Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[francisdesales]

Thank you fran.

I have attempted previous to 'explain' the word worship and MANY have chosen to utterly ignore my explanation.

We are to 'serve' EACH OTHER and above ALL God. And this IS worship. But, as you have well pointed out, there IS to be NOTHING worshiped AS God EXCEPT God. Yet you ARE to worship, (love, serve, etc..), your WIFE as you would YOUR SELF. But neither one's self NOR their wives, children, dogs, cats, cars, etc, etc, etc, are to be worshiped AS GOD.

MEC

Imagican,

Fair enough. One must remember to define one's terms - the word "worship" is a loaded term. We Catholics are accused of "worshiping" Mary, which is certainly not true. Now that you understand the differences, I can rest assured that Catholics will not be accused by you in the future that we worship Mary - in the sense that she is God!

However, the Biblical meaning of worship is something given to God alone. The first commandment makes that clear.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Hi Dave...
Lets take a look at what you wrote..

Hi jgredline.

Thanks for your response.

Your choice of wording, "not necessarily worship of deity" could just as well be rephrased as, "not necessarily not worship of deity", yes?

First its not my wording, but the definition of the word by swanson...and it is what it is...

If so, then what we would have is a biblical example of where a man, king David, is "worshipped" as God.

Sorry, but I don't see where David is being worshiped at all...I see people being prostate before God and King David, but not worshiping him....I don't see the people Praying to David, or sacrificing anything to David, or Acknowleding that David is deity in any way shape or form...It is simply not there....no matter hoe much you would love for it to be there...it is not....

Now as Little Angel said Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:
This one does it for me.
I worship the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus Christ is God.

....Ok,now these folks that were all there would surely, ''as David'' be familiar with Ex 34:14...and so those folks knew exactly what was meant by blessing the Lord....

Having said that, I'm not trying to suggest that such is the case. I agree with you that the context is "not necessarily worship of deity".

OK, great....

The fact that the New Testament Greek uses quotations in many cases from the Septuagint (LXX) [which, for those who may not already know, is the Greek translation of the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures], must be considered. The Greek word used for "worship", with respect to contexts involving Jesus in the New Testament is proskyneo.

...OK, ''BUT'' again it comes down to context...If you would like to produce the verse you are refering to, I would be happy to take a look...

The LXX translation of 1 Chronicles 29:20 happens to use proskyneo as well. And yet, the English translators saw it appropriate to use the term "worship" in the KJV. Most other translations opt for something less problematic, such as "prostrated themselves".

Like I said, The KJV has that verse wrong....

My point, is that since you have suggested that the context of 1 Chronicles 29:20 is "not necessarily worship of deity", then you must by the same reasoning allow for that to apply to Jesus in the New Testament as well. If you don't, then you're not being fair in allowing the same method of interpretation apply to passages which are central to your position. There's no absolute way to say that the proskyneo given to Jesus is anything more than the same homage/respect given to king David in 1 Chronicles 29:20.

...uuuh No...Be serious....You and I know that words can mean different things when used in different context....

Did the disciples, "bow low" and "prostrate" themselves before Jesus? No doubt. Does this necessitate that Jesus be God Himself? Absolutely not.

Peace in Him.
David

It is obvious to me that you do not believe Jesus to be deity, to be GOD.....If I am wrong, please let me know...

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Hi jg,

You know by now that I don't read everything, so I don't know if you covered the man born blind in John 9. (The search feature here just does not narrow it down enough)

In this story, Jesus heals the blind man, the man returns to the temple, where he is thrown out for giving his testimony of how he was blind, then Jesus healed him. I pick up the Scriptures here in verse 35, where Jesus encountered the man again.

Jhn 9:35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
Jhn 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
Jhn 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
Jhn 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

This man worshiped Jesus Christ. Angels and man are both recorded as forbidding someone from worshiping them, declaring that they are servants also. Jesus did not forbid this man from worshiping him. If Jesus Christ were not God, it seems to me as if there would be a problem here.

