Only the called are chosen, however, not all the called are chosen.

[Grubal Muruch]

See, I should have waited and let you speak for yourself. Sorry, and AMEN.

That's OK, we all need a little help sometimes. Thanks brother...

 

[childeye]

I really hope you're not suggesting what it sounds like. ;)

The prophets spoke of two ways. This can be seen in many scriptures. I took this from another thread so others might comment on it here.

Because there is an inherent judgment by which we judge ourselves according to how we judge. For example. How fair is it that Jesus suffered for my sin if I freely and knowingly chose to sin? Wouldn't any wicked thief gladly let someone else take the rap for their crime? If we have a freewill as you say, then I would not trade God's only begotten son to the slaughter in order to save myself. Any thief would but I wouldn't. My best judgment is I would rather accept my just death as I deserve rather than see any man pay for my sins, much less the son of God. Otherwise in my conscience I am damned for eternity.

But, if on the other hand, mankind was deceived in innocence into serving sin and was now trapped so he could not do otherwise. Then I could accept that Jesus died on my behalf to rescue me from death because it was an act of loving pardon due to the fact that I had been deceived from the beginning. Then I am not a thief in accepting his sacrifice for mankind and my conscience is clean. So it is that Jesus said, forgive them they know not what they do, and this is why I believe Jesus would not condemn anyone. Likewise after coming to Christ and accepting his sacrifice for me because of this circumstance, I would be obligated to forgive all those who tresspass against me for the same reasons. I would love my enemies because I know they can't help it. I would turn the other cheek and pray for those who despise me and persecute me. Only under this scenario can I see how a man could be presented holy and blameless before God. This to me is the cup of Christ in which I will gladly and most thankfully share. But the cup that says we freely sin and is of the mind of a thief I will not drink, for I would drink damnation to myself.

I believe these two scenarios are also presented by the two thieve's differing perspectives on the two opposite sides of the cross of Christ.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;578837]You say, yes, that God will only allow a select few out the
door?

What do we learn from that? That God is unfair?

He let's a few out in His due time according to his mercy. That is to say that we all do not at once come to the Christ, but a few at a time as the Gospel is preached and ground is tilled and watered; a few at a time, or as scripture says, for God desires that all men come to the knowledge of the Truth to be testified to in due time.
Since we all were dead in our sins, can it be said God is unfair because He didn't let us all die? He will have mercy where He will have mercy.

We don't choose Him out of our own wisdom, but we do choose to accept and not
reject. That is not diminishing God at all since it's the very program He set
up.

Yes He reveals the hidden wisdom which had the princes of this world had, they would not have crucified the Christ.

Enlightened mind? Well, it's a little more complicated than you've laid it
out, but I will say man is without excuse. So to say we have no choice but to
do evil is not correct. True, all men sin and come short of the glory of God.
The glory of God is a high bar. But, God did instill the knowledge of Godliness
when he created us with a conscience. Romans 1 is pretty clear we can't use any
ingrained depravity as an excuse.

Romans 1 doesn't say we can't use an ingrained depravity as an excuse. It says we have no excuse to not know there is an order of stations appointed by the Godhead. And to prove it God gave men over to the lusts of their flesh to show that without Him Who is the Light there is nothing but ingrained depravity.

 

[HisSheep]

Uh oh. That is not what Grubal was saying. We really must avoid rephrasing what has been said.

Glorydaz, I rephrased my OWN statement... Grubal missed the thrust of my point and I rephrased it to eliminate the word that drew his attention.

This makes me feel like my post was skimmed. What should have brought the conversation one level deeper has been sidestepped. Too bad I stayed up late to write it.

Do you deny that God is not willing that any should perish? Let me refresh your memory.

You’re making a very common error in your use of 2 Peter 3:9. The book of 2 Peter is addressed specifically to believers as we read in verse 1:1:

...to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:1)

Therefore, anything in the Epistle concerning the addressee should be applied only to the addressee.

Consider the whole verse, preceded by verse 8 for context:

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2Peter 3:8-9)

Note: In verse 8 we see that Peter is writing to, “belovedâ€; his Christian brothers. In verse 9, Peter tell us (still addressing the faithful) that God is long-suffering us-ward (toward the Christians, to whom the letter is intended).

Be careful of translations that mess this up, injecting a “new†meaning…

What then? Perhaps you may be wrong about God setting it up deliberately for man to choose whether to accept of reject God's gift. You really can't have it both ways.

