Ordering the Soteriological Elements

[JM]

Just wondering...what group do you fit into?

Supralapsarianism
1. Elect some, reprobate rest
2. Create
3. Permit Fall
4. Provide salvation for elect
5. Call elect to salvation

Infralapsarianism
1. Create
2. Permit Fall
3. Elect some, pass over the rest
4. Provide salvation for elect
5. Call elect to salvation

Amyraldism
1. Create
2. Permit Fall
3. Provide salvation sufficient for all
4. Elect some, pass over rest
5. Call elect to salvation

Arminianism
1. Create
2. Permit Fall
3. Provide salvation for all
4. Call all to salvation
5. Elect those who believe

For more details see link below:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/sup_infr.htm

 

[unred typo]

SUPRALAPSARIANISM is the view that God, contemplating man as yet unfallen, chose some to receive eternal life and rejected all others. So a supralapsarian would say that the reprobate (non-elect)â€â€vessels of wrath fitted for destruction (Rom. 9:22)â€â€were first ordained to that role, and then the means by which they fell into sin was ordained. In other words, supralapsarianism suggests that God's decree of election logically preceded His decree to permit Adam's fallâ€â€so that their damnation is first of all an act of divine sovereignty, and only secondarily an act of divine justice. In that sense of the term, all genuine Calvinists hold to "double predestination"â€â€and the fact that the destiny of the reprobate is eternally settled is clearly a biblical doctrine (cf. 1 Peter 2:8; Romans 9:22; Jude 4).

Guess what, JM. I’m NOT this one. Their ‘clearly’ biblical doctrine is clearly wrong. They have read into all of these verses what is blindly imagined to fit their preconceived opinions:

1 Peter 2:7-8 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The disobedient are appointed to stumble at the rock of offence because of their willful defiance. They hate to obey God, and despise the teaching of Christ, so they invent their own doctrines out of the word that disallow his way of salvation. God allows them to follow their own ways to destruction.


Romans 9:22 The ‘vessels of wrath’ are men God would have destroyed before for their evil works but because he wanted to use them for his purpose, he allowed them to live past the normal time of chastisement and holds back his wrath so that he can use them to do something evil they are suited for. An example of this is given in the text. Pharaoh was an evil man whom God might have destroyed sooner in his life but instead, God endured this insufferable tyrant so that he could have a man so arrogant he would withstand the display of terrifying power shown him, and still not let the people go. God wanted to punish the Egyptians for their cruelty to his people and the generation of infant boys that they had killed, and to warn the nations around them not to mess with Israel. He used the stubbornness of Pharaoh to pour out all the plagues on the Egyptians that they had earned for themselves.


Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who were these men that were ordained to condemnation from way back when Enoch prophesied about them? Ungodly men. No names, not specific men chosen to be unredeemed, but any person who chooses to be ungodly, throughout all generations right up until the last days. If you are ungodly, God ordained you to be condemned. Be convinced of your sin, repent and be forgiven! Read on:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

SUPRALAPSARIANISM…LOL. How patently supercilious! [Early 16th century. From Latin superciliosus , from supercilium “eyebrow,†from super “above†+ cilium “eyelid,†referring to raised eyebrows as a sign of haughty disdain.]
:wink:

I'm still working on the other three. :-D

 

[unred typo]

Since there is no other scripture to distinguish the other views, I can’t see any difference except in the order of events. Bottom line, there is only one that makes logical sense if we‘re just going by logic here:
Supralapsarianism
1. Elect some, reprobate rest when he could have elected all, but chose not to
2. Create
3. Permit Fall
4. Provide salvation for elect
5. Call elect to salvation
6. God’s fault that not all are saved

Infralapsarianism
1. Create
2. Permit Fall
3. Elect some, pass over the rest when he could have elected all, but chose not to
4. Provide salvation for elect
5. Call elect to salvation
6. God’s fault that not all are saved

