Orthodox reasoning/Praying to Saints

[Orthodox Christian]

OrthoC:

LOL! :D The Teacher has spoken, eh?

You have said as much.

The saints to which I have referred are indeed dead. That is, they have died. As far as their existence on this planet is concerned, it has come to an end.

Their bodies have died. The scripure is clear that they cannot and will not die. They are not dead saints, there is no such thing. I make this distinction because certain people, such as yourself, would like to ignore Christ's promised hope, obscure it, contradict it.

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

You can parse this and play semantics, but the fact is that He gives Zoe life.

Where does it say explicitly and plainly that only people on earth should pray for us?
Here, post it right here, chapter and verse

Oookay.

Matthew 5:44 - "...pray for them who despitefully use you, and persecute you..."

Here Christ is speaking primarily to his disciples -- who are alive on earth -- and commanding them very explicitly to pray for their enemies. This command cannot include those who have died for they are no longer persecuted or used despitefully.

1 Thessalonians 5:25 - "Brethren, pray for us."

Here Paul gives his fellow brothers in Christ in Thessalonica the injunction to pray for him. As one reads the letter to the Thessalonian Christians, one quickly realizes that Paul did not believe he was writing to those who had already died. :wink: His request is given to living people for living people (who are on Earth), namely, himself and those with him. Paul doesn't suggest anywhere in this letter that the Thessalonians should enlist the help of those saints who have died in praying for them. (see also 2 Thess. 3:1)

Ephesians 6:18 - "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit watching there unto with all perseverance and and supplication for all saints. And for me..."

Again, here, Paul is addressing the living Ephesian Christians (on Earth). He commands them to pray (or supplicate) for all saints, including himself.

James 5:16 - "...pray for one another..."

The context of this verse makes it clear that James is addressing living, Earth-bound, people. He is commanding them to pray for one another. That is, one living, Earth-bound, person praying for another living, Earth-bound person.

So you demonstrated that the bible was written to people this side of heaven. Absolutely brilliant- there need be no scripture nor light nor anything else for those who are in His Presence.
What I asked you to provide was eplicit and plain proof that ONLY people on this side should or can pray for us. What you provided is proof that people on this side should do so.
Did you miss the ONLY clause? Or did you simply choose to ignore it?

Now I have a scripture which demonstrates that the prayers of the righteous are poured out, not by Jesus, but by 24 elders(did someone say 'mediators?')

Quote:
"When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

Now that is direct evidence of the prayers of saints on earth being mediated in heaven.

The defense rests.

I hope you don't make a living as a defence lawyer! :o :-? You'd be starving to death!

All that the verse you posted says is that some elders, fallen down before the Lamb, are holding harps and bowls of incense that are the prayers of the saints. That's it. It doesn't say anything about whether or not the prayers had already been heard by God or the Lamb or not. It doesn't say how these bowls came to be in the possession of the elders or for what purpose the bowls are in their possession. It doesn't even say that the incense is offered by the elders to the Lamb. All they are doing with the "bowls of prayer" is holding them. There is no pouring out going on at all, OrthoC. So, where's this "saint mediation" that you're suggesting is present in this verse?

Got anything else :roll: you'd like to teach me?

In Christ, Aiki.

Yes, I do. It shouldn't take long, it involves the physical properties of incense.

Does it occur to you that incense does not stay in the bowl? Where do you think the smoke goes as the bowl is placed before the Lamb?
Psalm 141:2

Let my prayer be set before You as incense, The lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

So we have the context of incense being set befor Christ, rising to Him. This language is figurative, but invokes the elements of inner cour worship, where the priest gave holy sacrificial worship to Yahweh. There was an altar of incense

Luke 1:10-11

While the incense was being burned, a great crowd stood outside, praying. Then an angel of the Lord appeared to Zechariah, standing on the right side of the altar of incense

.

So let's cut to the chase: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that the incense flows through the hands of the elders to the Lamb. Why the Lamb? Because what we have to offer, and even what the elders have to offer- these are only dim shadows of the true sacrifice- God giving His only Son, and the Son willingly going as a sheep to slaughter.

The epistle to the Hebrews made it clear that the heavenly altar is the true altar, and the one in Jerusalem only a shadow/copy. Therefore, what happens in heaven mirrors what happened in the Temple. Priests offered incense for the people, elders offer incense (our prayers) for whom?

Class adjourned.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

So you demonstrated that the bible was written to people this side of heaven. Absolutely brilliant- there need be no scripture nor light nor anything else for those who are in His Presence.
What I asked you to provide was eplicit and plain proof that ONLY people on this side should or can pray for us. What you provided is proof that people on this side should do so.
Did you miss the ONLY clause? Or did you simply choose to ignore it?

