Only the called are chosen, however, not all the called are chosen.

[savedbygrace57]

You see the difference between the outward call which is heard with the physical ear by everyone at the physical sounding of the the Gospel preached, and the inward call which is heard with the spiritual blessed ear Matt 3:16

But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The former only hears the preacher, it is words only they hear "For our gospel came not unto you in word only"

Whereas the latter hears the voice of Christ inwardly by regeneration Jn 10:16,27

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

You see, those who hear Jesus voice via the preached word, they follow Him, its automatic !

Because the words that Christ speaks to them [His Chosen] they are Spirit and they are Life Jn 6:63 and they are spoken to spiritual babes by new birth.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Now there is somewhat of a general call that is received by everyone who physically hears the Gospel, these hear only externally, which does not convert a sinner out of death unto life Jn 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 Pet 2:9

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness[which is death] into his marvellous light[which is life];

Lk 1:79

To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. See Lk 2:32 also !

Now this outward call may lead to a reformation by the efforts of the flesh, I believe such a one is described by Christ as a stony ground hearer who receives the word with joy, however come to find out that they have no root in themselves Matt 13:20-21


20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

No root in himself means not an inward call. A Call not by the Lord Jesus Christ Rom 1:6

Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Also a inward call denotes that one was born of the Spirit when they heard the Gospel, the Spirit indicating ownership, and He seals the hearer Eph 1:13

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Savedbygrace57---Now there is somewhat of a general call that is received by everyone who physically hears the Gospel, these hear only externally, which does not convert a sinner out of death unto life

Grubal---It starts with the hearing (knowledge) then the Holy Spirit uses the Word to convict, work on the heart, and lead someone to the Saving knowledge of Jesus Christ...But, still that person must place their (mustard seed faith) in Christ as Savior and Lord...

Savedbygrace57---No root in himself means not an inward call. A Call not by the Lord Jesus Christ

Grubal---It means that person was NEVER truly a "Born -again Christian. And that person walks away, rejecting God's Grace...

SavedbyGrace57---Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Grubal ---We are called to be conformed to the image of Christ and called to service. This speaks not of, "predestination" from before the foundation of the world election...

 

[Eventide]

The 'special' call.. ? ? ?

You see the difference between the outward call which is heard with the physical ear by everyone at the physical sounding of the the Gospel preached, and the inward call which is heard with the spiritual blessed ear..

So the elect get this 'special' inward call.. and all others only get the outward call from God ?

And all this time I thought that the call I received was the same as everyone else.. that if I shall seek to save my life I shall lose it.. but if I lose it for Christ and the gospel I shall save it..

 

[HisSheep]

Of course your going to have a different interpretation of Scripture. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but you tend to lean more towards "Calvinism" therefore, your outlook on Scripture will be bias towards your doctrinal beliefs...Man is influenced by, his church affiliation, denomination, doctrines created by other's, etc. There's a guy down in California who predicted the rapture would occur on May 21st of this year. His organization went all over the world and the U.S. proclaiming that, the end was guaranteed, by the Bible. This "Preacher" has been on the radio for 50 year's or so. (started in the 50s) He taught that Christ died before the foundation of the world (In Eternity) and when Christ visited the earth 2000 year's ago, it was ONLY to demonstrate what He had done before the foundation of the world. This man new his Bible front and back. And was a Bible answer man for 50 year's. He had an answer for practically, any Bible question you could imagine. People considered him a very humble and knowledgeable, scholar of the Bible.

He looked at the Bible as a massive parabolic puzzle that ONLY he could decipher. He (so he claimed) knew the year the story of Noah's ark occurred. He claimed to know how old the Earth was. And he claimed that he knew when the destruction of the Earth would occur (May 21, 2011) He claimed that, only the "elect" of God could be saved, but the rest could beg and plead constantly to be part of the elect but, the very act of pleading was considered a "work" and would not be accepted. But he told people to keep begging God anyway, the time was near, (May 21,2011)

People quit their jobs, got rid of their earthly trappings, lost close relationships with friends and other relationship's. People who listened to his broadcast were asked to quit school, work, etc. in order to spend the rest of their life (maybe a couple of month's considering May 21st was the end) handing out tracts and spreading the "good news" of destruction, death, judgement, and tens of millions of un buried corpses would be lining the countryside of the Earth. He also claimed a giant earthquake would occur all over the world on May 21st 2011 opening up ALL the grave's of the dead and spilling their remains on the ground. He preached horror,death, destruction, judgement, everything except mercy, love, gentleness, etc,. etc.

He claimed that where the Bible spoke that, "not even the Son knew when He would return only the Father knew. His interpretation of "Son" in the verse, meant Satan. He spewed heresy after heresy, false teaching and heresy. And the people that listened to him had the highest admiration for this "pseudo man of God" He is, they say, a "hyper-Calvinist" Ultra Calvinist. Anyway, within a few weeks after May 21st, he proclaimed that May 21st was an "invisible" judgement of God and that the real, end of the world will occur next month, "October 21, 2011 and he claims this as a certainty. He and his followers don't speak about Salvation anymore (after May21, 2011) because he says, "after May 21 2011 there would be NO Salvation for anyone. ALL are doomed and the world will be destroyed next month, he and his followers guarantee it, because they say, it's in the Bible. He's 90 this year and had a stroke within a month or so after his prediction. He's no longer preaching on his radio show, but they hope he will be able to return if he gets well. But considering the end, will come about in a few weeks, I would tend to doubt it...This man started out in the "Dutch reformed church."

