If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.​

17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB)

How bout you, do you think people who are made holy by God deflie the temple of God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How bout you, do you think people who are made holy by God deflie the temple of God?

Of course you know that I believe that genuine believers can become former believers and become the enemies of the church of God.

Christ is warning of the danger of allowing false prophets and liars in his kingdom to cause "these little ones who believe in Me" (Matthew 18:6 NASB) to stumble and be cast into the fiery hell--the fiery hell that OSAS swears "one who believes in Me" can not ever, ever go to.

And if you think false, lying people are not presently in the kingdom of God here on this earth, think again:
"41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42 NASB bold and underline mine)

Their day is coming. They will be rooted out and destroyed for leading God's people astray with their false, lying doctrines that cause God's believers to stumble. If we true believers do not separate the false from among us we have the potential to go to the fiery place with them if we are lead astray. So much for OSAS. Jesus said so.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42 NASB bold and underline mine)

In the similar analogy of the building in 1 Corinthians 3:12-17, false people within the building of God will be destroyed and cast into the furnace of fire. They will not pass through the Judgment. And so they will not be present on the other side to be a reward for the laborer who brought them into the building of God. Instead that work will be burned up, but the worker himself will pass through safely.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is your original statement that I responded to.

"I believe all Scripture is for our encouragement.

2 Tim 3:16,17 -
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV"

Please point out where the word "encouragement" is found in 2 Timothy 3:16.

What Christian wouldn't be encouraged by 2 Tim 3:16,17??

If there is no encouragement in those verses, then there is no encouragement anywhere in the Bible.

Those who demand specific wording will be sorely discouraged.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

People who come along and cause believers in Christ to stumble (as hyper-grace teaching does) are to be cut off from the body of Christ so that believers in the body of Christ do not go to the fiery hell:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."
(Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

So much for OSAS.

Except the OP demonstrates OSAS. Since there is disagreement on this, please explain what these verses mean.
Rom 6:5 - For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Then v.8 - Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

I find no conditions to be fulfilled for those who have been united with Him in His death. None. Whatsoever.

I eagerly await an explanation.

 

[FreeGrace]

In the similar analogy of the building in 1 Corinthians 3:12-17, false people within the building of God will be destroyed and cast into the furnace of fire.

Please show where in this passage would I find "false people within the building of God". I'm not seeing it.

They will not pass through the Judgment. And so they will not be present on the other side to be a reward for the laborer who brought them into the building of God.

And please show where it is people who pass through the judgment. What I see are works, not people. Please advise. Thanks.

Instead that work will be burned up, but the worker himself will pass through safely.

Sure. But I'm still wondering about people passing through judgment and where are thesea "false people".

 

[chessman]

I asked you:

do you think people who are made holy by God deflie the temple of God?

You answered:

Of course you know that I believe that genuine believers can become former believers and become the enemies of the church of God.

Yet Paul says:
"everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected" 1 Tim 4:4

I take it then by your stated belief about genuine believers above that you do not believe this sites' Christian State of Faith concerning "genuine believers". That is, they are unable to be seperated from the love of Jesus Christ :

"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."​

Thus Paul warns that some will believe falsely that people who are made holy can be made unholy (defiled). To bad.

 

[JLB]

Please show where in this passage would I find "false people within the building of God". I'm not seeing it.

Yes it's true people within the building that have become a source of defilement, in which they will be destroyed.

17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:17