 

[jgredline]

Little Angel
Thanks for the wonderful reminder...Yes we have covered it, I am sure numerous times...Infact 46 pages later, we have covered much of the bible, but as in the times when Jesus was performing miracles and ''walked'' the earth, people refused to believe he was God and it is no different now.....

 

[Imagican]

Imagican,

Fair enough. One must remember to define one's terms - the word "worship" is a loaded term. We Catholics are accused of "worshiping" Mary, which is certainly not true. Now that you understand the differences, I can rest assured that Catholics will not be accused by you in the future that we worship Mary - in the sense that she is God!

However, the Biblical meaning of worship is something given to God alone. The first commandment makes that clear.



Regards

exodus 1:1

Actually, the first commandment DOESN'T 'make THIS clear at all'. Nor does the second. ONLY clear when taken LITERAL. Figuratively, YES, one can 'read' into it what they will.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

This states NOTHING concerning worship other than an indication that there shall be NO OTHER GODS worshiped AS God.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

And this too, the second commandment simply offers that we are to worship NOTHING made by the hands of men OR images created in the MINDS of men.

The CC's habit of knealing to a 'statue' of MARY does EXACTLY what the second commandment COMMANDS the Hebrews NOT TO DO.

And fran, the word worship simply means 'to serve', as in 'thou shall serve NO other gods BEFORE me'. Or, 'God IS worthy of our service'. As in, 'a man cannot SERVE two masters'.

The ONLY thing 'loaded' about the word worship is the FACT that many refuse to UNDERSTAND it or simply 'make up' what they choose it to mean.

MEC

 

[DM]

Jgredline wrote the following in reply to my previous post:

"Sorry, but I don't see where David is being worshiped at all...I see people being prostate before God and King David, but not worshiping him....I don't see the people Praying to David, or sacrificing anything to David, or Acknowleding that David is deity in any way shape or form...It is simply not there....no matter hoe much you would love for it to be there...it is not.... "

I understand your view, and I pointed out that I didn't see it as David being "worshipped" as God. Your remark, "no matter how much you would love for it to be there", is a demonstration of you reading into my words something I never said or intended to convey. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

What you may have failed to recognize is that the word you're using to say that Jesus is "worshipped" (proskyneo in Greek) in the New Testament, is the exact same word translated as "worship" in the 1 Chronicles 29:20 passage in the LXX. You're saying that the KJV made a mistake and has it wrong. Instead, it should be correctly rendered "prostrated themselves". I happen to agree.

You're also saying that it's okay for "proskyneo" in the Greek to NOT mean "prostrated" or "bowed low", just so long as it applies to Jesus. It's clear to me that you believe Jesus is God, and therefore I'm not surprised by your desire to see the Greek "proskyneo" mean anything but "worship" when applied to Jesus. But the simple fact remains that there's no way to tell from the word "proskyneo" itself (and I'll cite Gabby's reference to John 9 as just one such example) that it has to mean "worship" in the most exclusive sense. The blind man may simply have "bowed low" or "prostrated himself" before Jesus, just as ancient Israel had done before King David.

In fact, this makes far more biblical sense, since Jesus is after all the "Son of David", and the "King of Israel". It would be most fitting to prostrate oneself before him . . . not because he's God, but because he's God's Son.

Respectfully,
David

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I find this interesting also

1Peter 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Obviously this was before the birth of Christ. Peter speaks of the Old Testament prophets. Yet, the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets.

If Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not God, then they can not be considered equal with God. If they are not equal with God, then reasoning says that they therefore must be less than God.

It would be helpful if those who do not believe in the Trinity would make the statement that clearly, so that those of us who believe in the Trinity could understand that you believe Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are in some way lesser than God.

 

[Imagican]

gabby,

What many seem to 'stumble' upon is that 'I' NEED no understanding of the equality or 'lesser standing' of Christ as compared to God. That is NOT what I have been instructed to concern myself with.

NO WHERE in scripture is it stated that 'I' MUST discern the 'equality' of Christ. ALL that 'I' have been commanded is to ACCEPT what has been offered.

That there HAVE been and continue to BE those that INSIST upon a COMPLETE understanding of the relashionship between God And Christ PROVES nothing other than a 'desire' to have things 'THEIR way'.

