Only the called are chosen, however, not all the called are chosen.

[Grubal Muruch]

I will ask again a bit different. Did Lazarus have a choice to 'come forth" or not. When he was called by Jesus? Mind you he was wrapped in grave clothes bound hand and foot.

Lazarus was "physically" dead and didn't have the luxury to make choices. However, when we are spiritually dead (before regeneration) We hear the Word, and the Holy Spirit uses that hearing of the Word, to convict us and lead us to being Born again Spiritually. Although we still must apply our faith to that process...

 

[childeye]

True, God foreknew those who would come, and He predestined that those who came would be conformed to His image. Is it the character of God to give man no choice...that we should be just pawns?

Yes, I do believe it's all in God's plan, which, don't forget, includes redemption. If the elect are saved from the beginning, then why have Jesus come at all? There are too many verses that tell us to "choose". They just can't be ignored or explained away.

What scriptures say we can choose to disobey God and live? What is wrong with being a pawn to Love? And finally, what do you think dying in Christ is if not giving up your supposed right to be wicked?

 

[glorydaz]

What scriptures say we can choose to disobey God and live? What is wrong with being a pawn to Love? And finally, what do you think dying in Christ is if not giving up your supposed right to be wicked?

Well, we certainly can't disobey God's commands to believe and repent and expect to gain eternal life, if that's what you're asking. We can and do choose to disobey God after we're born again, and God will chasten us as sons.

There's not a thing wrong with being a pawn to Love, but that isn't the question. The question is would a loving God open the prison doors and only allow a select few out the door. Christ reconciled man to God by dealing with sin on the cross. He tells us to come as He is the Way to eternal life. He draws us with His Light, not willing that any should perish.

As for you last question, I don't believe we have a "right to be wicked", but when sin entered the world, our access to God was cut off. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection became the Way we could once again have access to our Creator.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well, we certainly can't disobey God's commands to believe and repent and expect to gain eternal life, if that's what you're asking. We can and do choose to disobey God after we're born again, and God will chasten us as sons.

There's not a thing wrong with being a pawn to Love, but that isn't the question. The question is would a loving God open the prison doors and only allow a select few out the door. Christ reconciled man to God by dealing with sin on the cross. He tells us to come as He is the Way to eternal life. He draws us with His Light, not willing that any should perish.

As for you last question, I don't believe we have a "right to be wicked", but when sin entered the world, our access to God was cut off. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection became the Way we could once again have access to our Creator.

You amaze me. Your answer was, "picture perfect." WOW!!! Good for you...

 

[HisSheep]

You guys (Arminians) still set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off.

I don’t question your motives mind you, but this is not the sort of god that the bible describes.

Allow me to ask a few questions to help us to apply the Socratic method. (some of them I have asked before):

1.) Is God powerful enough to save everyone if He wanted to?

2.) Can God bring a spouse, job, or friend into your life, and if so, why not a set of circumstances that will bring saving faith?

3.) Why does the gospel message fail to reach some people entirely? Has God’s will to reach them been trumped by mortal man?

4.) Are all men offered equal access to salvation?

5.) What is the ultimate difference between those in Hell and those in Heaven? Is it just the decision they made?

I don’t often get answers to these kinds of questions in a thread like this one. I don’t think Arminians like to answer them.

Hippoists answer them easily enough, but Arminians find their answers ugly.

Lean not unto thine own understanding… (Proverbs 3:5)
-HisSheep

 

[reba]

Growing up Arminian. 50+ years of Arminian understanding and teaching your list of questions pretty much covers the changing of my mind set.

The way the Word reads to me now is so very different it is hard to grasp it the same Book!

 

[HisSheep]

One doesn't often see Calvin actually quoted in a thread about "Calvinism", but now is probably a good place to offer for consideration a bit of the work of Calvin Himself. This is how he answers the "grace is offered to all, and it's up to them to accept or delcine" theology. I hope you will all take the time to read it carefully:

from Calvin, Institutes Vol. 2, part 4, para. 10:

