Open Theism

[DivineNames]

DN, you're not a believer and therefore cannot be expected to understand the scriptures.

Your entitled to your opinion. In my opinion, someone like yourself, your dogma may well be influencing your reading of the Bible. So that may prevent you from understanding scripture.

 

[DivineNames]

yet the text says that He does change his mind (at least on a literal reading).

I guess Solo doesn't believe that the Bible is literally true.

 

[Solo]

God deals with man within the boundries of created time, space, and matter. God exists beyond time and is present yesterday, today, and tomorrow simultaneously. This principle of truth is not understandable by the finite human mind; it can only be concluded upon by faith. Man's science can not enter into the spiritual realm, nor can God be pleased apart from faith.

When God deals with Hezekiah, he does so not because he changed his mind because he didn't know the outcome; but on the contrary, God knew the entire consequence of Hezekiah's actions before, during, and after God told him that he was dying and to set his house in order. Was Hezekiah dying? Yes Did God know that Hezekiah was dying? Yes Did God know that Hezekiah would pray to live longer? Yes. Did God know that he was going to heal Hezekiah? Yes. Why did God have Hezekiah that he was ill and dying if he knew that he was going to heal him? Because Hezekiah was dying and had not asked to be healed yet. Did Hezekiah know any of this? No. Did any of the Heavenly Host know? No. Did satan and his angels know? No.

 

[Drew]

If God knew the entire sequence, then the following statement He makes though Isaiah is factually incorrect:

"This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

I understand how one might argue that there might be a plan behind this - God might have been trying to get Hezekiah to turn to Him. But it is still a falsehood - an untrue statement, since God (according to Solo's argument) knew all along that He was going to allow Hezekiah to live.

I can see only one way out of this for the opponent of open theism - to argue God sometimes misrepresents his intentions in the pursuit of a higher goal. I am not yet willing to go there.

 

[Solo]

If God knew the entire sequence, then the following statement He makes though Isaiah is factually incorrect:

"This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

I understand how one might argue that there might be a plan behind this - God might have been trying to get Hezekiah to turn to Him. But it is still a falsehood - an untrue statement, since God (according to Solo's argument) knew all along that He was going to allow Hezekiah to live.

I can see only one way out of this for the opponent of open theism - to argue God sometimes misrepresents his intentions in the pursuit of a higher goal. I am not yet willing to go there.

When you review God in the light of human understanding from a natural construct apart from God's understanding from a spiritual construct, you can come up with diverse interpretations from here to tomorrow, but God's interpretation within the realm of dealing with mankind is far outside of man's understanding; therefore faith is the means by which to please God, not finite natural man illusions. When God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he was dying, that fact is true. He was dying until he asked God to heal him which occurred after Isaiah's prophetic information. After Hezekiah asked for a healing, then God healed him and he did not die. There is no falsehood spoken.

A falsehood would have been that Hezekiah was not dying, and then Isaiah spoke to him saying that he was, in order for Hezekiah to ask for a healing so that he wouldn't die even though he wasn't dying.
That is a falsehood.

God knows all simultaneously in our past, present, and future. God is unchanging.

 

[Drew]

He was dying until he asked God to heal him which occurred after Isaiah's prophetic information. After Hezekiah asked for a healing, then God healed him and he did not die. There is no falsehood spoken.

This argument is not true to the text. Isaiah quotes the Lord as saying "you will not recover". You need to address this statement. Of course, we all agree that Hezekiah was dying until he asked God for a healing. The key issue is the truthfulness of the clear, unqualified statement "you will not recover". This is a clear statement about Hezekiah's future. It is either a true statement about Hezekiah's future or a false one. If God knew that he was planning to heal Hezekiah (as Solo claims) then the statement "you will not recover" is simply untrue.

Who among you will claim that God's statement "you will not recover" is a true statement about Hezekiah's future?

