Open Theism

[Drew]

You god is a false god of your own creation

I am not the one who wrote the verses from 2 Kings 1 where God seems to change his plan. I am entirely open (no pun intended) to the possibility that this passage can be reconciled to a view where the future is fully settled from the foundations of time.

I just need someone to provide the relevant explanation.....

 

[Drew]

As a kind of general response to JM's thought-provoking post (I do not have time to address all the individual questions just yet).

I think that open theism is difficult to even consider (despite its powerful Biblical support, as has been shown) partly because we simply cannot imagine how we could trust a God that does not fully know the future. On a related note, we cannot understand how God can really be "in control" unless He controls every single event in the Universe (including the actions of his creatures).

I submit that our imaginations are limited. We should loosen our grip on the idea that everything must be laid out in a script in order for God to be in control. This is how we think control is achieved - not necessarily how God works. I think that the wisdom of God is revealed by the fact that He always accomplishes his purpose despite the fact that not all the variables are under his control - God has seemingly given up some of his power to control by choosing to give us free will.

And yet the wisdom and subtlety of our God is made all the more amazing by virtue of the fact that He still accomplishes his purposes. There is no contradiction here - God can indeed give up some control and some knowledge and still work out his purposes. He still holds enough of the cards to ensure that his purposes will be achieved.

Let's say I am playing chess against a grand-master. I am free to make any move I want. It is precisely this freedom that makes the grand-master's ability to always defeat me all the more remarkable.

A God that has to be in control of every minute event and know every outcome is not really that impressive a God. A God that has the subtlety and sophistication to accomplish his purposes with less than perfect control or knowledge - now that is really impressive.

 

[TanNinety]

Even though I am not an open theist I will attempt to answer because my revelations coincide with their views.

How could anyone trust a god who makes mistakes, who learns, who can't control the hearts of His people, who must wait to see what happens? Is this the stuff of confidence?

It is about faith. Trusting in Gods good judgment and in His will. Confidence is when you are accepting the possibility of a contrary outcome to what you desire and putting your faith that the outcome will be in favor to you. So, yes.

There is less faith in accepting God when the future is settled than actually putting more faith and trust in Him and believing that God will work all things out. Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose for them.

Do you believe that God learns?
According to Open theism, God does not know the future free will choices of people, though He knows all possible choices they could make. Therefore, when people finally make those choices, God then learns what those choices are. Therefore, the God of open theism learns; that is, he learns what becomes the choices of his created beings.

Lets calculate 22/7 = 3.14285. Now that’s not all of it. It’s a part of the result. Now if I wanted I could have calculated it 22/7 = 3.142857142. And that’s not all of it. I can further calculate to more decimals. Now, not knowing the rest decimals is it questioning my knowledge of division? ..Do I have to learn more of anything to further calculate it?
Am I able to calculate it to 100 decimal places? Yes. It is a knowledge that I can restrict or release of how I want to calculate 22/7. Gods big calculated pictures come out in His prophesies. That does not mean He orchestrates every single event in the universe and everything should be under His control.

You say God is not in control in open theism. If God is in control in closed theism why did the angels rebel? Did His control fail?

Do you believe that God can make mistakes? For example, can God believe one thing will happen and it does not?

If that is not a possibility why do you think the angels rebelled? If they knew there is no escaping Gods foreknowledge, how was satan able to persuade 1/3rd of the angels to rebel?

If God learns what people will do only after they have done it, then is it possible for God to expect someone to do one thing and yet he doesn't do it? Is it possible?

Jesus expected the disciples to be able to cast out demons after He gave them the authority, but the disciples failed once. And Jesus had to say “o ye of little faithâ€Â
God expected israel to repent and sent elisha, but they didn’t so God had to give israel over to hazaels hands.

If yes, then you propose a god who makes mistakes and learns from his mistakes. Can such a god be trusted? Is such a god biblical?

Mistake? If telling truth at my work gets me fired is that my “mistake†to tell the truth? If pushing someone that they fall flat on their face and break their nose from in front of a speeding diesel truck, is that a mistake to have pushed someone? If you are using the word “mistake†to mean miss the mark, then you are not looking at the big picture. God does not miss the mark with His prophesies, His grandeur plans.