This thread is about predestination/election right? The bible teaches predestination, like it or not. You don’t have to resort to math or read between the lines to see it. It is NOT the construct of man. It is what the bible says. Straight up.

Don’t try to correlate the biblical truth of predestination with the whacky teachings of Harold Camping and his American Family Radio…

…Icky.

-HisSheep

 

[Grubal Muruch]

This thread is about predestination/election right? The bible teaches predestination, like it or not. You don’t have to resort to math or read between the lines to see it. It is NOT the construct of man. It is what the bible says. Straight up.

Don’t try to correlate the biblical truth of predestination with the whacky teachings of Harold Camping and his American Family Radio…

…Icky.

-HisSheep

I was trying to share what can happen if we carry a system of belief to extremes. I'm not trying to say anyone hear has gone that far... Your interpretation of "predestination" is your choice of belief, not necessarily shared by everyone, please remember that. We ALL have free choice to choose what we believe. And God gave us that ability...

 

[glorydaz]

This thread is about predestination/election right? The bible teaches predestination, like it or not. You don’t have to resort to math or read between the lines to see it. It is NOT the construct of man. It is what the bible says. Straight up.

-HisSheep

The Bible does teach predestination, but the question becomes are certain individuals predetermined by God to be saved or are those who believe predetermined by God to become sons and conformed to His image.

 

[reba]

. . . . We ALL have free choice to choose what we believe. And God gave us that ability...

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Did Lazarus have the free choice to choose?

 

[Gazelle]

Couldn't we consider that Lazarus had already chosen Christ while alive?

 

[HisSheep]

Glorydaz,

I think I’ve heard this position before… that God predestined the PLAN of salvation, but not the individuals. Is that basically what you’re saying?

That doesn’t really fit with the character of God who, throughout the bible describes Himself as the controller and maintainer of ALL things. We are told that He is sovereign; in complete control of all things. He competes with no one.

I loath the concept of God and the devil in a cosmic “chess match†for the souls of men. It’s dualism; a theology repugnant to the Word.

God chose Israel from among all the Nations of earth, and not because of any inherent worth within them. This is also true of Christians.

God chose his Apostles, too… All of them male Jews… I add that for those who maintain that “God doesn’t play favoritesâ€.

Jesus called them, and all of them came.

And Romans tells us this:

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

…which really makes it sounds like He foreknew the individuals, and not just the plan… You gotta admit...

Hebrews 12:2 calls Jesus the author and finisher of our faith... Think about that for a while...

And thank you for not just saying something like... "you're just a heritic who lives to spew the precepts of men to confuse the faihful and inhibit the grace of God..." or whatever. That gets so tiring.

-HisSheep

 

[reba]

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Did Lazarus have the free choice to choose?

I will ask again a bit different. Did Lazarus have a choice to 'come forth" or not. When he was called by Jesus? Mind you he was wrapped in grave clothes bound hand and foot.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz,

I think I’ve heard this position before… that God predestined the PLAN of salvation, but not the individuals. Is that basically what you’re saying?

That doesn’t really fit with the character of God who, throughout the bible describes Himself as the controller and maintainer of ALL things. We are told that He is sovereign; in complete control of all things. He competes with no one.

I loath the concept of God and the devil in a cosmic “chess match†for the souls of men. It’s dualism; a theology repugnant to the Word.

God chose Israel from among all the Nations of earth, and not because of any inherent worth within them. This is also true of Christians.

God chose his Apostles, too… All of them male Jews… I add that for those who maintain that “God doesn’t play favoritesâ€.

Jesus called them, and all of them came.

And Romans tells us this:

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)

…which really makes it sounds like He foreknew the individuals, and not just the plan… You gotta admit...

Hebrews 12:2 calls Jesus the author and finisher of our faith... Think about that for a while...

And thank you for not just saying something like... "you're just a heritic who lives to spew the precepts of men to confuse the faihful and inhibit the grace of God..." or whatever. That gets so tiring.

-HisSheep

True, God foreknew those who would come, and He predestined that those who came would be conformed to His image. Is it the character of God to give man no choice...that we should be just pawns?

Yes, I do believe it's all in God's plan, which, don't forget, includes redemption. If the elect are saved from the beginning, then why have Jesus come at all? There are too many verses that tell us to "choose". They just can't be ignored or explained away.

 

[glorydaz]

I will ask again a bit different. Did Lazarus have a choice to 'come forth" or not. When he was called by Jesus? Mind you he was wrapped in grave clothes bound hand and foot.