???Is this really directed at ME… I only want it ONE way; God’s way... He chooses His people. Just like the bible consistently says.

The human mind is prone to deny it, though!

-HisSheep

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Glorydaz, I rephrased my OWN statement... Grubal missed the thrust of my point and I rephrased it to eliminate the word that drew his attention.

This makes me feel like my post was skimmed. What should have brought the conversation one level deeper has been sidestepped. Too bad I stayed up late to write it.



You’re making a very common error in your use of 2 Peter 3:9. The book of 2 Peter is addressed specifically to believers as we read in verse 1:1:

...to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:1)

Therefore, anything in the Epistle concerning the addressee should be applied only to the addressee.

Consider the whole verse, preceded by verse 8 for context:

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2Peter 3:8-9)

Note: In verse 8 we see that Peter is writing to, “belovedâ€; his Christian brothers. In verse 9, Peter tell us (still addressing the faithful) that God is long-suffering us-ward (toward the Christians, to whom the letter is intended).

Be careful of translations that mess this up, injecting a “new†meaning…



???Is this really directed at ME… I only want it ONE way; God’s way... He chooses His people. Just like the bible consistently says.

The human mind is prone to deny it, though!

-HisSheep

{The human mind is prone to deny it, though!}

But, you forget about the working of the Holy Spirit on each person to bring them to the truth of God's offer of Salvation to ALL who will receive it...Remember we're not left to the thoughts of our mind alone, but His urging...

 

[HisSheep]

But, you forget about the working of the Holy Spirit on each person to bring them to the truth of God's offer of Salvation to ALL who will receive it...Remember we're not left to the thoughts of our mind alone, but His urging...

Again, I feel like I keep getting into some substantial stuff and I frequently get a two to four sentence, sweeping doctrinal statement in reply, that fails to touch on any of the substantive points I make. It gets old. Does anyone else see this pattern?

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

But, you forget about the working of the Holy Spirit on each person to bring them to the truth of God's offer of Salvation to ALL who will receive it...Remember we're not left to the thoughts of our mind alone, but His urging...

Please don't overlook the salient point of my post:

Do you agree with my assessment of 2 Peter, chapter 3?

...That 2 Peter 3:9 does not mean that God is, "not willing that any human should perish"?

...That it actually means that God is patient with believers, and isn't willing that believers perish.

The letter is addressed to believers, and the whole of chapter 3 is obviously directed at Christians, and NOT the world at large!

This is too important a distinction to omit; this book is written to Christians:

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:8-9)

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

But, you forget about the working of the Holy Spirit on each person to bring them to the truth of God's offer of Salvation to ALL who will receive it...Remember we're not left to the thoughts of our mind alone, but His urging...

You’re right that He brings the offer to ALL who will receive it…. He sees to that. All of the elect (whom He foreknew) will receive it, so He brings it to them.

I certainly haven’t “forgotten†about “the working of the Holy Spirit on each personâ€. This is simply NOT a biblical teaching.

The bible says that everyone He calls, comes. God cannot “work†on a simple creature and fail!

Those in Heaven
Are those He justified
Are those He called
Are those He predestined. (HisSheep Upside Down Paraphrase 2011)

Really it goes like this… compare if you like:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

From top to bottom or bottom to top, the logic is the same. He calls sheep… sheep follow.

By the way, how do YOU paraphrase the verse? (Romans 8:30) What do YOU make of it? How do I have it wrong.

-HisSheep

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Again, I feel like I keep getting into some substantial stuff and I frequently get a two to four sentence, sweeping doctrinal statement in reply, that fails to touch on any of the substantive points I make. It gets old. Does anyone else see this pattern?

-HisSheep

Does that mean you desire to be involved in some form of "verbal fisticuffs?"

 

[glorydaz]

The prophets spoke of two ways. This can be seen in many scriptures. I took this from another thread so others might comment on it here.

Because there is an inherent judgment by which we judge ourselves according to how we judge. For example. How fair is it that Jesus suffered for my sin if I freely and knowingly chose to sin? Wouldn't any wicked thief gladly let someone else take the rap for their crime? If we have a freewill as you say, then I would not trade God's only begotten son to the slaughter in order to save myself. Any thief would but I wouldn't. My best judgment is I would rather accept my just death as I deserve rather than see any man pay for my sins, much less the son of God. Otherwise in my conscience I am damned for eternity.