If no, are you saying he guesses the future properly every time? If so, then he is knowing the future free will choices of all people.

I fail to see why God has to predict all of the future before it comes to pass. It suffices to have a big picture and then work all things towards it.

How do you know that His making you isn't a mistake?

God created a process of “procreatingâ€Â. He created adam and eve and the rest came from them and so on so forth through a process of procreation. I do not believe that there is a check list that God maintains with names that He is checking off and searching for people who are pro-creating so He can put them in the woman’s womb. How do you explain pregnancy because of rape, incest? Pregnancies of deformed babies, miscarriages? Did God personally design that rape and incest for the babies to be born that way. He gave us a tool of “reproduction†and we use it to create humanity.

The Bible says that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). If this is so, then how did God know which sins to place on Christ since we hadn't committed them yet when Jesus was crucified?
If you say that God put all possible sins that could be committed on Jesus, then how would God know which sins would actually be committed? If He put all potential sin on Jesus, then there might be sins placed on Christ that were never committed by anyone.
If you say that God put every kind of sin on Christ, then Jesus didn't bear our sins in His body, did He since your position would mean that individual sins were not born by Christ.

Below is a response from Drew.

The gift of salvation has the characteristic of being like a blank check. The nature of the gift is such that it is "open-ended" to cover any sins that I might commit.

I can give my friend a blank check in anticipation of his future debts. He may not yet have fallen into any particular debt, but I know that he will fall into some debt, the check is there in case he does). So my check is efficacious for debts he has yet to fall into.

A key point: The act of writing the blank check fully suffices for debts yet to be fallen into. So I have really already paid for my friends debt - it is a completed act, just like Jesus' work is a completed act. The act of bearing my friend's debt lies in the writing of the blank check, it does not lie in the cashing of the check by the recipient. The writing of the check is the act of irreversible commitment (even if the dollar figures are not known in advance) - it is the act where I incur loss. No matter what actual debt my friend incurs, there is no escape for me- I will pay the debt.

Returning to the specifics of salvation: Jesus dies on the cross 2000 years ago. Even if He does not know all the sins that will be committed by men through the centuries to follow, He does know that all will sin (my version of "open theism" is not "wide open") and that even 1 sin separates us from God. So he pays the price at Calvary. The cross does indeed "seal the deal", it is a finished act in the sense that future sins, whatever they might turn out to be, are washed away by the gift of the unblemished Christ.

There is nothing in this texts rules out an open-ended gift. The text works perfectly well with such an interpretation. I simply do not see how this text demands that God knows the exact list of sins - like a blank check, the gift of salvation is open-ended enough to accomodate the future.

I think that there are other arguments to be made, but I will stop here at present.

Now let's play fair here. I have given an account, I have actually strung some words of explanation together.

The above explanation was from Drew in another thread which I lifted here which perfectly answers your question.

You god is a false god of your own creation.

My God is a Father of what HE has revealed Himself to me rather than what people make Him to be according to tradition.
Drew’s post clearly explains how there is more glory and grandeur in Gods plan in an open view than a fixed future all knowing view.

Come on, if you are watching your best teams playing football, is there greater victory in knowing all of your opponents moves and plans or by playing the game as it comes and adapting to whatever your opponent throws? How then you say open theism undermines Gods capability of being in control?

 

[Solo]

Foreknowledge of God & Open Theism

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Open Theism is a theological construct which claims that God's highest goal is to enter into a reciprocal relationship with man. In this scheme, the Bible is interpreted without any anthropomorphisms - that is, all references to God's feelings, surprise and lack of knowledge are literal and the result of His choice to create a world where He can be affected/changed by man's choices. God's exhaustive knowledge does not include knowledge of future free will choices by mankind because they have not yet occurred.

One of the leading spokesman of open theism, Clark Pinnock, in describing how libertarian freedom trumps God's omniscience says, "Decisions not yet made do not exist anywhere to be known even by God. They are potential--yet to be realized but not yet actual. God can predict a great deal of what we will choose to do, but not all of it, because some of it remains hidden in the mystery of human freedom ... The God of the Bible displays an openness to the future (i.e. ignorance of the future) that the traditional view of omniscience simply cannot accommodate." (Pinnock, "Augustine to Arminius, " 25-26) Evangelicals cannot remain neutral in response to this unbiblical view.