 

[Solo]

He was dying until he asked God to heal him which occurred after Isaiah's prophetic information. After Hezekiah asked for a healing, then God healed him and he did not die. There is no falsehood spoken.

This argument is not true to the text. Isaiah quotes the Lord as saying "you will not recover". You need to address this statement. Of course, we all agree that Hezekiah was dying until he asked God for a healing. The key issue is the truthfulness of the clear, unqualified statement "you will not recover". This is a clear statement about Hezekiah's future. It is either a true statement about Hezekiah's future or a false one. If God knew that he was planning to heal Hezekiah (as Solo claims) then the statement "you will not recover" is simply untrue.

Who among you will claim that God's statement "you will not recover" is a true statement about Hezekiah's future?

I know it takes quite a bit to teach one that is dead set against being taught, but the truth is that Hezekiah was going to die from an illness, and that this illness was one that he would not recover from. Unless God miraculously healed him, he was set to die just exactly how God had told him. After Hezekiah prayed to be healed, God healed him, otherwise he would have died just as God said.

Read this very carefully: Hezekiah would not have recovered from his illness. God healed him of his illness, therefore, Hezekiah had nothing to recover from. Hezekiah did not recover from his illness, God healed Hezekiah from his illness so that Hezekiah had nothing to recover from.

 

[Drew]

Read this very carefully: Hezekiah would not have recovered from his illness. God healed him of his illness, therefore, Hezekiah had nothing to recover from. Hezekiah did not recover from his illness, God healed Hezekiah from his illness so that Hezekiah had nothing to recover from.

I think this material abuses the notion of what it means to recover. Solo is in a position where He needs to argue that God's statement "you will not recover" is factually correct. That's fine and his attempt is clever, although I think incorrect. It appears that Solo is effectively saying that God's healing of Hez did not constitute a recovery by Hez. If this is a legitimate interpretation, then God is not telling a falsehood when He says "you will not recover". Why? Because Hez indeed does not "recover", he is healed (instead of recovering). By claiming that Hez' return to health is not a recovery, but instead a healing, the truthfulness of the "you will not recover" statement is preserved.

The entire argument hinges on the assertion that Hez' return to health was not a recovery. Solo might have a point here if it were true that "to recover" had the very specific meaning of "getting better by natural means" or something similar. Solo needs to have it be the case that a healing does not necessitate a recovery. I think that a healing does indeed necessitate a recovery. To be healed necessarily implies recovery. So I think the argument, while a clever one, does not really work.

 

[gingercat]

JM, I would like to ask you a simple question if you dont mind.

Are you saying that we don't have a choice in becoming a believer? God has already decided who is going into His kingdom and before we decide?

thank you

 

[Solo]

Read this very carefully: Hezekiah would not have recovered from his illness. God healed him of his illness, therefore, Hezekiah had nothing to recover from. Hezekiah did not recover from his illness, God healed Hezekiah from his illness so that Hezekiah had nothing to recover from.

I think this material abuses the notion of what it means to recover. Solo is in a position where He needs to argue that God's statement "you will not recover" is factually correct. That's fine and his attempt is clever, although I think incorrect. It appears that Solo is effectively saying that God's healing of Hez did not constitute a recovery by Hez. If this is a legitimate interpretation, then God is not telling a falsehood when He says "you will not recover". Why? Because Hez indeed does not "recover", he is healed (instead of recovering). By claiming that Hez' return to health is not a recovery, but instead a healing, the truthfulness of the "you will not recover" statement is preserved.

The entire argument hinges on the assertion that Hez' return to health was not a recovery. Solo might have a point here if it were true that "to recover" had the very specific meaning of "getting better by natural means" or something similar. Solo needs to have it be the case that a healing does not necessitate a recovery. I think that a healing does indeed necessitate a recovery. To be healed necessarily implies recovery. So I think the argument, while a clever one, does not really work.