A little sleight of hand to attempt to shift the burden of proof? Seems like you would need the scripture reference that instructs us to ALSO pray to people (saints) "no longer in the flesh", rather than aiki needing a reference telling us NOT to? Should we also pray to angels, since they are "alive" and in the prescense of God?

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

 

[cj]

Well, lets say, false teaching class adjourned...... and at the same time, open the floor to the truth.

...........

Revelation  8 : 3 ---- Revelation  8 : 4, "And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and much incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints out of the hand of the Angel before God."


So, here we have an Angel offering the prayers of the saints, prayers which were offered along with incense.

But before we tackle the matter of incense and prayers being two different things offered, lets get clear about the matter of the elders who make the offering.......


Revelation  4 : 4, "And around the throne there were twenty-four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns."

The elders here are not the elders of the church but the elders of the angels, because here, before the Lord's second coming, they are sitting on thrones already (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4). Among God's creation the angels are the most ancient ones. Their elders are the elders of the whole creation of God. That they sit on thrones with golden crowns on their heads indicates that they must be the ones who rule the universe until the millennial kingdom, when the authority to rule the earth will be given to the overcoming saints (Heb. 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4). That they are clothed in white garments and have a harp and golden bowls full of incense (5:8) indicates that now they are also priests before God; in the millennial kingdom, however, the reigning overcomers will be the priests of God and of Christ (20:6). The elders' golden crowns indicate that they are also ruling ones. Therefore, they are priests serving God and kings reigning over His creation.
The white garments here indicate that these angelic elders are sinless and, unlike the redeemed saints, have no need to be washed by the blood of the Lamb (7:14).

Revelation  4 : 10, "The twenty-four elders will fall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever; and they will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,..."

According to the preceding verses, this section of the holy Word implies that when the redeemed saints  represented by the man among the four living creatures, who are redeemed  have been perfected and glorified to be the proper priests and kings (20:6), the temporary priests and kings, the twenty-four angelic elders, will resign from their offices. This is implied by the fact that they will cast their crowns before the throne.


So, now we can know that contrary to what OC said, the elders are not dead saints but rather they are elder angels.


Additionally, there is the matter of the prayers and incense offered.....

Incense signifies Christ with all His merit to be added to the prayers of the saints that the saints' prayers offered upon the golden altar might be acceptable to God.

2 Corinthians 2 : 15, "For we are a fragrance of Christ to God in those who are being saved and in those who are perishing:"

Christ is the reality of every offering associated with the Tabernacle of God, and it is this Christ that is added to our prayers so that our prayers are acceptable to God.


Unfortunately, OC has once more exposed a weak understanding of the truth contained in scripture.


Saints, there is very little truth in the ways of denominations.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

So you demonstrated that the bible was written to people this side of heaven. Absolutely brilliant- there need be no scripture nor light nor anything else for those who are in His Presence.
What I asked you to provide was eplicit and plain proof that ONLY people on this side should or can pray for us. What you provided is proof that people on this side should do so.
Did you miss the ONLY clause? Or did you simply choose to ignore it?

A little sleight of hand to attempt to shift the burden of proof?

Burden of proof was and is on the original maker of claim- Aiki-
Now, Aiki can either answer the question or not, but the fallacious and misguided answer Aiki gave is what has been called into question.

]Seems like you would need the scripture reference that instructs us to ALSO pray to people (saints) "no longer in the flesh", rather than aiki needing a reference telling us NOT to? Should we also pray to angels, since they are "alive" and in the prescense of God?

Speaking of sleight of hand, where did I use the expression "pray to saints?" Please, feel free to post my quote right here_____________

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

More empty rhetoric. I think we know who has set the terms of debate here, and I'll be awaiting Aiki to answer my question as asked.

Are you aware of what the word canon (kanona) means? You do not display a grasp of the concept. Essentially, scripture is the straight edge/ruler/plumbline by which all 'truth' is measured. It is the guide by which the house is built. It is not the house.

From where I stand, it is you who abuses scripture to validate your heretical anti-Trinitarianism.

 

[Heidi]

Physical Death - the seperation of the soul from the body.

Spiritual death - is there any spiritual death? If there is that means that our soul dies and therefore we can't live eternally with God or in Hell ever separated from Him. But after our physical death there is something more, some greater life, and we understand that to be Heaven or Hell.

On the other hand what if there is true spiritual death? Does that mean our soul dies and we simply cease to exist? Is this life pointless, should we just eat, drink, and me merry? No, idn't that why we have faith, Jesus, and the promise of something greater?