The overriding presuppositions which open theists bring to the text are (1) libertarian freewill theism ["causeless choice"] (But can a natural man believe the gospel independent of the Holy Spirit? -- If not, I challenge Open Theists to tell me why not?) ... and (2) the Socinian belief that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge of the future (i.e. that God is subject to part of his creation -"time"). Open Theists will also frequently point to biblical passages in which it is said that God changed his mind about something to prove his ignorance of future events. But usually it is the case that God is said to change His mind in sending judgment on people only after they repent of their sin. In Jeremiah 18:7-10 God simply shows that this type of relenting is a component of how He generally has decided to act:

• "If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it."

In other words, many prophesies of blessings and cursing are conditional. God has the authority to reverse his judgment at any time. depending on the response of those prophesied against. Such warnings have tacit conditions such as when Jonah declared that Ninevah would be destroyed, but judgment does not take place because they repented. Jonah knew that God would have mercy on them and this is one of the reasons he runs away from the task at first. The prophet is supposed to hold out God's covenant terms, blessing for obedience and cursing for disobedience. For more on this see Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions by Dr. Richard L. Pratt, Jr. (.pdf) (Very important article!)

Recommended book on Open Theism
No Other God by John Frame

 

[DivineNames]

Do you believe that God learns?
According to Open theism, God does not know the future free will choices of people, though He knows all possible choices they could make. Therefore, when people finally make those choices, God then learns what those choices are. Therefore, the God of open theism learns; that is, he learns what becomes the choices of his created beings.

If God is learning, then isn't He growing in understanding and gaining in knowledge?

God would certainly seem to be learning in a way. However, I can't see that the kind of "learning" involved is necessarily going to cause a problem to theism. Can you see this causing a problem?

Do you believe that God can make mistakes? For example, can God believe one thing will happen and it does not?

If God learns what people will do only after they have done it, then is it possible for God to expect someone to do one thing and yet he doesn't do it? Is it possible?

If yes, then you propose a god who makes mistakes and learns from his mistakes.

If God believes that someone will probably do X, and they actually do Y, this doesn't seem to necessarily involve a mistake. Even if they do Y, God would still have been correct, assuming that the probability calculation was accurate and Y were genuinely less likely.

Now if God were to believe that someone would certainly do X, and they actually do Y, then that looks like a mistake. But why would the God of "open theism" make that mistake?

To what extent a Deity could predict what free choice a person would make, I have no idea of course.

 

[Drew]

The overriding presuppositions which open theists bring to the text are (1) libertarian freewill theism ["causeless choice"] (But can a natural man believe the gospel independent of the Holy Spirit? -- If not, I challenge Open Theists to tell me why not?)

I do not know what others sympathetic to open theism might believe, but I see nothing in open theism about not needing the Holy Spirit in order to believe the gospel. I would say that the leading of the Spirit is a necessary, but not fully sufficient, condition for salvation - a freewill act of acceptance is also required.

 

[Drew]

"If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

If anything, this text supports open theism - note that it clearly states an intention to act in one way on the part of God - this implies that God's knowledge of the future must include knowledge of his expectation to act in that way. How can the future possibly be fully settled if Gods intentions to act are subject to change in this way?

 

[Solo]

"If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

If anything, this text supports open theism - note that it clearly states an intention to act in one way on the part of God - this implies that God's knowledge of the future must include knowledge of his expectation to act in that way. How can the future possibly be fully settled if Gods intentions to act are subject to change in this way?

God knows that in order for a proper reaction to his will, man must be guided and rebuked into compliance. God knows the outcome of each instance of action of man, but must assist in the manner specified in order for finite man to understand God's determination and will. If man allowed man to continue on his course without direction and guidence from God, man would destroy himself, but since God knows his ultimate will for all mankind, he is able to direct each individual in all circumstances with the required consequence and outcome. Simple.

