One result of being in union with Christ

[FreeGrace]

The context is what dictates.

Example:

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10

How does this passage have any context for 1 Cor??

17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:17

What I clearly see are two completely different things. There is "everlasting destruction" in one verse, and "destroy" in another epistle.

There is NO CONTEXT WHATSOEVER between the two.

Is defiling or corrupting God's people with heresy, or sexual immorality, or idolatry and the like, an example of obeying the Gospel or disobeying the Gospel?

Of course it is disobeying the gospel. But 2 Thess 1:8 is about not believing the gospel, which means such people don't have eternal life, per John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, and many others. And those who don't have eternal life don't have their names in the book of life, obviously, and on THAT BASIS ALONE, will be cast into the lake of fire, for EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION. Rev 20:15.

1 Cor 3:17 is about believers who will face God's discipline, which will include loss of life, which is clearly taught in 1 Cor 11:30 about abusing the Lord's Table and an example given in Acts 5:1-5 because of lying to the Holy Spirit and plainly taught in 1 John 5:16.

For those who doubt, just place your cursor over each citation and read it for yourself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The foundation, which is Christ, is built with materials, not peoples.

why would one believe that building materials equal people?

Because that is the metaphor that both Paul and Peter use elsewhere:

"you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22 NASB bold mine)

"5you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 2:5 NASB)

That which is built on the foundation of Christ are indeed people. We can see that as plain as day. So, we don't need to wonder what it is that gets built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles in 1 Corinthians 3.

10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NASB bold mine)

People are not 'man's work'. Man's work may result in saved people, but it is not people.

Paul called the Corinthians his 'work':
"Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB)

If his 'work', the Corinthians, doesn't get burned up in the coming Judgment of fire they will be his reward in the kingdom for his ministerial labor:

"19For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB bold mine)

"my beloved brethren whom I long to see, my joy and crown" (Philippians 4:1 NASB bold mine)

"prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:15-16 NASB bold mine)

"we are your reason to be proud as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus." (2 Corinthians 1:14 NASB bold mine)

It's clear that the crown of reward for the laborer in the field and building of God are the people that pass safely through the coming Judgment, not burned up because they were, metaphorically speaking, made of perishable material not able to withstand the fiery Judgment.

Note the reference to the day of reward being the day of Christ in the passages above, just as Paul says that in 1 Corinthians 3:13 NASB.

It makes much more sense to understand "man's work" as "man's efforts".

If I did a roofing job on a house and you wanted to test the quality of it with fire you would not test me with fire. That's absurd. Obviously, you'd test the roof.

13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work." (1 Corinthians 3:13 NASB)

 

[chessman]

you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22 NASB bold mine)

Now that's funny. Why chop off the first part of Eph 2:19???

Ephesians 2:4-9, 19 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
...
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, ...​

V19 is one of those frequent logical flows of Paul's. It the conclusion ("so then") drawn from his previous premise statements. What are these premises???

1. God is rich in mercy
2. God has great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions
4. God made us alive together with Christ
5. By God's grace you have been saved
6. God raised us up with Him [Jesus]
7. God seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Which indeed 6 and 7 corresponds to saved people (saved by God's work, not Paul's) being the Holy Temple of God and God being the one that is causing it to grow. Paul didn't raise us up nor seat us there, God did! And God's mercy is rich (silver and gold). His love for us endures (is everlasting). Yes, even thru our transgressions and sin (defilements).

1 Corinthians 3:6, 16 (NASB) I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing it to grow. ...
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and the Spirit of God dwells in you?​

Paul called the Corinthians his 'work':

No, they are "his work IN THE LORD". And they are "in the Lord". They are in His great mercy and rich love. Seated right there by Jesus who interceeds for them. For how long??? Oh yah, always.

BTW, did Paul save the Corinthians or did God???

 

[FreeGrace]

Because that is the metaphor that both Paul and Peter use elsewhere:

"you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22 NASB bold mine)

"5you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 2:5 NASB)

That which is built on the foundation of Christ are indeed people. We can see that as plain as day. So, we don't need to wonder what it is that gets built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles in 1 Corinthians 3.

10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NASB bold mine)


Paul called the Corinthians his 'work':
"Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 9:1 NASB)

If his 'work', the Corinthians, don't get burned up in the coming Judgment of fire they will be his reward in the kingdom for his ministerial labor:

"19For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB bold mine)

"my beloved brethren whom I long to see, my joy and crown" (Philippians 4:1 NASB bold mine)

"prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:15-16 NASB bold mine)

"we are your reason to be proud as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus." (2 Corinthians 1:14 NASB bold mine)

It's clear that the crown of reward for the laborer in the field and building of God are the people that pass safely through the coming Judgment, not burned up because they were, metaphorically speaking, made of perishable material not able to withstand the fiery Judgment.