Amyraldism
1. Create
2. Permit Fall
3. Provide salvation sufficient for all
4. Elect some, pass over rest when he could have elected all, but chose not to
5. Call elect to salvation
6. God’s fault that not all are saved

Arminianism
1. Create
2. Permit Fall
3. Provide salvation for all
4. Call all to salvation
5. Elect those who believe when all could have chosen to believe so they are without excuse
6. Man’s fault if he is not saved

Of course, there is so little written about the latter view, one wonders if the author might be a tad bit biased. There isn’t enough information on the last one to make an intelligent choice. I only know that I’m none of the above but thanks for asking.
:-D

 

[xicali]

Definitely not Arminianism nor Amyraldism. Not quite Infralapsarianism but relate some what with Infralapsarianism and Supralapsarianism.

For me would be more like...

1. Pre-existence
2. The Fall up to His passion
(preparing a door for me)
3. Christ Gate (The Cross)
4. Works prepared beforehand ( I came in through No. 3)
5. Glorified Body

Awaiting for No. 5 as I live on No. 4

 

[xicali]

I only know that I’m none of the above but thanks for asking.
:-D

Just wondering...what group do you fit into?

That was the original question of JM.
and ... I'm kindda curious too LOL.

 

[Vic C.]

Those who acknowledge the divine decree, however, must end up making election contingent upon the believer's response to the call of the gospel. Indeed, this is the whole gist of Arminianism.

Yes, that make sense to me. 8-) However, I am still studying all of this... big time and me head is spinning. lol Therefore, I am not inclined to debate this right now without some bias.


A little bit of expounding on the Arminian position.

(1) Though born a sinner, mankind is given a spark of divine grace that enables him to respond positively to God.
(2) God does not arbitrarily consign some people to eternal damnation; their willful rejection of God's salvation makes them responsible.
(3) Christ died for every person, even though some refuse to accept the provision for their salvation.
(4) No person is forced against his or her will to become a Christian
(5) One's salvation can be lost through willful disobedience.

#1 would have be defined or altered for me to fully agree with it.

I don't believe in the total depravity of Man. That would contradict the fact that we were created in HIS image. Though I do believe we inherited a sinful nature.

#5 is a no-no!

Are desire and will the same thing? I tend not to think that way concerning God and the Bible. In other words, I do believe God desires all to be saved, but HE doesn't will all... that would be UR! I believe that if there is election, it is based in part on God's foreknowledge. I believe HE has foreknowledge of both the saved and unsaved. Some say HE has no foreknowledge of the unsaved based on:

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

but that would mean that God is not omniscient.

 

[Dave...]

I'll get back.

 

[unred typo]

Just wondering...what group do you fit into?

That was the original question of JM.
and ... I'm kindda curious too LOL.

I’m not much of a group follower. I follow Christ and I’ll walk beside those who follow him too. These labels just cause people to look at each other instead of Christ. People who followed Christ were first called people of the way, meaning the way he taught to live; i.e. love one another, repent when you sin, forgive as you have been forgiven, turn the other cheek, love mercy, not just for yourselves but for everyone, being humble, knowing that you, too, could sin and fall, be generous with what you have, look for treasure in heaven, not on earth, don‘t hurt others by your lusts and greediness, etc. Basically, love for God and fellow man and repentance from sin (which is not loving God and fellowman).

It’s just too simple for those who love those supercilious big words. :wink:

 

[Solo]

I have never studied the various catagories of beliefs of these groups, nor have I decided that each is clearly enough defined to choose one as a dogmatic position.

Surprisingly, I have chosen Arminianism as the closest to my understanding of God's dealings with mankind.

The points given for Arminianism are:

1. Create
2. Permit Fall
3. Provide salvation for all
4. Call all to salvation
5. Elect those who believe.

1. Create - God created man for HIS purpose:
I believe that God created man in His image, and I believe that this image was the basic makeup with mind, will, emotion, body, and spirit. I believe that God created the physical realm in which we live over the chaos where Lucifer fell to. Lucifer was created with a will to obey God as two-thirds of the heavenly host, but he refused. He instead wanted his throne equal to or above God's. Before the foundations of the world, Jesus Christ was going to be the propitiation for mankind's sin. This was a fact before the worlds were created. The reason? God was going to create out of a ball of mud, a creature that would be a JOINT HEIR with HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST; a place that Lucifer unrighteously coveted.