 

[TanNinety]

God knows that in order for a proper reaction to his will, man must be guided and rebuked into compliance. God knows the outcome of each instance of action of man, but must assist in the manner specified in order for finite man to understand God's determination and will. If man allowed man to continue on his course without direction and guidence from God, man would destroy himself, but since God knows his ultimate will for all mankind, he is able to direct each individual in all circumstances with the required consequence and outcome. Simple.

I would say God according to your definition is doing a very poor job at running His creation, actually a very very bad job.

You say:
1. He rebukes us into compliance.
2. Directs each individual in all circumstances.

God could not rebuke angels into compliance. He could not rebuke hitler into compliance. God is love. So if only outcomes are according to God then the outcome of “angelic rebellion†didn’t go very well. Because according to your own definition most of the world is going to burn in lake of fire for eternity.

God having all the foreknowledge could do NOTHING for the billions of people who are going to burn because they couldn’t accept Jesus. Don’t tell me He died for our sins , but we need to choose Him because obviously He failed in rebuking everyone into compliance where they accept Jesus.

His mighty foreknowledge could only save a laughable amount of His creation from the lake of fire compared to the ones that are lost.

He “directing each individual in all circumstances†failed miserably when He couldn’t direct hitler to not commit those heinous acts.

I bet brother Cosmo could have done better given this infinite foreknowledge without having to send anyone to hell.

 

[Solo]

God knows that in order for a proper reaction to his will, man must be guided and rebuked into compliance. God knows the outcome of each instance of action of man, but must assist in the manner specified in order for finite man to understand God's determination and will. If man allowed man to continue on his course without direction and guidence from God, man would destroy himself, but since God knows his ultimate will for all mankind, he is able to direct each individual in all circumstances with the required consequence and outcome. Simple.

I would say God according to your definition is doing a very poor job at running His creation, actually a very very bad job.

You say:
1. He rebukes us into compliance.
2. Directs each individual in all circumstances.

God could not rebuke angels into compliance. He could not rebuke hitler into compliance. God is love. So if only outcomes are according to God then the outcome of “angelic rebellion†didn’t go very well. Because according to your own definition most of the world is going to burn in lake of fire for eternity.

God having all the foreknowledge could do NOTHING for the billions of people who are going to burn because they couldn’t accept Jesus. Don’t tell me He died for our sins , but we need to choose Him because obviously He failed in rebuking everyone into compliance where they accept Jesus.

His mighty foreknowledge could only save a laughable amount of His creation from the lake of fire compared to the ones that are lost.

He “directing each individual in all circumstances†failed miserably when He couldn’t direct hitler to not commit those heinous acts.

I bet brother Cosmo could have done better given this infinite foreknowledge without having to send anyone to hell.

Oh, don't be confused by the unbelieving and their final end. Also do not forget the war going on in the spiritual realm. God's plan continues just as he directed before the foundations of the world were created.

God doesn't MAKE all to obey. He presents them with the truth and they agree or reject it. God already knows their response. God will not have any unbelieving thing in eternity, nor will he be required to go through another six thousand years of this plan to reveal his personhood to the heavenlies. When another attempts to do as Lucifer did, God will just expel such a one into the place where satan, satan's angels, and all unbelievers are; the lake of fire.

 

[Guest]

I bet brother Cosmo could have done better given this infinite foreknowledge without having to send anyone to hell.

Not just me. Just about all rational people could easily think up hundreds, even thousands of other ways to go about doing this. Use your imagination!

Oh, don't be confused by the unbelieving and their final end.

What's my final end, Solo?

Also do not forget the war going on in the spiritual realm. God's plan continues just as he directed before the foundations of the world were created.

I might suggest that his plan is, as TanNinety pointed out, running exceptionally poorly.

God doesn't MAKE all to obey. He presents them with the truth and they agree or reject it.

Wrong. There are millions upon millions upon millions who either lived before your Jesus supposedly did or simply never heard of him.

God already knows their response.

Then why did he, as you said, even bother to "present them with the truth"?

God will not have any unbelieving thing in eternity

Millions of Christians would disagree with you.