I KNOW that Christ IS The Son of God. That IS enough for me. And to attempt to dwelve ANY deeper is to do so at the risk of 'creating' a 'man-made' God and a 'man-made' Son. I choose to simply accept what has been offered BY God and let NO MAN alter my understanding through their vain attempts to EXPLAIN 'their' understanding that may or may NOT have ANY bearing on the Truth.

So, the only purpose your question could have POSSIBLY been posed was for the shear sake of argument. IS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD, or not? IS GOD THE FATHER OF CHRIST, or not? WAS The Word GIVEN to Christ BY His Father, or not? WAS Christ's power GIVEN Him BY His Father, or not? IS The Father GOD, or not?

These are SIMPLE questions to answer. And WHEN one 'accepts' the answers, at this point it becomes OBVIOUS 'who' Christ IS. To attempt to 'make' Him 'something' other than what is offered is to 'create' one's OWN God and therefore render what has been offered null and void. May as well write one's OWN Bible. May as well 'create' one's OWN religion if one is NOT prepared to accept the ONE that has been offered by God THROUGH His Son.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Jgredline wrote the following in reply to my previous post:

"Sorry, but I don't see where David is being worshiped at all...I see people being prostate before God and King David, but not worshiping him....I don't see the people Praying to David, or sacrificing anything to David, or Acknowleding that David is deity in any way shape or form...It is simply not there....no matter hoe much you would love for it to be there...it is not.... "

I understand your view, and I pointed out that I didn't see it as David being "worshipped" as God. Your remark, "no matter how much you would love for it to be there", is a demonstration of you reading into my words something I never said or intended to convey. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

...David...First I opologize for reading into your post...Second, I am happy to see that in the context of 1 Chronicles 29:20
David is NOT being worshiped....

What you may have failed to recognize is that the word you're using to say that Jesus is "worshipped" (proskyneo in Greek) in the New Testament, is the exact same word translated as "worship" in the 1 Chronicles 29:20 passage in the LXX. You're saying that the KJV made a mistake and has it wrong. Instead, it should be correctly rendered "prostrated themselves". I happen to agree.

You're also saying that it's okay for "proskyneo" in the Greek to NOT mean "prostrated" or "bowed low", just so long as it applies to Jesus. It's clear to me that you believe Jesus is God, and therefore I'm not surprised by your desire to see the Greek "proskyneo" mean anything but "worship" when applied to Jesus. But the simple fact remains that there's no way to tell from the word "proskyneo" itself (and I'll cite Gabby's reference to John 9 as just one such example) that it has to mean "worship" in the most exclusive sense. The blind man may simply have "bowed low" or "prostrated himself" before Jesus, just as ancient Israel had done before King David.

OK, Lets take a closer look at Little Angels John Chapter 9 ''verses'' to keep the context.....
lets start with verse 35 NKJV
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?â€Â
36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?â€Â
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.â€Â
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!†And he worshiped Him.

(Keep in mind that Jesus had just healed this man from blindness)

Now lets look at the context in the Greek...John 9:35-38 1550TR
ηκουσεν ο ιησους οτι εξεβαλον αυτον εξω και ευρων αυτον ειπεν αυτω συ πιστευεις εις τον υιον του θεου απεκριθη εκεινος και ειπεν τις εστιν κυριε ινα πιστευσω εις αυτον ειπεν δε αυτω ο ιησους και εωρακας αυτον και ο λαλων μετα σου εκεινος εστιν ο δε εφη πιστευω κυριε και προσεκυνησεν (προσκυνέω proskuneo) αυτω....

The first thing I want you to notice is that the Greek word that John Chose to use (προσκυνέω proskuneo)is different than the word you chose or I should say the LXX uses..."proskyneo"....So it would be obvious that the words of John are ''inspired''....The word John uses means ''prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): worship....and the Context very much supports this....In fact, even the word the LXX uses ''while'', very similar, it still supports Jesus being worshiped...The problem with this word the LXX uses, is that it is ''ambiguous'' which is the reason John used a more ''emphatic word''....to get his point across....Also keep in mind that John Wrote in 3rd grade Greek, so there is no dought what he was saying....Jesus was worshiped by this once blind man....