2. Permit Fall - God knew that man would fall having the will to fall:
I believe that God knew that satan would deceive and lie to tempt man to trangress against God, causing man to miss the mark of God's righteousness (sin). God had already established a way out, a light in the darkness, life to replace the death that sin brought upon man.

3. Provide salvation for all - God provided Jesus Christ to shed His blood for the sins of the world:
God is willing that all mankind come to be saved as HE gave HIS only begotten son Jesus Christ so that WHOSOEVER BELIEVED in him would not perish but gain eternal life.

"For God so loved HIS CREATION that HE GAVE his ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever BELIEVETH in HIM, SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have EVERLASTING LIFE." John 3:16

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:3-6

4. Call all to salvation - Does God call all to be saved?:
Psalm 49 says much about the call of God on mankind. God proclaims in this Psalm for all the people to give ear, all of the inhabitants of the world; whether low or high, rich or poor for His mouth shall speak wisdom. Those who are chosen are those who harken His call, and do not trust in their own riches or their own way of life.

1 Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world: 2 Both low and high, rich and poor, together. 3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding. 4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp. 5 Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about? 6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; 7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: 8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever 9 That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption. 10 For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others. Psalm 49:1-10

14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:14

5. Elect those who believe - Those who are called and believe on the name of Jesus Christ are saved:

Since we are talking post-ascension of Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of Jesus is available for those who hear the word of God, then those that hear and believe will be saved. The many examples in the Book of Acts confirms this as well as the Gospels. Does God force individual to believe? Since God did not create the angels to obey as robots, I do not believe that God forces mankind to believe. I believe that God draws each believer to himself through Jesus Christ by the actions of the Holy Spirit. Those that do not come to God through Jesus Christ after having the light shine through the Holy Spirit refuse to come to the light. They reject the word of God. Many examples of this exist in the Book of Acts as well.

ConclusionThese statements declare my understanding at this time, and if I am incorrect in these areas, I have confidence that the Holy Spirit will correct me as I continue to pray and meditate upon His word. The Arminians believe that one can lose their salvation. I do not hold to this belief as I believe that once I became born of God, born again, I was sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, and that I my flesh has been crucified in Christ Jesus as he gave His sinfree flesh for me. It may be apparant in the future that I disagree further with Arminianism, but with the choices that I was given in the OP, these are my beliefs.

PS. I am a post-tribulation, pre-wrath believer who has never been a pre-tribulationist.

 

[RJS]

I hold to supralapsarianism.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

 

[unred typo]

I hold to supralapsarianism.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

You are ignoring what this ‘election’ is all about. The election here is about who is going to be the forerunner of the coming Messiah. Only one boy will be chosen for the honor. This has nothing to do with salvation, with Gentiles nor with believers. Paul is talking about the genealogy of Christ and the election of one brother over the other in the line to Jesus. Election is for special privileges, not the general call to salvation. Many are called but few are chosen.

Election is not always for honors, either, as Judas and Pharaoh can testify. These were chosen to be the villain, and even then, it was not about salvation. Judas could have repented after his betrayal, just as Peter did. Pharaoh could have repented and let the people go after the death of his firstborn, and saved his army from drowning. They had both fulfilled their purposes at that point.

.

 

[unred typo]

Wow 2 votes, JM. And you thought you had the bases covered. Labels not sticking to anyone’s forehead? Not surprising. Labels are for paper, not people.
Here’s your chance to cast the winning vote. I wonder if you can break the tie….
:-D

 

[JM]

Wow 2 votes, JM. And you thought you had the bases covered. Labels not sticking to anyone’s forehead? Not surprising. Labels are for paper, not people.
Here’s your chance to cast the winning vote. I wonder if you can break the tie….
:-D

Actually, it’s really sad we have only 2 votes, the poll is based upon the accepted historical orthodox Christian positions held by the Church. The idea that “labels†do not exist for your theological position is insincere.