We must, therefore, repudiate the oft-repeated sentiment of Chrysostom, “Whom he draws, he draws as they are willing;†insinuating that the Lord only stretches out his hand, and waits to see whether we will be pleased to take his aid. We grant that, as man was originally constituted, he could incline to either side, but since he has taught us by his example how miserable a thing free will is if God works not in us to will and to do, of what use to us were grace imparted in such scanty measure? Nay, by our own ingratitude, we obscure and impair divine grace. The Apostle’s doctrine is not, that the grace of a good will is offered to us if we will accept of it, but that God himself is pleased so to work in us as to guide, turn, and govern our heart by his Spirit, and reign in it as his own possession. Ezekiel promises that a new spirit will be given to the elect, not merely that they may be able to walk in his precepts, but that they may really walk in them, (Ezek. 11: 19; 36: 27.) And the only meaning which can be given to our Saviour’s words, “Every man, therefore, that has heard and learned of the Father, cometh unto me,†(John 6: 45,) is, that the grace of God is effectual in itself.

-HisSheep

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You guys (Arminians) still set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off.

I don’t question your motives mind you, but this is not the sort of god that the bible describes.

Allow me to ask a few questions to help us to apply the Socratic method. (some of them I have asked before):

1.) Is God powerful enough to save everyone if He wanted to?

2.) Can God bring a spouse, job, or friend into your life, and if so, why not a set of circumstances that will bring saving faith?

3.) Why does the gospel message fail to reach some people entirely? Has God’s will to reach them been trumped by mortal man?

4.) Are all men offered equal access to salvation?

5.) What is the ultimate difference between those in Hell and those in Heaven? Is it just the decision they made?

I don’t often get answers to these kinds of questions in a thread like this one. I don’t think Arminians like to answer them.

Hippoists answer them easily enough, but Arminians find their answers ugly.

Lean not unto thine own understanding… (Proverbs 3:5)
-HisSheep

HisSheep---You guys (Arminians) still set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off.

Grubal---I'm not an Armenian nor a Calvinist. I have problems with both of these systems.

HisSheep---I don’t question your motives mind you, but this is not the sort of god that the bible describes.

Grubal---With all do respect, this is not the case.

HisSheep--- Is God powerful enough to save everyone if He wanted to?

Grubal--- God HAS provided a way to save everyone, and that's through Christ His Son. However, not ALL will receive the work of His Son.

HisSheep---Can God bring a spouse, job, or friend into your life, and if so, why not a set of circumstances that will bring saving faith?

Grubal--- We dare not limit the ALMIGHTY, of course He can bring these into our life. So far as God's Grace goes, He has, in His Love and mercy chosen the way He wants to deal with the sin of man and the Salvation of man. He has made His Grace available to ALL who will receive it, "His way"

HisSheep---Why does the gospel message fail to reach some people entirely? Has God’s will to reach them been trumped by mortal man?

Grubal---In today's modern world of global communication, there are very few that, haven't heard the Gospel preached...

HisSheep--- Are all men offered equal access to salvation?

Grubal--- Christ died for the "sins of the entire world" everyone who is a sinner, has equal access to the Grace of God...

HisSheep--- What is the ultimate difference between those in Hell and those in Heaven? Is it just the decision they made?[/COLOR]

Grubal---First of all, there will be "NO" one in Hell because of their sins, they will be their because they rejected God's Grace...Those in Heaven have, by faith, trusted in Christ and were "Born-again Spiritually."

HisSheep---

 

[HisSheep]

Growing up Arminian. 50+ years of Arminian understanding and teaching your list of questions pretty much covers the changing of my mind set.

The way the Word read to me now is so very different it is had to grasp it the same Book!

Man, do I know what you mean!

-HisSheep

 

[glorydaz]

You guys (Arminians) still set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off.

I don’t question your motives mind you, but this is not the sort of god that the bible describes.

Allow me to ask a few questions to help us to apply the Socratic method. (some of them I have asked before):

1.) Is God powerful enough to save everyone if He wanted to?

2.) Can God bring a spouse, job, or friend into your life, and if so, why not a set of circumstances that will bring saving faith?

3.) Why does the gospel message fail to reach some people entirely? Has God’s will to reach them been trumped by mortal man?

4.) Are all men offered equal access to salvation?

5.) What is the ultimate difference between those in Hell and those in Heaven? Is it just the decision they made?

I don’t often get answers to these kinds of questions in a thread like this one. I don’t think Arminians like to answer them.

Hippoists answer them easily enough, but Arminians find their answers ugly.