So this man who was blind could now see and he bowed down and worshiped his GOD....Who happens to be my God....

In fact, this makes far more biblical sense, since Jesus is after all the "Son of David", and the "King of Israel". It would be most fitting to prostrate oneself before him . . . not because he's God, but because he's God's Son.

Respectfully,
David

Jesus indeed is the Son of God, the second person of the triune God....
This is what makes perfect biblical sense.....

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...

So, the only purpose your question could have POSSIBLY been posed was for the shear sake of argument. IS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD, or not? ...
MEC

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

It seems to me that if Christ is in someway equal to God, but is not God Himself, then there are two Gods.

 

[Imagican]

Ok,

Let me clarify,

There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. And there is ONLY ONE TRUE SON. These TWO work in 'unison' for the 'sake of man'. The Father IS God and there is NO OTHER. The Son IS The Son of God and there IS NO OTHER. WE TOO are able to BE sons of God THROUGH The Son of God, Jesus Christ.

I worship ONLY ONE God AS God. I worship ONLY ONE Son AS The Son of God. And I DO NOT worship The Son AS The Father.

The Hebrews/Jews had MUCH difficulty in UNDERSTANDING that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD to be worshiped AS God. They continually worshiped 'other gods' therefore ANGERING God to the point of utterly debasing these people OVER AND OVER again. 'Stiff-necked' is the term used to describe their inability to CONFORM to the LOVE which God wished to SHARE with them. Choosing INSTEAD to commit Spiritual ADULTERY with 'other gods' OVER AND OVER again.

This is NOT the path that 'I' choose. I have MET God and am MORE than willing to accept His love. And I desire MOST in life to be able to RETURN this SAME LOVE. This I CANNOT do by serving ANYTHING else AS God OTHER than God Himself.

I love His Son as well and am MORE than able to comprehend the Love that He shared with US while we were YET ENEMIES of God AND His Son. But I MUST place them in proper perspective to PLEASE God. I CANNOT follow the 'teachings' of men AND the teachings of God through His Son. For these two CONFLICT in no different a means than attempting to 'serve' TWO MASTERS. I choose to follow ONLY ONE.

So, TWO Gods? I guess from YOUR perspective the only thing better than this would be THREE? No thanks. There iS ONLY ONE. And worshiping Christ AS The Son of God does NOT mean I must worship Him AS God. For, to ME, to do so would be to 'create' a 'false god' and worship IT to NO EFFECT.

Now, understand, there ARE 'other gods'. Whether they simply be 'different' manifestations of Satan or are their own 'separate' entities makes NO difference to me in understanding. But that there IS another god that's name IS Satan is OBVIOUS. And from MY perspective it is HE that takes on the 'guise' of 'other gods'. Therefore to worship these 'other gods' is nothing different than worshiping Satan. Satan who takes on the 'appearance' of an 'angel of LIGHT'. PURE PROOF that he IS able to emulate the 'appearance' of God Himself to those that are UNABLE to recognize him.

So, to sum up what has been offered here; There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. NO OTHER god or gods, or EVEN the Son, is to be worshiped AS God. For to do so is to TAKE away from God that which He desires of us. There is ONLY ONE Son of God and He is NOT to be worshiped for ANYTHING other than WHO He TRULY IS. To 'turn Him into something OTHER THAN what He TRULY is is to void an understanding of what He offered.

I do NOT accuse ANYONE of ANYTHING here. Just offering what 'I' understand. Hopefully there WILL be those that are able to open their hearts up to God AND His Son and understand Their will for US. And HOPEFULLY there WILL be 'some' that will forsake their OWN carnal desires ENOUGH to FIND the Truth. For that is the BIGGEST obstacle that stands between US And God. Unable to be breached by EVEN HIS SON unless one opens up their hearts, puts aside the 'old man' and allows the 'NEW' to become manifest.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

It seems to me that if Christ is in someway equal to God, but is not God Himself, then there are two Gods.