A couple of reasons for not voting exist:

1/ you don’t know what you believe and are working thru it [God be with you],

2/ you deny the label but still fit the description [in which case you’re not being honest],

3/ you haven’t studied and thought about what you believe [study to shew thyself approved] or

4/ you can’t vote because you deny the historically accepted positions of the Christian Church and in which case you’re either a heretic or extremely confused.

Maybe we should create a poll for these four groups?

~JM~

 

[unred typo]

JM: “The idea that “labels†do not exist for your theological position is insincere.â€Â

The idea that you can define every person’s beliefs in 4 selections, 3 of which are Calvinist based, is quite presumptuous.

 

[RJS]

This has nothing to do with salvation, with Gentiles nor with believers. Paul is talking about the genealogy of Christ and the election of one brother over the other in the line to Jesus.

So Romans 1-8 is about salvation and Romans 10-16 are about salvation but Roamsn 9 is not. Pull the other one mate.

 

[JM]

I hold to supralapsarianism.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

"Chosen in Him before the fundation of the World," makes sense. RJS, have you did any reading on Amyraldism? It's such a seductive theological view point.

While Amyraldism is sometimes called four point Calvinism due to its rejection of the doctrine of a limited atonement, the latter term is often a self-proclaimed title for many who are even less consistent Calvinists than Amyraut, often referred to as "crypto-Arminians". For instance, many so-called "four point Calvinists" (particularly the dispensational variety) not only reject the doctrine of limited atonement but also deny that regeneration must logically precede faith (a tenet of Calvinism which Amyraut upheld).

John Davenant (1576-1641), like Amyraut a student of John Cameron, was an English delegate at the Synod of Dort and influenced some of the members of the Westminster Assembly. He promoted "hypothetical universalism, a general atonement in the sense of intention as well as sufficiency, a common blessing of the cross, and a conditional salvation. The "root principle of the Davenant School" was the "notion of a universal desire in God for the salvation of all men." [4] In the floor debate on redemption at the Westminster Assembly, Edmund Calamy the Elder of the Davenant School attempted to insert Amyraldism into the Catechism.

http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_ar ... strong.htm
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/amyraldi.htm
http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWor ... salism.htm

Audio Lectures on Amyraldism: http://theologicalmeditations.blogspot. ... ldism.html

~JM~

 

[RJS]

have you did any reading on Amyraldism? It's such a seductive theological view point.

I have and I know a number of people who hold it unfortunately.

 

[unred typo]

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

You are ignoring what this ‘election’ is all about. The election here is about who is going to be the forerunner of the coming Messiah. Only one boy will be chosen for the honor. This has nothing to do with salvation, with Gentiles nor with believers. Paul is talking about the genealogy of Christ and the election of one brother over the other in the line to Jesus. Election is for special privileges, not the general call to salvation. Many are called but few are chosen. Election is not always for honors, as Judas and Pharaoh can testify. These were chosen to be the villain, and even then, it was not about salvation. Judas could have repented after his betrayal, just as Peter did. Pharaoh could have repented and let the people go after the death of his firstborn, and saved his army from drowning. They had both fulfilled their purposes at that point.

So Romans 1-8 is about salvation and Romans 10-16 are about salvation but Roamsn 9 is not. Pull the other one mate.

Let’s just look at who and what they are to and about, then:

Romans 9:4-5 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.


Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

Romans 1:14-16 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 9 is set apart in it’s topic as you can see. Your failure to distinguish this makes your theology skewed.

 

[golfjack]

reply

RJM, God chosses Israel and we must choose God.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Arminianism

This seems to be the only selection that would include the words

"whosoever will"