, nor will he be required to go through another six thousand years of this plan to reveal his personhood to the heavenlies. When another attempts to do as Lucifer did, God will just expel such a one into the place where satan, satan's angels, and all unbelievers are; the lake of fire.

How can you claim to know the mind of your god? You seem awfully self-righteous; I'm fairly certain that is not an admirable quality according to your bible.

 

[Solo]

Oh, don't be confused by the unbelieving and their final end.

What's my final end, Solo?

It depends on whether you die as a child of God or a child of the devil.

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:17-21

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:7-10

Also do not forget the war going on in the spiritual realm. God's plan continues just as he directed before the foundations of the world were created.

I might suggest that his plan is, as TanNinety pointed out, running exceptionally poorly.

God's plan is going exactly as he has determined. It may not be what you or others like, but it is exactly what will bring righteousness into his creation for eternity.
The article God's Good News By Dr. Greg Bahnsen found at http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt047.htm shows what a great plan God has established from before the foundations of the world were created.

God doesn't MAKE all to obey. He presents them with the truth and they agree or reject it.

Wrong. There are millions upon millions upon millions who either lived before your Jesus supposedly did or simply never heard of him.

No one lived before God created them. Jesus is God, is eternal, and all things were made by him.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God already knows their response.

Then why did he, as you said, even bother to "present them with the truth"?

He gave each and every person an opportunity to accept or reject God's love. Darkness or Light.

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. John 8:12

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:18-20

God will not have any unbelieving thing in eternity

Millions of Christians would disagree with you.

If your comment is true as opposed to pulling a line out of the air, then they are probably not Christians but have aligned themselves with the label, Christian as I did when I was yet an unbeliever.

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

, nor will he be required to go through another six thousand years of this plan to reveal his personhood to the heavenlies. When another attempts to do as Lucifer did, God will just expel such a one into the place where satan, satan's angels, and all unbelievers are; the lake of fire.

How can you claim to know the mind of your god? You seem awfully self-righteous; I'm fairly certain that is not an admirable quality according to your bible.

Because I have the mind of Christ since being born of God. I am confident in Jesus Christ, and His truth is what I proclaim. Before being born of the Spirit of God, I was a natural man, and could not understand the the things of the Spirit of God for they were foolishness to me because the things of God are spiritually discerned.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:11-16

 

[Guest]

Let's first remove the bible spam - okay, done. Now we might see what you actually said:

What's my final end, Solo?

It depends on whether you die as a child of God or a child of the devil.

It is logically impossible for atheists or other non-christians to die in either of these manners.

God's plan is going exactly as he has determined. It may not be what you or others like, but it is exactly what will bring righteousness into his creation for eternity.

It's more than a simple dislike, Solo. Let's assume your god exists for a moment and is as described in the bible.

Think about an architect who you've hired to build you a house. You pay his fees and he returns to you, weeks later, with a blueprint for a proposed house design. In the blueprint, there are doors on the ceilings, ladders in the floor, and tables mounted to the walls. "What is this?", you'd complain. "Why have you so foolishly designed this house?" The architect would merely respond "No, you simply don't understand. Those features are all part of my greater plan for the house." Angry, you would reply, "I don't care about your plan. I know what I want in a house because I have experience living in houses. I have no use for your plan."

It is completely irrelevant what your god's plan may be. We, as humans, are living on this world - not your god. Every day, we see dozens and dozens - if not hundreds or thousands - of "faults" in your god's plan. Some of these faults are more severe than others, but each of them leads us to believe that your god really has no fracking idea how to run a planet.

The article God's Good News By Dr. Greg Bahnsen found at http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt047.htm shows what a great plan God has established from before the foundations of the world were created.

It also presents line after tired old line of bibble. I'll pass, thanks.

No one lived before God created them. Jesus is God, is eternal, and all things were made by him.

You, Solo, are clearly having issues with reading comprehension. I'll restate my point, and perhaps this time you'll try harder to answer it:

"There are millions upon millions upon millions who either lived before your Jesus supposedly did or simply never heard of him."

He gave each and every person an opportunity to accept or reject God's love. Darkness or Light.

Millions and millions and millions of people have lived and died without hearing a single word about your god. This is a fact. Therefore, you are, once again, quite simply wrong.