Gabby, Gabby, Gabby,

Watch;

There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. I have NEVER stated that Christ and God ARE EQUAL. For Christ Himself NEVER stated such. God IS able to empower WHO He will AS He will. Christ was INDEED empowered BY God to offer us that which GOD wished to communicate to us.

Christ PLAINLY stated that EVERYTHING which He possessed was GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER. The Father IS GOD. NO, NOT some 'one part' of some 'three headed god'. The Father IS God, Christ IS the Son of God. NO, NOT TWO Gods, ONLY ONE. God THE FATHER of our Savior JESUS Christ.

And there will be those that would twist THESE words as well. Offering that scripture states that there is ONLY ONE SAVIOR; God so therefore Christ MUST be God. WRONG. God can CHOOSE HOW He is to be or become our Savior. IF He chooses to do it through His Son it is STILL HIS DOING. That God chose His Son to deliver HIS WORD to us, it is STILL God who CHOSE to have it delivered THROUGH HIS SON. If God chooses to grant the power of judgement TO HIS SON, OH WELL, that is CERTAINLY HIS PEROGATIVE. WHO are we to 'box God into our limited ability to understand'? Won't catch me in this one.

Gabby,

I have read your posts for months now. There is NO doubt in MY HEART that you are sincere in your offerings. All I can say is keep reading and keep praying. My understanding may CERTAINLY not 'be for you'. Just remember, God loves you and WILL answer ANY question that you NEED an answer to. He will NOT leave you ignorant of that which you NEED to BE what it is that He desires for you. Just remember that it IS God that is able to do that which MAN cannot.

NOT two Gods, ONLY ONE. The Spirit is NOT God Himself. There is ONE Spirit that IS God for God IS SPIRIT. And there is CERTAINLY another that has been SENT TO US, JUST AS CHRIST WAS SENT TO US, BY GOD. These three ARE one in purpose, but separate in entity and this IS APPARENT TO ANYONE that reads The Word diligently and without 'others' trying to TELL them what they are reading. Pray and ask for guidance and leave those of this world to THEIR OWN designs.

God Bless you 'little angel'.

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

MEC[/quote]

Gabby, Gabby, Gabby,

Watch;

There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. I have NEVER stated that Christ and God ARE EQUAL. For Christ Himself NEVER stated such. God IS able to empower WHO He will AS He will. Christ was INDEED empowered BY God to offer us that which GOD wished to communicate to us.

Christ PLAINLY stated that EVERYTHING which He possessed was GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER. The Father IS GOD. NO, NOT some 'one part' of some 'three headed god'. The Father IS God, Christ IS the Son of God. NO, NOT TWO Gods, ONLY ONE. God THE FATHER of our Savior JESUS Christ.

And there will be those that would twist THESE words as well. Offering that scripture states that there is ONLY ONE SAVIOR; God so therefore Christ MUST be God. WRONG. God can CHOOSE HOW He is to be or become our Savior. IF He chooses to do it through His Son it is STILL HIS DOING. That God chose His Son to deliver HIS WORD to us, it is STILL God who CHOSE to have it delivered THROUGH HIS SON. If God chooses to grant the power of judgement TO HIS SON, OH WELL, that is CERTAINLY HIS PEROGATIVE. WHO are we to 'box God into our limited ability to understand'? Won't catch me in this one.

Gabby,

I have read your posts for months now. There is NO doubt in MY HEART that you are sincere in your offerings. All I can say is keep reading and keep praying. My understanding may CERTAINLY not 'be for you'. Just remember, God loves you and WILL answer ANY question that you NEED an answer to. He will NOT leave you ignorant...
MEC

:o :-D

... of that which you NEED to BE what it is that He desires for you. Just remember that it IS God that is able to do that which MAN cannot.

NOT two Gods, ONLY ONE. The Spirit is NOT God Himself. There is ONE Spirit that IS God for God IS SPIRIT. And there is CERTAINLY another that has been SENT TO US, JUST AS CHRIST WAS SENT TO US, BY GOD. These three ARE one in purpose, but separate in entity and this IS APPARENT TO ANYONE that reads The Word diligently and without 'others' trying to TELL them what they are reading. Pray and ask for guidance and leave those of this world to THEIR OWN designs.