Lazarus came forth into life because our Lord commanded him, but Scripture doesn't suggest it was a spiritual rebirth. The wind obeys.....man is the only one with the ability to refuse God's commands. We're commanded to Repent, but many don't. Just saying......

 

[reba]

As you can guess i view those verses a bit differently

 

[glorydaz]

As you can guess i view those verses a bit differently

I'm not sure I understand. Don't you agree that being raised from the dead to life is different than being born again.....given eternal life? Perhaps I'm missing your intent entirely. Sorry, if that's the case.

 

[HisSheep]

I will ask again a bit different. Did Lazarus have a choice to 'come forth" or not. When he was called by Jesus? Mind you he was wrapped in grave clothes bound hand and foot.

Good point Reba!

Not only was he bound, but he was dead, too!

Just like the bones in the valley (Ezekiel 37) God’s people are DEAD when He calls them; unable to do ANYTHING at all.

I regard Ezekiel 37 as a prophesy of the New Covenant. Consider these verses and see what you think. I’d encourage all to read chapter 36 and 37 with this suggestion in mind, but I’m just going to put a few verses here for brevity’s sake:

11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezekiel 37:11-14)

Notice that ALL of the work is God’s… He says, “I will, I shall, I will… through all of Chapters 36 and 37.

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

I'm not sure I understand. Don't you agree that being raised from the dead to life is different than being born again.....given eternal life? Perhaps I'm missing your intent entirely. Sorry, if that's the case.

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1)

Biblically speaking, being born again is the SAME as being raised from the dead.

We escape the Second Death, because we do not enter into condemnation.

We have passed from death to life.

-HisSheep.

 

[reba]

I'm not sure I understand. Don't you agree that being raised from the dead to life is different than being born again.....given eternal life? Perhaps I'm missing your intent entirely. Sorry, if that's the case.

We are dead in sin we are bound in sin. I see Lazarus as a example of us being raised from the dead as in

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


We are alive in Him


EDITTED: Yea what HisSheep said

 

[HisSheep]

True, God foreknew those who would come, and He predestined that those who came would be conformed to His image. Is it the character of God to give man no choice...that we should be just pawns?

Yes, I do believe it's all in God's plan, which, don't forget, includes redemption. If the elect are saved from the beginning, then why have Jesus come at all? There are too many verses that tell us to "choose". They just can't be ignored or explained away.

I actually don't find that a lot of verses ask us to choose. I DO think that we play a role in our Sanctification and many verses related to the Sanctification walk tell us to “watch our step†and the like. Some of these verses are used to refute election, but they are incorrectly used IMO.

Many will cite James’s “faith without works is dead†in an attempt to suggest that some work is necessary for salvation, so election can’t stand… but that’s a thin strand on which to hang a free-will salvation argument. Works are part of Sanctification, not Justification.

I believe that the initial saving belief on Jesus Christ (Justification) is not the work of man at all. Just as you play no role whatsoever in believing that the sun will rise tomorrow… You believe it because you have seen it. In NO sense did you choose to believe it.

AFTER Justification our Sanctification begins. Here we will learn to be compliant to the will of God. Our will becomes conformed to His through our experience with Him. Here, we may turn our will against God, but WATCH OUT! He will chasten His children who get out of His will, and you don’t want a spankin’ from the Father! But He only chastens His own children:

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (Hebrews 12:7)

As to your question about why Jesus had come at all if things are already determined:

I’m a fairly new Christian, and I’m just not enough of a bible scholar yet to give the answer I wish I could on that one, but I’m working on it. For now, I am content to have the mystery remain there rather than have it fall on election. There are far more precepts and verses (indeed, chapters) to contend with to try to deny election.

Mostly, I think God is creating a redeemed people for Himself. He is refining us through a fire, so that we will be improved by the process and made ready for service. I think to myself… why wouldn’t God just snap His fingers and make the redeemed people He wants instead of putting us all through this?

But really, on His timetable, perhaps that’s exactly what He’s doing!

-HisSheep

 

[glorydaz]

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1)

Biblically speaking, being born again is the SAME as being raised from the dead.

We escape the Second Death, because we do not enter into condemnation.

We have passed from death to life.

-HisSheep.

I understand what you're saying, but that wasn't the case with Lazarus. When he was raised from the dead it was to physical life. He had to go through physical death again, did he not? My point being we are not talking about spiritual regeneration in his case.

 

[glorydaz]

I actually don't find that a lot of verses ask us to choose.

We're told to "choose", "come", "repent", "believe" throughout Scripture.

I believe that the initial saving belief on Jesus Christ (Justification) is not the work of man at all. Just as you play no role whatsoever in believing that the sun will rise tomorrow… You believe it because you have seen it. In NO sense did you choose to believe it.

Some see and don't believe. We see God all around us and still don't turn to Him. Jesus is indeed the author and finisher of our faith, but we are accountable for looking to Him or not. A good picture is the serpent on a stick. All we need to do is look to Him. We can choose to trust in something else, and many do. When the Lord convicts our heart of sin, we can repent, as He commands, or we can turn away. That sounds like free will to me. Can we do it without His grace? No one can.