Lean not unto thine own understanding… (Proverbs 3:5)
-HisSheep

One would hope believers do not subscribe to any doctrine of man. Whenever one group subscribes to a doctrine, they somehow manage to ignore a multitude of verses that appear to say the opposite of what they hope to prove. In truth, every verse is God inspired and they do not contradict each other. The very fact that some must be ignored in order to hold on to a particular doctrine only proves there is a lack of understanding on the part of us humans.

Still, I would like to answer your questions as we reason together.

1. God is powerful enough to do anything He wants. Does he pick who will be saved and damned, or does He want us to come to Him freely?

2. God arranges our circumstances so that we have every chance to come to him. There is no quarantee a drowning victim will reach out for the line you toss them, however. He longs to gather us under His Wing, but He has chosen not to force us. Love must be won, not forced.

3. God won't force man to love Him.

4. Since God alone knows the heart of each of us, He knows who will hear His voice. That's His perogative...way beyond my understanding.

5. Those in hell (if you will) refused the free gift of eternal life.

These, "I used to be blind but now I can see" attitudes are really counterproductive to what members of the body of Christ should be displaying to the world. I know how easy it is to fall into that trap, but I pray we can have a real love for those with whom we might happen to disagree.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;578693]Well, we certainly can't disobey God's commands to believe and repent and expect to gain eternal life, if that's what you're asking.

Thank you for that. Yes we do not have the option to disobey God and live. So a freewill defined as the ability to disobey God is not a freewill even as paul said that Satan is the power working in the children of disobedience and God told Job that Leviathon was the king of all the children of pride.

We can and do choose to disobey God after we're born again, and God will chasten us as sons.

Yes, well said. We are not free to disobey God for He will chasten us. For we still have a carnality that must die after coming to Christ, and this carnal mind must be renewed by the Spirit of Truth.

There's not a thing wrong with being a pawn to Love, but that isn't the
question. The question is would a loving God open the prison doors and only
allow a select few out the door.

Yes, in his due time, according to His mercy lest we learn nothing from the experience. Scripture is clear on this. That is why it is the loely are chosen rich in faith, and why many of the last will be first.

Christ reconciled man to God by dealing with sin on the cross. He tells us
to come as He is the Way to eternal life. He draws us with His Light, not
willing that any should perish.

Yes , thank you for not diminishing God by saying we chose Him of our own wisdom, for God has chosen the foolish things to put to naught the wisdom of this world.

As for you last question, I don't believe we have a "right to be wicked", but
when sin entered the world, our access to God was cut off. Jesus' death,
burial, and resurrection became the Way we could once again have access to our
Creator.

Once again, well said. Then you recognize wickedness is not a choice of an enlightened mind, but a state of corruption. Also you admit that the Spirit of God is our righteousness whom without we can only be wicked and choose accordingly. Thank you, you have glorified God and not men...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

One would hope believers do not subscribe to any doctrine of man. Whenever one group subscribes to a doctrine, they somehow manage to ignore a multitude of verses that appear to say the opposite of what they hope to prove. In truth, every verse is God inspired and they do not contradict each other. The very fact that some must be ignored in order to hold on to a particular doctrine only proves there is a lack of understanding on the part of us humans.

Still, I would like to answer your questions as we reason together.

1. God is powerful enough to do anything He wants. Does he pick who will be saved and damned, or does He want us to come to Him freely?

2. God arranges our circumstances so that we have every chance to come to him. There is no quarantee a drowning victim will reach out for the line you toss them, however. He longs to gather us under His Wing, but He has chosen not to force us. Love must be won, not forced.

3. God won't force man to love Him.

4. Since God alone knows the heart of each of us, He knows who will hear His voice. That's His perogative...way beyond my understanding.

5. Those in hell (if you will) refused the free gift of eternal life.

These, "I used to be blind but now I can see" attitudes are really counterproductive to what members of the body of Christ should be displaying to the world. I know how easy it is to fall into that trap, but I pray we can have a real love for those with whom we might happen to disagree.

I'm in agreement with you...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Man, do I know what you mean!

-HisSheep

Were my answers sufficient my friend ?

 

[childeye]

Growing up Arminian. 50+ years of Arminian understanding and teaching your list of questions pretty much covers the changing of my mind set.

The way the Word reads to me now is so very different it is hard to grasp it the same Book!