God Bless you 'little angel'.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

The CC's habit of knealing to a 'statue' of MARY does EXACTLY what the second commandment COMMANDS the Hebrews NOT TO DO.

I see. What is good for you is against God's Law for Catholics...

What is so funny is that just yesterday, you write with delight about 1 Chronicles - that deals with men kneeling to God and David - so as if to verify your useage of the word "worship". And now, since Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, OH NO!!!! LOOK OUT!!!

Naturally, if a Catholic does something, it must be wrong. But if you do the very same thing, it's OK... :smt102

And fran, the word worship simply means 'to serve', as in 'thou shall serve NO other gods BEFORE me'. Or, 'God IS worthy of our service'. As in, 'a man cannot SERVE two masters'.

The word "worship" has several meanings. However, when someone says "I worship ..." on this thread, they are to be understood as talking about "Latria", the worship and praise given to God alone. Otherwise, you need to make that more clear.

So when you pray to Jesus Christ for something, are you being like a Catholic, praying to a saint to intercede for you to God??? :wink:

Regards

 

[Imagican]

actually fran, I think you have me 'confused' with 'someone else'.

I simply commended you for pointing out that 'worship' is NOT as 'confined' as some would have it. You seem to realize that there are MANY MANY things that are worshiped.

Now, stating that there ARE many things that are worshiped does NOT make it 'right'. The FACT that it is done does NOT justify it, I was simply trying to show that Christ can CERTAINLY be worshiped as The Son of God WITHOUT one being FORCED to worship Him AS GOD.

So, my UNDERSTANDING of worship does NOT condone worship to that which is NOT prudent.

There is ONLY ONE God that is to be worshiped AS God. One Son that is to be worshiped AS THE SON of God.

Statues EVEN in the 'likeness' of what one may 'assume' Christ to 'look like' or God to 'look like' are NOTHING other than 'graven images'. Statues of Saints, Mary, ANYTHING made by the hand of man to imitate or resemble ANYTHING is NOT to be bowed to PERIOD. If I am not misteken YOU yourself offered the SECOND commandment recently STATING just this; Thou shalt worship NO GRAVEN IMAGE. There is NO EXCEPTION HERE. Only in the minds of those that choose to IGNORE what is COMMANDED. Statues of Jesus, God, Mary, the Saints are NOTHING more than graven images.

So, while I recognize worship in it's mirade forms, that does NOT mean that I condone it or agree with it. There is rape and murder and stealing. My stating this does NOT mean that I condone such behavior. I just understand that it exists.

MEC

Oh, and gabby, the post that you quoted. The sentence that is unintelligible was meant to be TWO separate statements. Sorry for the confusion.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

actually fran, I think you have me 'confused' with 'someone else'.

Sadly, I do not...

So, my UNDERSTANDING of worship does NOT condone worship to that which is NOT prudent.

Words that mean little when someone like yourself can say they WORSHIP Jesus Christ, but mean something that most of us here believe means something else. You say "I do not condone it", but you yourself conduct it... Thus, your theology and your worship do not agree. You are confused.

There is ONLY ONE God that is to be worshiped AS God. One Son that is to be worshiped AS THE SON of God.

How does that differ from veneration of someone like David? Does the New Testament indicate that Jesus is ABOVE the angels? That Jesus was/is the WORD of God, worthy of worship as God?

Statues EVEN in the 'likeness' of what one may 'assume' Christ to 'look like' or God to 'look like' are NOTHING other than 'graven images'. Statues of Saints, Mary, ANYTHING made by the hand of man to imitate or resemble ANYTHING is NOT to be bowed to PERIOD.

Baloney. In the VERY BOOK THAT MOSES RECORDED THAT COMMANDMENT, GOD HIMSELF commanded Moses build the Ark of the Covenant. Upon the Ark, God commanded that Moses build two angels...

And must I remind you of the Temple of Jerusalem, where again, statues of angels were built? Jews knelt before these so called "graven images". Interesting that God would command Moses and Solomon to build something that would, in your incorrect opinion, would lead man into sin...