Note the reference to the day of reward being the day of Christ in the passages above, just as Paul says that in 1 Corinthians 3:13 NASB.

If I did a roofing job on a house and you wanted to test the quality of it with fire you would not test me with fire. That's absurd. Obviously, you'd test the roof.

13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work." (1 Corinthians 3:13 NASB)

I believe there has been a misunderstanding of how to take metaphors. Paul's work was preaching the gospel. The RESULT of his WORK was people coming to a saving faith in Christ, and becoming a part of God's household.

I believe you've confused Paul's work with the results of his work.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe you've confused Paul's work with the results of his work.

That's exactly the error you and countless others make about the passage.
When a person's work is tested you don't go to the person who did the work to test him, obviously, you go to and test the work completed.

"...and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15 NASB)

How absurd it is for you to argue that if I put a roof on a house that I'm the one who gets sprinkled with fire to test the quality of my work on the building to see if it remains. Obviously, if the roof doesn't pass the test there is no reward waiting for me after it has been tested. There is only reward if it passes the test and remains after the testing. It's pretty hard to collect on work done for a homeowner that fails.

This is not a hill worth dying for. It's just another example of how the church gets taught things and then they can't see any other thing other than what they were taught. (You know....like OSAS.)

I'm confident that to this very day pastors are being taught your interpretation of the passage, and, since they are going to be too busy when they finally get into their pastoral positions they will never have quiet, unstressed time to see what the passage is actually teaching. And, if they are in a denomination that doesn't allow any other interpretation they will have to teach what they are expected to teach anyway. I don't know why we have such a crappy system, but it's what we got.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's exactly the error you and countless others make about the passage.
When a person's work is tested you don't go to the person who did the work to test him, obviously, you go to and test the work completed.

I haven't suggested otherwise. Paul's work was preaching the gospel. The way to test his work of preaching is whether he was accurate, or taught false doctrine, such as conditional security, etc. And to examine the results of his work.

"...and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15 NASB)

How absurd it is for you to argue that if I put a roof on a house that I'm the one who gets sprinkled with fire to test the quality of my work on the building to see if it remains.

No one is suggesting that the believer literally goes through fire. That is what could be described as absurd.

Obviously, if the roof doesn't pass the test there is no reward waiting for me after it has been tested. There is only reward if it passes the test and remains after the testing.

Exactly! That's just what I've been saying all along.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I haven't suggested otherwise.
[...]
And to examine the results of his work.
[...]
Exactly! That's just what I've been saying all along.

It's good to see you coming around to what I'm saying. Albeit slowly, but at least you're seeing it is the people he ministers to that get tested.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's good to see you coming around to what I'm saying. Albeit slowly, but at least you're seeing it is the people he ministers to that get tested.

You've completely misunderstood my posts. It's Paul himself that gets tested, not the people he has ministered to.

Consider what Paul wrote:
1 Thess 2:4
On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts. Not the people Paul preached the gospel to, as you've claimed.

Or, Prov 17:3
The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tests the heart.

We know what we are rewarded for, because Paul specifically explained it:
Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

What isn't clear about the phrase "whatever you do", or "work at it"?

What is clear is that believers will be rewarded for whatever they DO. That's what 1 Cor 3:14-15 is about.

 

[JLB]

Of course it is disobeying the gospel. But 2 Thess 1:8 is about not believing the gospel,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

By your own admission, those that defile Gods people are not obeying the Gospel.

Those who do not obey the Gospel are destroyed by God, with everlasting destruction, which clearly means not a physical destruction as you falsely claimed.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

By your own admission, those that defile Gods people are not obeying the Gospel.

I explained what it means.

Those who do not obey the Gospel are destroyed by God, with everlasting destruction, which clearly means not a physical destruction as you falsely claimed.JLB

All unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire because they never received the free gift (Rom 6:23) of eternal life.

Those who have received the free gift of eternal life will never perish. That's what Jesus promises. John 10:28

Any questions?

 

[JLB]

I explained what it means.

Those who disobey the Gospel will be destroyed will an everlasting destruction.

Any "explaination" outside of that is false.

1. You've not shown that "abiding in Me" refers to being in union with Christ. And such a notion would suggest that we are in charge of being in union with Christ and have the power to change it, which is totally false.

Is a branch that is connected to a vine, in union with the vine, being a partaker of the life giving nourishment the vine provides?

If not, then please explain how the branch is sustained by the vine, if not in union with it.