Drew would be required to accept that the doctrine of Open Theism was false and heretical if he accepted that God knows the past, present, and future. This explanation of Hezekiah's healing from an illness that guaranteed his death is a simple explanation of the verses of scripture that was submitted. Open Theism is a false teaching. It is a heresy to say that God does not know all things. God knew that Hezekiah would not recover from the illness, but that he would live if God healed him.

In man's time, with the circumstances in Hezekiah's illness, he was not going to recover. He instead was going to die. God told Hezekiah that he was going to die and not recover from his illness. At that time Hezekiah was to die from his illness. Until Hezekiah asked for a healing, a healing was not going to take place, therefore Hezekiah was going to die. When Hezekiah prayed to God for a healing from an illness of which he was dying from, the events of Hezekiah's death changed because God healed his illness. Hezekiah did not recover from the illness, because the illness was no longer present after God removed it. God removed the penalty of the illness by removing the illness in the same manner that he removed the penalty of our sins by removing the sin.

 

[TanNinety]

At that time Hezekiah was to die from his illness.

Not true. At that time according to Gods foreknowledge hezekiah would pray for his healing and hence he would recover.

Until Hezekiah asked for a healing, a healing was not going to take place

Gods foreknowledge is never wrong ..so hezekiah’s prayer was certain ..his healing was certain. So there was no chance of him not being healed.

therefore Hezekiah was going to die.

Not according to Gods foreknowledge.

When Hezekiah prayed to God for a healing from an illness of which he was dying from, the events of Hezekiah's death changed because God healed his illness.

The events changed???? May be according to you ..but not according to God. Events went like God foreknew they would. So God could not have said “you are not going to recoverâ€Â, He exactly knew hezekiah would pray and recover.

It is wrong for God in His foreknowledge knowing the certainty of the foreknown events to declare something as blatantly as “you are not going to recover†when His foreknowledge tells Him different.

Stop bringing God into mans time and try to explain away these events. Lets discuss this in the level of where God transcends time.

Healing, Recovery ..the word play is unnecessary. Recovery is the process of healing ..God healed and hezekiah recovered. I don’t think you can play the game of he didn’t recover but God healed. There is NO recovery without healing.

 

[Drew]

The events changed???? May be according to you ..but not according to God. Events went like God foreknew they would. So God could not have said “you are not going to recoverâ€Â, He exactly knew hezekiah would pray and recover.

It is wrong for God in His foreknowledge knowing the certainty of the foreknown events to declare something as blatantly as “you are not going to recover†when His foreknowledge tells Him different.

Stop bringing God into mans time and try to explain away these events. Lets discuss this in the level of where God transcends time.

Healing, Recovery ..the word play is unnecessary. Recovery is the process of healing ..God healed and hezekiah recovered. I don’t think you can play the game of he didn’t recover but God healed. There is NO recovery without healing.

I am with you in practically all of this. It is, if course, incorrect for someone who believes that God knows the future completely to then make a statement like "At that time Hezekiah was to die from his illness" and then go on to say that Hez future is changed as a result of his prayer. Solo is trying to have an open future (as evidenced by the obvious openness of this statement) and a fully settled one at the same time.

If the future is fully known to God, then God simply must know the truth about Hez's future - whether he will recover or not. If a God who knows the future fully says Hez "will not recover", then Hez simply cannot be allowed to recover without making God's statement a falsehood.

This is why I am confused by your (TanNinety's) statement: "So God could not have said “you are not going to recoverâ€Â. Here is the relevant text from the NIV:

"In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover."

Isn't God clearly stating that Hez would not recover from his illness?

 

[TanNinety]

This is why I am confused by your (TanNinety's) statement: "So God could not have said “you are not going to recoverâ€Â.