NO ONE is worshiping angels or Mary as God. How quickly you change the meaning of "bowing down" to worship as God... Isn't 1 Chronicles enough evidence for you not to take "kneeling" as an act of worship suited only to God??? How you utilize Scriptures to your own purpose and twisting its meaning to condemn those you look down upon...

If I am not misteken YOU yourself offered the SECOND commandment recently STATING just this; Thou shalt worship NO GRAVEN IMAGE. There is NO EXCEPTION HERE. Only in the minds of those that choose to IGNORE what is COMMANDED. Statues of Jesus, God, Mary, the Saints are NOTHING more than graven images.

You have a short memory. I said that kneeling is not necessarily an act of worship given to God alone. 1 Chronicles clearly states this - unless you believe that the Jews thought that David was God.

So, while I recognize worship in it's mirade forms, that does NOT mean that I condone it or agree with it. There is rape and murder and stealing. My stating this does NOT mean that I condone such behavior. I just understand that it exists.

And yet you do not explain why you pray to Jesus, among many other things that are contradictory in your theology...

Clearly, God is not revealing Himself to you - since God is not a God of confusion and contradiction.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Joe
Excellent Post and I see we both picked up on the ''very'' same things....Mecs theology contradicts itself.....allot....

 

[Imagican]

firstly fran,

'I' do NOT pray TO Jesus. I pray to God in the NAME of Jesus.

Second, the FACT that God had 'things' designed with articles of His discription offers NO indication that these 'things' were worshiped.

And even so, this is NOTHING in comparison to 'bowing down' to 'statues' such as the CC has taught it's followers to DO.

I am 'above' NO ONE. I 'look DOWN' upon NO ONE. That I recognize the false teachings of the CC does NOT make me JUDGE those that follow this faith. That is between them and God. i simply attempt to 'warn' those that are 'unaware'.

'MY' theology WOULD 'seem' alien to both YOU and j. I openly admit that with NOTHING but surity in my heart. For it is NOT I that have chosen to follow 'other men' therefore allowing me to go DIRECTLY to God for the answers that He sees FIT to offer. And MANY of those answers I have offered here FREELY.

God did NOT have Moses and the Hebrews 'create' the ark for a 'thing' to worship. It was 'built' to hold the sacred tablets that Moses delivered to the people. And the temple ITSELF was not 'created' to WORSHIP. It was NOTHING more than a "PLACE" to worship God.

I have offered NO contradiction concerning worship. That you PERCIEVE it to be contradiction speaks VOLUMES concerning YOUR understanding, (or lack thereof).

We are to worship NOTHING AS God other THAN GOD. It's really THAT simple. Scripture PROVES it and the Spirit WILL reveal this to ANYONE that so chooses to accept TRUTH rather than follow 'men'.

Christ is CERTAINLY worthy of our worship AS THE SON OF GOD. NOTHING on the planet IS worthy of the worship that is to be offered to God alone.

Now, if this is somehow 'contradiction' please show me scriptural evidence that I have offered something contrary to it.

Funny fran, but to accept 'man-made' tradition seems to 'blind' those that so choose in MORE WAYS than one. For to follow men that 'teach' worshiping statues means one MUST 'twist' the Word in order to IGNORE what it offers in opposition to such behavior. Kind of like naming Mary the Mother of God. Find THAT one for me in scripture. And 'where did the name Pope' come from? Scripture? Or calling a 'man of religion 'FATHER'? Hmmm?

So, that you would ignore the 'truth' concerning worship is not a very big step from these things pointed out above. For to accept what I offer would be to REALIZE that Mary CANNOT be worshiped in the 'form' of a 'man-made' statue. Nor the Saints or EVEN Jesus Christ. For the 'representation that you 'bow' to is NOT even the "likeness'' of Christ but a 'figment of SOMEONE'S IMAGINATION'. Actually an INSULT to Christ that someone would 'carve' an idol that DOESN'T even LOOK Like Him. Shame shame.

But, of course, YOU don't 'see' this for your 'faith getting in the way'. And me 'pointing this out' makes ME someone full of hate and placing myself ABOVE those that accept such rubbish? NO, my freind, I simply wish to WARN those that don't KNOW any better. For the rest, EACH will answer for the decisions that they make REGARDLESS of what they 'WANT' to 'believe'.