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw theminto the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


JLB

 

[JLB]

All unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire because they never received the free gift (Rom 6:23) of eternal life.

Romans 6:23 doesn't say that.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Christians who live a life of sin, will receive the wages of sin, which is death.

Christians who live a lifestyle of demonstrating the life of Christ within them, will receive eternal life.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who disobey the Gospel will be destroyed will an everlasting destruction.

Please show me where in 1 Cor 3:17 the word "everlasting" occurs. I can't find it.

Here's the verse: If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

I'm pretty sure everyone understands how adjectives work. They modify other words to clarify what is meant. And ONLY WHEN eternity is in view does the Bible add such adjectives to modify words.

But in 1 Cor 3:17, there is NO SUCH modifier to indicate the lake of fire, as is your proposal.

The mix and match patchwork that you've provided provides no help and only leads one into a misunderstanding of 1 Cor 3:17.

Is a branch that is connected to a vine, in union with the vine, being a partaker of the life giving nourishment the vine provides?

Who says every branch connected to a vine is "in union" with the vine? That's just a false assumption.

Let's examine what Scripture says about non producing branches:
John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

As I previously pointed out, John 15 is about fruit production, which is a metaphor for service. No one goes go hell for lack of service, or please provide any verse that teaches such a thing.

If not, then please explain how the branch is sustained by the vine, if not in union with it.

You've confused being attached with being "in union" as the Bible teaches what it means.

But since you've misunderstood the passage being about fruit production rather than "how to maintain your own salvation", there is no point in further discussion.

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw theminto the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6
JLB

Sure. There it is again. I've bolded the words that prove that the passage is about fruit production and not about salvation or how to keep it.

Please explain how "bearing fruit" equates to keeping one's salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"All unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire because they never received the free gift (Rom 6:23) of eternal life."

Romans 6:23 doesn't say that.

Where did I say that it did? I cited Rom 6:23 as PROOF that eternal life is a free gift, which is EXACTLY what the verse says.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Correct. So why would anyone ignore this verse which is in direct relation to Rom 11:29, since both verses are about God's gifts.

Christians who live a life of sin, will receive the wages of sin, which is death.

Impossible for several reasons.

First, those who have received the free gift of eternal life simply CANNOT DIE. That would be absurd.
Second, no one has provided any verses that teach that eternal life can be taken away, lost, removed, revoked, etc.

So, there is no reason to think that one who has received eternal life could ever end up in the "second death".

Christians who live a lifestyle of demonstrating the life of Christ within them, will receive eternal life.

Thanks for this clear admission of your works based (lifestyle) salvation theology. Which is in total disagreement with Scripture.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

It's too bad some will quit reading at v.8 and don't learn what followed, proving that no one CAN fulfill this passage, which was Paul's point.

The catch is "continuance in doing good". Jesus specifically told the rich young ruler that there is no one who is good, except God.
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

Therefore, Rom 2:6-8 CANNOT BE FULFILLED BY ANY HUMAN, except Jesus Himself, who is God.

And Paul made that quite clear in:
Rom 3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
Rom 3:23- for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The fact is that since "all have sinned" proves that NO ONE can "continually do good".

Even for those misguided believers who think they can reach a state of "sinless perfection" still have sin in their background, and have not fulfilled Rom 2:6-8.

 

[Soul man]

The "in Christ" message is the greatest truth a Christian can ever to.
It is our doctrine and carries more weight than any other.

 

[FreeGrace]

The "in Christ" message is the greatest truth a Christian can ever to.
It is our doctrine and carries more weight than any other.

Sadly, some believers assume that being "in Christ" can be lost by a number of means. Which ignores the clear message of Eph 1;13 and 14 and 4:30.

 

[Jim Parker]

Sadly, some believers assume that being "in Christ" can be lost by a number of means.

Give it a rest, will you
You're beginning to sound like a broken racord

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Sadly, some believers assume that being "in Christ" can be lost by a number of means."

Give it a rest, will you
You're beginning to sound like a broken racord

None of the assumptions of the sealing with the Holy Spirit being broken or that salvation can be lost have been proven from Scripture.

 

[Jim Parker]

I said this:
"Sadly, some believers assume that being "in Christ" can be lost by a number of means."

None of the assumptions of the sealing with the Holy Spirit being broken or that salvation can be lost have been proven from Scripture.

You keep saying that.
You are deceived and happy to be so.

 

[chessman]

Romans 8:35 (LEB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or hunger or lack of sufficient clothing or danger or the sword?
​

Interesting how Paul answered his rhetorical question versus how others do.

​