If your comment is true as opposed to pulling a line out of the air, then they are probably not Christians but have aligned themselves with the label, Christian as I did when I was yet an unbeliever.

Oh, you'd certainly know about "pulling a line out of the air", wouldn't you Solo?

Regardless, your logical fallacy in this section is No True Scotsman. Try again, thanks.

Because I have the mind of Christ since being born of God. I am confident in Jesus Christ, and His truth is what I proclaim. Before being born of the Spirit of God, I was a natural man, and could not understand the the things of the Spirit of God for they were foolishness to me because the things of God are spiritually discerned.

So you do claim to have the mind of Christ. I'm fairly certain that's heretical.

 

[Solo]

Let's first remove the bible spam - okay, done. Now we might see what you actually said:

You poor soul. Unable to comment on Bible verses, and calling God's Word spam. God's Word is part of my answer, and the most important part. This discussion has to be directed by you, or you are not god in your life. That is why you deleted the Bible verses and called them spam.
Since this is a Christian forum and not an atheist forum, I am adding the Bible verses back in for all to see my entire answers to your comments.

What's my final end, Solo?

It depends on whether you die as a child of God or a child of the devil.

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:17-21

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:7-10

It is logically impossible for atheists or other non-christians to die in either of these manners.

Your inability to admit error is not justification for the truth to be proclaimed logically impossible. Those who are believers are children of God, and those that are unbelievers are children of the devil.

God's plan is going exactly as he has determined. It may not be what you or others like, but it is exactly what will bring righteousness into his creation for eternity.

It's more than a simple dislike, Solo. Let's assume your god exists for a moment and is as described in the bible.

Think about an architect who you've hired to build you a house. You pay his fees and he returns to you, weeks later, with a blueprint for a proposed house design. In the blueprint, there are doors on the ceilings, ladders in the floor, and tables mounted to the walls. "What is this?", you'd complain. "Why have you so foolishly designed this house?" The architect would merely respond "No, you simply don't understand. Those features are all part of my greater plan for the house." Angry, you would reply, "I don't care about your plan. I know what I want in a house because I have experience living in houses. I have no use for your plan."

It is completely irrelevant what your god's plan may be. We, as humans, are living on this world - not your god. Every day, we see dozens and dozens - if not hundreds or thousands - of "faults" in your god's plan. Some of these faults are more severe than others, but each of them leads us to believe that your god really has no fracking idea how to run a planet.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Matthew 7:24-27

You build your own house on the foundation of your choice. It is your choice whether you build this house in a ridiculous manner as you suggest, or whether you build one that will last for eternity. If the foundation of your building is not Jesus Christ, then you are not a believer, and your building is going to be destroyed. Believers are a building in which God lives. They are the temple of the living God.

Jesus Christ is the foundation that believers build their house on. They must build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ in a wise manner, or suffer loss as described by Paul in his letter to the believers at Corinth.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's. 1 Corinthians 3:9-23

The article God's Good News By Dr. Greg Bahnsen found at http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt047.htm shows what a great plan God has established from before the foundations of the world were created.

It also presents line after tired old line of bibble. I'll pass, thanks.

Your choice. Ignorance is bliss until reality sets in. Then ignorance will give way to sorrow.

No one lived before God created them. Jesus is God, is eternal, and all things were made by him.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You, Solo, are clearly having issues with reading comprehension. I'll restate my point, and perhaps this time you'll try harder to answer it:

"There are millions upon millions upon millions who either lived before your Jesus supposedly did or simply never heard of him."

You have heard of Jesus and you reject him. You have never walked in another's shoes to know how God has dealt with them, so you comment suggesting that you know how millions and millions of people accepted or rejected God almighty is flawed. I know a Christian man that went from the US overseas to a country where few Christians reside. A man ran up to him and said that God had told him in a dream of his coming and that he would be able to teach him how to know God.

He gave each and every person an opportunity to accept or reject God's love. Darkness or Light.

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. John 8:12

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:18-20

Millions and millions and millions of people have lived and died without hearing a single word about your god. This is a fact. Therefore, you are, once again, quite simply wrong.