But, if on the other hand, mankind was deceived in innocence into serving sin and was now trapped so he could not do otherwise. Then I could accept that Jesus died on my behalf to rescue me from death because it was an act of loving pardon due to the fact that I had been deceived from the beginning. Then I am not a thief in accepting his sacrifice for mankind and my conscience is clean. So it is that Jesus said, forgive them they know not what they do, and this is why I believe Jesus would not condemn anyone. Likewise after coming to Christ and accepting his sacrifice for me because of this circumstance, I would be obligated to forgive all those who tresspass against me for the same reasons. I would love my enemies because I know they can't help it. I would turn the other cheek and pray for those who despise me and persecute me. Only under this scenario can I see how a man could be presented holy and blameless before God. This to me is the cup of Christ in which I will gladly and most thankfully share. But the cup that says we freely sin and is of the mind of a thief I will not drink, for I would drink damnation to myself.

I believe these two scenarios are also presented by the two thieve's differing perspectives on the two opposite sides of the cross of Christ.

That's very interesting. It certainly would give man an excuse, wouldn't it? Unfortunately, the Word says man is without excuse. "The devil made me do it." "I'm innocent...just caught in the devil's snare." When Adam chose to sin, sin entered the world, it didn't enter into every newborn baby. Each of us is responsible for our own sin, it can't be thrown back on Adam.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Of course man chooses to sin. Or he can choose to follow his conscience. It can obviously be done, because Jesus, himself, was without sin. Hebrews 2:17 tells us He was like us in "all things"....."Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." He was tempted more than we ever are, and He had no sin.

The only difference between the two thieves on the cross, was that one believed and repented and the other one didn't.

 

[glorydaz]

You’re making a very common error in your use of 2 Peter 3:9. The book of 2 Peter is addressed specifically to believers as we read in verse 1:1:

Therefore, anything in the Epistle concerning the addressee should be applied only to the addressee.

Consider the whole verse, preceded by verse 8 for context:

Note: In verse 8 we see that Peter is writing to, “belovedâ€; his Christian brothers. In verse 9, Peter tell us (still addressing the faithful) that God is long-suffering us-ward (toward the Christians, to whom the letter is intended).

All the letters were written to the beloved, but that doesn't change what the verse is saying. He is talking about the "day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." Notice, too, the Lord is not willing that any should perish (that won't be the believers who have been born again), but that all should come to repentance. The believers have already repented. God calls on all men everywhere to repent. Which is exactly what is being spoken of in these verses.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[glorydaz]

The bible says that everyone He calls, comes. God cannot “work†on a simple creature and fail!

No, not everyone He calls will come. The Word is replete with examples...

Isaiah 30:15 - "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not."

Jeremiah 29:19 - "Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD."

Matthew 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

It does say we can't come unless God draws us first. God draws all men, but not all will come. This is where man's free will enters the picture. John 6:44 - "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

From top to bottom or bottom to top, the logic is the same. He calls sheep… sheep follow.

By the way, how do YOU paraphrase the verse? (Romans 8:30) What do YOU make of it? How do I have it wrong.

-HisSheep

You need to take into account verse 29 to understand 30.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God in his infinate wisdom knew who would answer His call to repent and believe. Those believers were adopted as sons, and those He predestined (determined) would be conformed to the image of His Son. Those He called, who repented and believed, He also justified and glorified.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Please don't overlook the salient point of my post:

Do you agree with my assessment of 2 Peter, chapter 3?

...That 2 Peter 3:9 does not mean that God is, "not willing that any human should perish"?

...That it actually means that God is patient with believers, and isn't willing that believers perish.

The letter is addressed to believers, and the whole of chapter 3 is obviously directed at Christians, and NOT the world at large!

This is too important a distinction to omit; this book is written to Christians:

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:8-9)

-HisSheep

God is not willing that, "ANY" human should perish. That is according to the wishes (will) of God ultimately. But, unfortunately, not ALL will respond to God's Grace, forgiveness, and mercy. There's still the "human element" of free-will involved...

If we refer to Calvinistic belief, then we must take into consideration the idea that God, "chose" those whom would be saved before the foundation of the world. Therefore, why would He, have to be patient, He already has deemed it to be a "done deal." Remember 2 Peter speaks about, God not having "time restraints" and such ? (a day is a thousand year's a thousand year's as a day.)

You may say that, the letter is written to Christians but, the statement made, covers ALL peoples of the earth...

We must keep in mind that God's Grace is offered to ALL who are willing to place their faith in Christ alone for their Salvation...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

All the letters were written to the beloved, but that doesn't change what the verse is saying. He is talking about the "day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." Notice, too, the Lord is not willing that any should perish (that won't be the believers who have been born again), but that all should come to repentance. The believers have already repented. God calls on all men everywhere to repent. Which is exactly what is being spoken of in these verses.