Great point Reba, for God say He has two ways, one for those who fear Him and one for those who Love Him and scripture is understood from two different perspectives.

 

[HisSheep]

Were my answers sufficient my friend ?

What is the standard by which they may be deemed sufficient? It's just a discussion. You did sort of dodge a few things. I noticed, if that's what you mean... ;)

HisSheep---You guys (Arminians) still set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off.

Grubal---I'm not an Armenian nor a Calvinist. I have problems with both of these systems.

You’ve missed the meat and potatoes of my statement. Let me rephrase it for you… You, Grubal, set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off…

HisSheep--- Is God powerful enough to save everyone if He wanted to?

Grubal--- God HAS provided a way to save everyone, and that's through Christ His Son. However, not ALL will receive the work of His Son.

God does not merely “provide a way”. He is author and finisher (Heb 12:2), He keeps us by His power. (1 Peter 1:5) He is a Shepherd, and He guides and steers the believer all the way home, loosing none of those whom He was pleased to make anew when they were dead and deserving of nothing. Salvation is God’s doing. He causes us to walk in His statutes:

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:27)

I hated God right up until He proved Himself to me. He broke me down in disaster and strife and kicked my donkey until I cried out to Him for mercy. Then, in an instant, He filled me up to the point of laughter. How could I decline an offer like that? No person could possibly deny the offer I received. My very will had been changed. He does not do this for everyone. If He did, everyone would be converted, I promise you. We may claim no credit for our salvation. Not for choosing Him, accepting Him, nor even for wanting Him… This verse (especially the KJV) should tell you how effective our will is in matters of salvation:

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Romans 9:16)

HisSheep---Can God bring a spouse, job, or friend into your life, and if so, why not a set of circumstances that will bring saving faith?

Grubal--- We dare not limit the ALMIGHTY, of course He can bring these into our life. So far as God's Grace goes, He has, in His Love and mercy chosen the way He wants to deal with the sin of man and the Salvation of man. He has made His Grace available to ALL who will receive it, "His way"

I do not limit God. On the contrary, against much vocal opposition I acknowledge His sovereign hand in all things; no limits. However, He has told us that He does not offer grace to all:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:11-15)

HisSheep---Why does the gospel message fail to reach some people entirely? Has God’s will to reach them been trumped by mortal man?

Grubal---In today's modern world of global communication, there are very few that, haven't heard the Gospel preached...

Even so, many still never hear… certainly, we have far greater access here in the U.S than those in Saudi Arabia, right? How is that fair? And what about those who lived in “Jesus free” regions long before electricity and radio… before missionaries and the like? Billions have died never having received the offer you claim everyone gets…

HisSheep--- Are all men offered equal access to salvation?

Grubal--- Christ died for the "sins of the entire world" everyone who is a sinner, has equal access to the Grace of God...

We covered the “equal access” theory above… But as for Jesus’ dying for the sins of the world, you’re right: through Christ’s death the curse will be lifted from all the Earth and the earth will be redeemed from sin.

HisSheep--- What is the ultimate difference between those in Hell and those in Heaven? Is it just the decision they made?[/COLOR]

Grubal---First of all, there will be "NO" one in Hell because of their sins, they will be their because they rejected God's Grace...Those in Heaven have, by faith, trusted in Christ and were "Born-again Spiritually."

You sort of avoided the question... What is the difference between those in Hell and those in Heaven... it's the choice they made right? All other things are equal, right? If that's what you think then just say it, but my bible says it is all up to God. He has mercy on whom He chooses.

I responded to this first phrase of yours once before. (no one in Hell because of their sins...) This, in blue, is how I responded then:

…But this is not a biblical teaching that you offer us...

If this were the case, we should never spread the gospel message because only those who reject it are condemned to Hell. Folks can’t reject what they don’t hear.

Rather, the bible teaches this:
1.) All men deserve Hell exactly because of their sins.
2.) Only God’s grace through Christ rescues the elect from judgment, under which no man could stand.

Furthermore, no one can reject God’s grace… His grace is the very REASON He cannot be denied. Paul was a murderer, Peter a denier, and Thomas a doubter. (Just 3 of many examples of God’s grace.) The Hell bent condition of these 3 men didn’t stop Jesus from using them mightily and saving them. If necessary, He will even offer proof to give the gift of faith to those whom He is saving. He will lose none.