You only know your life's experience and no others. You have heard of Jesus Christ, and you have rejected him. You are an unbeliever condemned for eternity. You can not speak as to what millions of others have been shown by God, nor do you have any idea what their actions were.

God's Word says that no man has any excuse for this condemnation that we are all born into.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; 6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:16-20

If your comment is true as opposed to pulling a line out of the air, then they are probably not Christians but have aligned themselves with the label, Christian as I did when I was yet an unbeliever.

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

Oh, you'd certainly know about "pulling a line out of the air", wouldn't you Solo?

Regardless, your logical fallacy in this section is No True Scotsman. Try again, thanks.

What I have stated is perfectly clear relating to your habit of pulling numbers and non-facts from the air.

Because I have the mind of Christ since being born of God. I am confident in Jesus Christ, and His truth is what I proclaim. Before being born of the Spirit of God, I was a natural man, and could not understand the the things of the Spirit of God for they were foolishness to me because the things of God are spiritually discerned.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:11-16

So you do claim to have the mind of Christ. I'm fairly certain that's heretical.

How would an anti-Christian non-Biblical person such as yourself know anything being heretical. : :

 

[Judy]

I don't think he is going to answer you Solo. Elvis has left the building. :wink:

 

[TanNinety]

Again from 2 Kings 1

1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD,

3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him:

5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD.

I think this text is powerful evidence that God does indeed "change his plan" in response to human actions.

I am interested to know what argument an opponent of open theism would produce in order to allow for an interpretation of this passage that involves God knowing the future of Hezekiah as fully settled from the beginning of time.

An argument that contains the assertion "God knew all along that Hezekiah would live" seems to make Isaiah (or worse, God) a liar in verse 1 when Isaiah says "This is what the LORD says:..... you are going to die; you will not recover". The very fact of this statement would seem to be highly problematic - if God knew that He would allow Hezekiah to live, why would He intentionally misrepresent his intentions to Hezekiah? This smacks of "bearing false witness", presumably a claim that no one will be willing to make.

This discussion got scattered in all directions. Since this pulling in all directions has stopped above is an excellent post from Drew. Can we all discuss the above and not drag this around? Once the above has been reconciled "for or against" open theism then we can move on to other posts.

 

[DivineNames]

You only know your life's experience and no others. You have heard of Jesus Christ, and you have rejected him. You are an unbeliever condemned for eternity. You can not speak as to what millions of others have been shown by God, nor do you have any idea what their actions were.

What Cosmo is claiming, is that many people who have lived have never heard of Jesus. It seems like an obvious truth.

You can not speak as to what millions of others have been shown by God

Has God sent angels to everyone that is/was outside of the range of missionaries? To teach them the Bible? Something like that? If that is what you are trying, it is clearly an "ad hoc hypothesis" and it isn't a sensible response.

 

[DivineNames]

God's Word says that no man has any excuse for this condemnation that we are all born into.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; 6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:16-20

I recently said-

(18) The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, (19) since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (20) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. (Romans 1:18-23)


Doesn't this actually suggest that non-Christians can be saved? What it claims, is that everyone has been given a kind of revelation, and so men are, "without excuse". This kind of revelation must presumably be enough to enable someone to respond and turn to God. Obviously some haven't responded, and are going to be punished, but many non-Christians may respond to this form of revelation.

 

[JM]

DN, you're not a believer and therefore cannot be expected to understand the scriptures.

 

[Drew]

I thank TanNinety for his / her kind words. I agree with him / her that it might be helpful to understand how opponents of open theism view 2 King 20, verses 1 to 5:

1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD,

3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him:

5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD.

Can opponents of open theism please give an account that deals with this text.

Solo has argued that man needs to be guided, directed, and rebuked by God, and I agree with this. However, I think this argument does not touch the challenge of explaining why God is specifically represented as changing his mind in the above text. God would direct and guide man without changing his (God's) mind - yet the text says that He does change his mind (at least on a literal reading).

I can at least provisionally accept that the text might not mean exactly what it says. However, we need to hear an account of how representing God as changing his mind is supposed to be taken "some other way". What is that other meaning? Exactly why should we not take it "as it reads"?