What I meant Drew, was that if God foreknew hez's prayer, healing and recovery God could not have said "you are not going to recover", that would be prophesying against His foreknowledge which is nothing other than bearing false witness and withholding the truth of hez's recovery. But indeed He said "you are not going to recover" showing that His foreknowledge was not in action when He prophesied that. Unless the closed theist bind God in mans time they cannot explain away these events as obvious from Solo's posts or hinting an open future "at that time he was going to die but....". It is either the future is settled according to Gods foreknowledge or it is open apart from Gods grand prophesies ..they seem to be floor crossing this open and closedness of Gods foreknowledge according to their whimsy to explain this away.

Another overlooked stab at this issue: If God knew and God knew the certainity of His foreknowledge and prophesied "you will not recover" to hez, and if hez thought that Gods foreknowledge was final why in the heck did he pray to God to heal him? ..Did hez believe that the future was open and there was a chance of his recovery against the prophesy of Gods word being "you will not recover"? What was hez believing? Wouldnt that make hez sympathising open theism if he thought there was ANOTHER outcome to the prophesy of his CERTAIN death by God? Was hez being a heretic like the rest of us?

 

[Solo]

Hezekiah was dying from an illness and was not going to recover from it.
Hezekiah prayed for a healing and God removed the illness.
Hezekiah did not recover from the illness because the illness was removed.
Until Hezekiah prayed for God's healing, he was dying from an unrecoverable illness.
Simple, but against those who are following the heresy of Open Theism, and this is the one verse of scripture that they lay their entire set of beliefs upon.
You open theists can continue to walk with your eyes closed to the truth. Good bye.

 

[TanNinety]

Hezekiah was dying from an illness and was not going to recover from it.

Stop twisting the premise of the argument. Nobody asked for your opinion in the matter. We are discussing Gods foreknowledge here. ACCORDING TO GODS FOREKNOWLEDGE, hezekiah was never going to die of the illness he had. He was going to pray to God and recover from it. What you think of hezekiahs future is irrelevant. Or are you saying that according to Gods foreknowledge at this point that hezekiah was certainly going to die which makes Gods foreknowlege faulty?

We are not asking if hezekiah was "in the process of dieing" or not. Our question is God knew his death was not coming because hezekiah would pray for healing ..even then God prophesied against this foreknowledge and said "you will not recover". Do whatever dance around this you want, but you never answered this question.

Hezekiah prayed for a healing and God removed the illness.

Hezekiah did not recover from the illness because the illness was removed.

"The next statement is true. My previous statement is false"
Does this make sense to you?

God removed hezekiah's illness but hezekiah did not recover because the illness was removed? So the illness was removed but hezekiah instead of recovering just sat around the house coughing and carrying on even without the illness? Recovery = removal of illness. Having our eyes closed? ..open your eyes.

Your refutation makes as much sense as "I dont have to breathe to live ..I just inhale and exhale air"

Until Hezekiah prayed for God's healing, he was dying from an unrecoverable illness.

Again, I dont want your story of what was going to happen to hezekiah, you are not the one with the foreknowledge here and you did not send isiah to prophesy to hezekiah. God knew hezekiah was NOT going to die. PERIOD. No matter how many languages you say that in, its the same. But God prophesied contrary to hezekiah, that is the question.

Simple, but against those who are following the heresy of Open Theism

Keep your heresy card to yourself and stick to the topic.

You open theists can continue to walk with your eyes closed to the truth. Good bye.

Neither Drew nor I so far have claimed to be open theists.
You agree with the trinity so does that make you catholic?

 

[Solo]

Hezekiah was dying from an illness and was not going to recover from it.

Stop twisting the premise of the argument. Nobody asked for your opinion in the matter. We are discussing Gods foreknowledge here. ACCORDING TO GODS FOREKNOWLEDGE, hezekiah was never going to die of the illness he had. He was going to pray to God and recover from it. What you think of hezekiahs future is irrelevant. Or are you saying that according to Gods foreknowledge at this point that hezekiah was certainly going to die which makes Gods foreknowlege faulty?