Original:http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=38688&p=575521&viewfull=1#post575521

Furthermore:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

And…

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

This verse definitely refers to the “second death”, since even the elect don’t escape the first death…

When the bible says we were “Dead in our sins” (Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13)… in means we were Hell bound… because of our sins…

We are ALL Hell bound because of our sin when, in His mercy, God intervenes to give the elect life...

Must Get To Bed.

-HisSheep

 

[glorydaz]

glorydaz - There's not a thing wrong with being a pawn to Love, but that isn't the
question. The question is would a loving God open the prison doors and only
allow a select few out the door.

Childeye - Yes, in his due time, according to His mercy lest we learn nothing from the experience. Scripture is clear on this. That is why it is the loely are chosen rich in faith, and why many of the last will be first.

You say, yes, that God will only allow a select few out the door?
What do we learn from that? That God is unfair?

No, WHOSOEVER knocks the door will open. WHOSOEVER seeks will find. WHOSOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

glorydaz - Christ reconciled man to God by dealing with sin on the cross. He tells us
to come as He is the Way to eternal life. He draws us with His Light, not
willing that any should perish.

Childeye - Yes , thank you for not diminishing God by saying we chose Him of our own wisdom, for God has chosen the foolish things to put to naught the wisdom of this world.

We don't choose Him out of our own wisdom, but we do choose to accept and not reject. That is not diminishing God at all since it's the very program He set up.

glorydaz - As for you last question, I don't believe we have a "right to be wicked", but
when sin entered the world, our access to God was cut off. Jesus' death,
burial, and resurrection became the Way we could once again have access to our
Creator.

Childeye - Once again, well said. Then you recognize wickedness is not a choice of an enlightened mind, but a state of corruption. Also you admit that the Spirit of God is our righteousness whom without we can only be wicked and choose accordingly. Thank you, you have glorified God and not men...

Enlightened mind? Well, it's a little more complicated than you've laid it out, but I will say man is without excuse. So to say we have no choice but to do evil is not correct. True, all men sin and come short of the glory of God. The glory of God is a high bar. But, God did instill the knowledge of Godliness when he created us with a conscience. Romans 1 is pretty clear we can't use any ingrained depravity as an excuse.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Grubal Muruch]

What is the standard by which they may be deemed sufficient? It's just a discussion. You did sort of dodge a few things. I noticed, if that's what you mean... ;)



You’ve missed the meat and potatoes of my statement. Let me rephrase it for you… You, Grubal, set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off…



God does not merely “provide a wayâ€. He is author and finisher (Heb 12:2), He keeps us by His power. (1 Peter 1:5) He is a Shepherd, and He guides and steers the believer all the way home, loosing none of those whom He was pleased to make anew when they were dead and deserving of nothing. Salvation is God’s doing. He causes us to walk in His statutes:

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:27)

I hated God right up until He proved Himself to me. He broke me down in disaster and strife and kicked my donkey until I cried out to Him for mercy. Then, in an instant, He filled me up to the point of laughter. How could I decline an offer like that? No person could possibly deny the offer I received. My very will had been changed. He does not do this for everyone. If He did, everyone would be converted, I promise you. We may claim no credit for our salvation. Not for choosing Him, accepting Him, nor even for wanting Him… This verse (especially the KJV) should tell you how effective our will is in matters of salvation:

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Romans 9:16)



I do not limit God. On the contrary, against much vocal opposition I acknowledge His sovereign hand in all things; no limits. However, He has told us that He does not offer grace to all:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Romans 9:11-15)



Even so, many still never hear… certainly, we have far greater access here in the U.S than those in Saudi Arabia, right? How is that fair? And what about those who lived in “Jesus free†regions long before electricity and radio… before missionaries and the like? Billions have died never having received the offer you claim everyone gets…



We covered the “equal access†theory above… But as for Jesus’ dying for the sins of the world, you’re right: through Christ’s death the curse will be lifted from all the Earth and the earth will be redeemed from sin.



You sort of avoided the question... What is the difference between those in Hell and those in Heaven... it's the choice they made right? All other things are equal, right? If that's what you think then just say it, but my bible says it is all up to God. He has mercy on whom He chooses.