You are, as usual right on. I liked your point that Peter wasn't talking about those who already believed, but those whom God wanted to come to repentance. That being the unbelievers. Great point...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

No, not everyone He calls will come. The Word is replete with examples...

Isaiah 30:15 - "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not."

Jeremiah 29:19 - "Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD."

Matthew 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

You have wisdom friend...

It does say we can't come unless God draws us first. God draws all men, but not all will come. This is where man's free will enters the picture. John 6:44 - "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."




You need to take into account verse 29 to understand 30.

God in his infinate wisdom knew who would answer His call to repent and believe. Those believers were adopted as sons, and those He predestined (determined) would be conformed to the image of His Son. Those He called, who repented and believed, He also justified and glorified.

You have wisdom friend...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You’re right that He brings the offer to ALL who will receive it…. He sees to that. All of the elect (whom He foreknew) will receive it, so He brings it to them.

I certainly haven’t “forgotten†about “the working of the Holy Spirit on each personâ€. This is simply NOT a biblical teaching.

The bible says that everyone He calls, comes. God cannot “work†on a simple creature and fail!

Those in Heaven
Are those He justified
Are those He called
Are those He predestined. (HisSheep Upside Down Paraphrase 2011)

Really it goes like this… compare if you like:

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30)

From top to bottom or bottom to top, the logic is the same. He calls sheep… sheep follow.

By the way, how do YOU paraphrase the verse? (Romans 8:30) What do YOU make of it? How do I have it wrong.

-HisSheep

The answer to that lies in the previous verse (8:29) "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"

For whom He knew, (knew before it would actually happen in the confines of history) He also predestined (not the elect, but anyone who would receive His Grace through their faith) to be "conformed" to the image of His Son. The idea expressed in the two verses is, that God knew ahead of time (not being constrained by time) who would receive His Son and therefore decried that they would be conformed into the image of His Son. These verses are not dealing with any so called "chosen-elect" before the foundation of the world...

 

[childeye]

The answer to that lies in the previous verse (8:29) "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son"

For whom He knew, (knew before it would actually happen in the confines of history) He also predestined (not the elect, but anyone who would receive His Grace through their faith) to be "conformed" to the image of His Son. The idea expressed in the two verses is, that God knew ahead of time (not being constrained by time) who would receive His Son and therefore decried that they would be conformed into the image of His Son. These verses are not dealing with any so called "chosen-elect" before the foundation of the world...

Grubal, after reading this I don't see how you can say you believe in freewill. For if God knew ahead of time who would believe and therefore who would not, these both would be destined to believe as they believe without any ability to choose otherwise. This is by definition determinism. Moreover, it must be a sifting taking place. For the ones who believe, must have some prerequisite faith that causes them to believe, that the others do not have. Hence Jesus says, I know you that you do not have the love of God in your heart for the one in whom God sent, in him you do not believe.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal, after reading this I don't see how you can say you believe in freewill. For if God knew ahead of time who would believe and therefore who would not, these both would be destined to believe as they believe without any ability to choose otherwise. This is by definition determinism. Moreover, it must be a sifting taking place. For the ones who believe, must have some prerequisite faith that causes them to believe, that the others do not have. Hence Jesus says, I know you that you do not have the love of God in your heart for the one in whom God sent, in him you do not believe.

Because God was able to see into the future, (remember there is NO time restrictions in the eternal) who would receive He's Son and who would not, doesn't mean that God took it upon Himself to, "choose" who would believe. Quite the contrary, God leaves that choice to each and every person. That's why we have "free-will."

God's Grace is offered to ALL men. But not ALL will respond...

 

[childeye]

Because God was able to see into the future, (remember there is NO time restrictions in the eternal) who would receive He's Son and who would not, doesn't mean that God took it upon Himself to, "choose" who would believe. Quite the contrary, God leaves that choice to each and every person. That's why we have "free-will."

God's Grace is offered to ALL men. But not ALL will respond...

I not only know God sees the future, but God is everywhere at once. It says in Isaiah He declares the end from the beginning and brings it to come to pass. I think you missed my point. Whereas you see men choosing freely, I see God sifting grain and chaff. How do I know this? Because Jesus said he came to divide and also that if you weren't for him, you were against him. One could not choose either way and yet you were sifted. This makes this properly determinism not freewill.