We are not asking if hezekiah was "in the process of dieing" or not. Our question is God knew his death was not coming because hezekiah would pray for healing ..even then God prophesied against this foreknowledge and said "you will not recover". Do whatever dance around this you want, but you never answered this question.

[quote:0efdf]Hezekiah prayed for a healing and God removed the illness.

Hezekiah did not recover from the illness because the illness was removed.

"The next statement is true. My previous statement is false"
Does this make sense to you?

God removed hezekiah's illness but hezekiah did not recover because the illness was removed? So the illness was removed but hezekiah instead of recovering just sat around the house coughing and carrying on even without the illness? Recovery = removal of illness. Having our eyes closed? ..open your eyes.

Your refutation makes as much sense as "I dont have to breathe to live ..I just inhale and exhale air"

Until Hezekiah prayed for God's healing, he was dying from an unrecoverable illness.

Again, I dont want your story of what was going to happen to hezekiah, you are not the one with the foreknowledge here and you did not send isiah to prophesy to hezekiah. God knew hezekiah was NOT going to die. PERIOD. No matter how many languages you say that in, its the same. But God prophesied contrary to hezekiah, that is the question.

Simple, but against those who are following the heresy of Open Theism

Keep your heresy card to yourself and stick to the topic.

You open theists can continue to walk with your eyes closed to the truth. Good bye.

Neither Drew nor I so far have claimed to be open theists.
You agree with the trinity so does that make you catholic?[/quote:0efdf]
Hezekiah was dying from an illness and was not going to recover from it.
Hezekiah prayed for a healing and God removed the illness.
Hezekiah did not recover from the illness because the illness was removed.
Until Hezekiah prayed for God's healing, he was dying from an unrecoverable illness.
Simple, but against those who are following the heresy of Open Theism, and this is the one verse of scripture that they lay their entire set of beliefs upon.
You open theists can continue to walk with your eyes closed to the truth. Good bye.

 

[Drew]

Your refutation makes as much sense as "I dont have to breathe to live ..I just inhale and exhale air"

Precisely. To suggest that Hezekiah's return to health did not constitute "recovery" is to ignore what the word recovery means.

 

[Drew]

Consider Jeremiah 26:1-3 (NIV)

"Early in the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came from the LORD : 2 "This is what the LORD says: Stand in the courtyard of the LORD's house and speak to all the people of the towns of Judah who come to worship in the house of the LORD. Tell them everything I command you; do not omit a word. 3 Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way. Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done."

I think it is fairly self-evident that God cannot fully know the future and yet engage in a plan whose implementation is contingent upon the actions of the people. Presumably the "closed theist" has to claim that God knows whether or not he will bring the disaster in question. Let's consider the only 2 possibilities:

1. God knows that there will indeed be a disaster: In this case it is not truthful for God to suggest the possibility of an escape for the people. If he knows that there will be a disaster with absolute certainty, his offer of the possibility of escape is a false offer - there is no way out.

2. God knows that there will not be a disaster: In this case, we have a situation where God is planning to do something that he knows he will never do. This seems patently contradictory. Why would God work on a plan that he knows will never be implemented?

 

[Solo]

Your refutation makes as much sense as "I dont have to breathe to live ..I just inhale and exhale air"

Precisely. To suggest that Hezekiah's return to health did not constitute "recovery" is to ignore what the word recovery means.

You lack of knowledge concerning God and his omnicience doesn't surprise me, nor does your inability to understand the difference between recovery from an illness and being healed of an illness; two entirely different meanings. Hezekiah did not recover from his illness, he was healed from his illness.

If Hezekiah was not going to die from his illness, then God did not have to heal him. What part of this simple explanation do you not understand?

 

[TanNinety]

You lack of knowledge concerning God and his omnicience doesn't surprise me, nor does your inability to understand the difference between recovery from an illness and being healed of an illness;

Garbage! Please read.

2Kings 20:7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid [it] on the boil, and he recovered.

Hezekiah recovered. Is it hard to believe the bible when it does not say what you want it to say?