To worship is to serve. That MANY serve other gods or 'things' does NOT make it prudent in the eyes of God. Just the OPPOSITE IN FACT. For He has offered CLEAR warning to prevent those that TRULY LOVE HIM from participating in such UNRIGHTEOUS behavior.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I see. What is good for you is against God's Law for Catholics...

I DO NOT bow to statues and worship them. I do NOT worship ANYTHING AS God except God Himself. Don't know WHERE you got this statement above from.

What is so funny is that just yesterday, you write with delight about 1 Chronicles - that deals with men kneeling to God and David - so as if to verify your useage of the word "worship". And now, since Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary, OH NO!!!! LOOK OUT!!!

THIS is where you have ME confused with 'someone else'. For it weren't me 'writting in delight concerning Chronicles'. That was 'someone else'.

Naturally, if a Catholic does something, it must be wrong. But if you do the very same thing, it's OK...

NO fran, Catholic, Protestant, NON denminational, etc.......Wrong IS wrong REGARDLESS of one's FAITH. And YOU of all people should NOT be pointing out what it is that YOU believe. For it is YOUR faith which DEMANDS that YOU believe that ALL other religions than 'the TRUE church that YOU follow' ARE LOST. For YOUR religion teaches that one MUST accept THE CATHOLIC FAITH in order to be 'saved'. I have NO such 'religion' in my faith.

fran, I must admire 'your personal faith'. Even though misguided, from my understanding, you 'attempt' to defend it well. I have NO animosity towards the CC. NONE. That I am able to recognize it's fault in following it's OWN creation does NOT rouse hate or spite or envy within my heart. Just a willingness to WARN others to beware of ANY such faith that teaches the 'following of MEN' rather than 'serving God'.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

I DO NOT bow to statues and worship them. I do NOT worship ANYTHING AS God except God Himself. Don't know WHERE you got this statement above from.

From you. You worship everyone - since you say that serve = worship. I don't worship statues, by the way. As I have tried to explain to you by using the 1 Chronicles text, kneeling down before something is NOT worshiping something as God.

THIS is where you have ME confused with 'someone else'. For it weren't me 'writting in delight concerning Chronicles'. That was 'someone else'.

You were the only one who responded to say "see, I told you so - worship has multiple meanings" when I made that distinction to the gentleman who posted the 1 Chronicles verse.

And YOU of all people should NOT be pointing out what it is that YOU believe. For it is YOUR faith which DEMANDS that YOU believe that ALL other religions than 'the TRUE church that YOU follow' ARE LOST. For YOUR religion teaches that one MUST accept THE CATHOLIC FAITH in order to be 'saved'. I have NO such 'religion' in my faith.[/b]

Please. Don't try to teach me the Catholic faith. The Catechism states that even Muslims and Hindus have the possibility of being saved. Those who abide in Christ - LOVE - will be saved. No "religion" has a monopoly on Love.

fran, I must admire 'your personal faith'. Even though misguided, from my understanding, you 'attempt' to defend it well. I have NO animosity towards the CC. NONE. That I am able to recognize it's fault in following it's OWN creation does NOT rouse hate or spite or envy within my heart. Just a willingness to WARN others to beware of ANY such faith that teaches the 'following of MEN' rather than 'serving God'.

Imagican, all I can say is that your theology has a lot of loose ends. If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God, technically, you are not a Christian. There are so many problems with this one statement - that Jesus is not God. I have detailed a few.

Here are a few more...

If Jesus is not God, how did He save mankind by His death?

How is Jesus, a creation to you, THE mediator between God and man?

Why is it that you find it acceptable to pray "to God through Jesus Christ" but when a Catholic prays to God through saint so-and-so, that bothers you?

If the Word became flesh - at what point did God create this Word? When did God exist without His Word?

One simple "little" thing like making the Arian claim that Jesus was not God totally changes the entire Christian religion into something not recognizable, even among my Protestant brothers on this forum. As such, the Catholic Church was correct to condemn such a false teaching that Jesus is not divine.

Regards