I responded to this first phrase of yours once before. (no one in Hell because of their sins...) This, in blue, is how I responded then:

…But this is not a biblical teaching that you offer us...

If this were the case, we should never spread the gospel message because only those who reject it are condemned to Hell. Folks can’t reject what they don’t hear.

Rather, the bible teaches this:
1.) All men deserve Hell exactly because of their sins.
2.) Only God’s grace through Christ rescues the elect from judgment, under which no man could stand.

Furthermore, no one can reject God’s grace… His grace is the very REASON He cannot be denied. Paul was a murderer, Peter a denier, and Thomas a doubter. (Just 3 of many examples of God’s grace.) The Hell bent condition of these 3 men didn’t stop Jesus from using them mightily and saving them. If necessary, He will even offer proof to give the gift of faith to those whom He is saving. He will lose none.

Original:http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=38688&p=575521&viewfull=1#post575521

Furthermore:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

And…

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

This verse definitely refers to the “second deathâ€, since even the elect don’t escape the first death…

When the bible says we were “Dead in our sins†(Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13)… in means we were Hell bound… because of our sins…

We are ALL Hell bound because of our sin when, in His mercy, God intervenes to give the elect life...

Must Get To Bed.

-HisSheep

HisSheep---]What is the standard by which they may be deemed sufficient? It's just a discussion.

Grubal---Usually when one asks a question, one expects a well thought out answer. But that is neither here nor there I suppose...

HisSheep---
You’ve missed the meat and potatoes of my statement. Let me rephrase it for you… You, Grubal, set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off…

Grubal---The ingredient that you left out of the equation is, free-will...God indeed set up His offer of mercy and forgiveness by covering the sins of ALL who would receive it. God choose to create man with a free-will, so, as I presume, to avoid the creation of beings that, run around like puppets or mere pawns. He created man with a choice to choose or not. God is aware that, not ALL well receive this gift. So it's not a matter of His, "pulling it off" or not. It's a matter of who will, and who will not be with God in eternity...

You say that God does not just merely “provide a way†but, that's what He has done, provide a way...Not ALL will take advantage of that way however... Since, as you claim, I avoid your questions, I'll only stick with this message, and that is, Christ came to die on a cross to pay for the sins of ALL mankind. God's mercy and forgiveness is open to ALL men everywhere, who will put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. And by the work of the Holy Spirit they will be "Born-again Spiritually" and placed into the body of Christ. And am assured of a place in heaven when they leave this "mortal coil."

 

[glorydaz]

Great point Reba, for God say He has two ways, one for those who fear Him and one for those who Love Him and scripture is understood from two different perspectives.

I really hope you're not suggesting what it sounds like. ;)

 

[glorydaz]

You’ve missed the meat and potatoes of my statement. Let me rephrase it for you… You, Grubal, set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off…

Uh oh. That is not what Grubal was saying. We really must avoid rephrasing what has been said.

Do you deny that God is not willing that any should perish? Let me refresh your memory.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

What then? Perhaps you may be wrong about God setting it up deliberately for man to choose whether to accept of reject God's gift. You really can't have it both ways.

 

[glorydaz]

HisSheep---] HisSheep---
You’ve missed the meat and potatoes of my statement. Let me rephrase it for you… You, Grubal, set up a theology in which God wants to save ALL people, yet He is unable to pull it off…

Grubal---The ingredient that you left out of the equation is, free-will...God indeed set up His offer of mercy and forgiveness by covering the sins of ALL who would receive it. God choose to create man with a free-will, so, as I presume, to avoid the creation of beings that, run around like puppets or mere pawns. He created man with a choice to choose or not. God is aware that, not ALL well receive this gift. So it's not a matter of His, "pulling it off" or not. It's a matter of who will, and who will not be with God in eternity...

You say that God does not just merely “provide a way†but, that's what He has done, provide a way...Not ALL will take advantage of that way however... Since, as you claim, I avoid your questions, I'll only stick with this message, and that is, Christ came to die on a cross to pay for the sins of ALL mankind. God's mercy and forgiveness is open to ALL men everywhere, who will put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. And by the work of the Holy Spirit they will be "Born-again Spiritually" and placed into the body of Christ. And am assured of a place in heaven when they leave this "mortal coil."

See, I should have waited and let you speak for yourself. Sorry, and AMEN.