So coming from the point of someone with faith there surely cannot be a spiritual death, otherwise our beliefs, faith, Christ would make no sense. So we do not cease to exist. Therefore those who are dewad and gone before us are not dead, but infactr alive with Christ (those in Heaven anyway).


"Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

The above quote, physical death, and then He deals with Spiritual life.

Do you not see the difference between asking someone who's still in the world a question and asking someone who's no longer in the world a question? In case you don't understand that concept, a person who's still in the world can answer you but someone who is not in the world cannot answer to you. That's why no sane person ever asks a man whose flesh has died a question. The bible specifically uses the word" prayer" for God and God alone. That is also a concept you fail to grasp, but neverhteless it's still true. There is not one single instance in the bible where someone prays to someone whose flesh has died.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

So you demonstrated that the bible was written to people this side of heaven. Absolutely brilliant- there need be no scripture nor light nor anything else for those who are in His Presence.
What I asked you to provide was eplicit and plain proof that ONLY people on this side should or can pray for us. What you provided is proof that people on this side should do so.
Did you miss the ONLY clause? Or did you simply choose to ignore it?

[quote="BradtheImpaler"A little sleight of hand to attempt to shift the burden of proof?[/quote]

Burden of proof was and is on the original maker of claim- Aiki-
Now, Aiki can either answer the question or not, but the fallacious and misguided answer Aiki gave is what has been called into question

Your position, that it is not unscriptural for anyone, in earth or in heaven to pray for us, avoids Aiki's point, which is concerned with trying to get in touch with someone (other than God) in heaven, through prayer. You are PRAYING TO that person to ask them to pray for you. His position is that you need instruction or example in the bible to support doing that.

]Seems like you would need the scripture reference that instructs us to ALSO pray to people (saints) "no longer in the flesh", rather than aiki needing a reference telling us NOT to? Should we also pray to angels, since they are "alive" and in the prescense of God?

Speaking of sleight of hand, where did I use the expression "pray to saints?" Please, feel free to post my quote right here_____________

All your arguments consist of nothing more than rationalization and euphemism. Just because you don't use the phrase "pray to saints" it means that's not what you're advocating? (Just because used car dealers now say it's a "previously owned vehicle" that means, in reality, it's NOT a "used car"?) You can deny ANYTHING that way, but it soon becomes laughably evident that all it is, is denial.

Sure, let's not say "praying to saints", let's say -

"Kneeling and making offerings before male and female images of deceased persons for the purpose of communication with, and supplication to, their departed spirits"

(Hmmm...I think you'd look better just putting up with the phrase -"praying to saints" after all?)

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

More empty rhetoric. I think we know who has set the terms of debate here, and I'll be awaiting Aiki to answer my question as asked.

[quote:b34aa]Are you aware of what the word canon (kanona) means? You do not display a grasp of the concept. Essentially, scripture is the straight edge/ruler/plumbline by which all 'truth' is measured. It is the guide by which the house is built. It is not the house

But your church added quite a few additions to the "house" that were warned against in the "guide". Stuff that's good for "business", stuff that appeals to the "inner pagan" in us all.

From where I stand, it is you who abuses scripture to validate your heretical anti-Trinitarianism.

[/quote:b34aa]

"Heresy is a cradle - orthodoxy a coffin" (Ingersoll)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Your position, that it is not unscriptural for anyone, in earth or in heaven to pray for us, avoids Aiki's point, which is concerned with trying to get in touch with someone (other than God) in heaven, through prayer. You are PRAYING TO that person to ask them to pray for you. His position is that you need instruction or example in the bible to support doing that.

Since we are "encompassed by such a cloud of witnesses," I need not work too hard to be heard. Since death has been defeated and all power and authority has been granted unto Christ, there is no barrier between life and death, only a veil over OUR eyes.

Aiki's position is that we need permission to do what he does not see in the bible. I'm hardly compelled by that imperative.

Seems like you would need the scripture reference that instructs us to ALSO pray to people (saints) "no longer in the flesh", rather than aiki needing a reference telling us NOT to? Should we also pray to angels, since they are "alive" and in the prescense of God?

Speaking of sleight of hand, where did I use the expression "pray to saints?" Please, feel free to post my quote right here_____________

All your arguments consist of nothing more than rationalization and euphemism. Just because you don't use the phrase "pray to saints" it means that's not what you're advocating? (Just because used car dealers now say it's a "previously owned vehicle" that means, in reality, it's NOT a "used car"?) You can deny ANYTHING that way, but it soon becomes laughably evident that all it is, is denial.

This is a phenomenally stupid denial of your own transparent word games. There is a canyon sized gap created by changing/adding a few small words.

Ralph Beats his wife often
Ralph beats his wife at chess often

See the difference? We both know very well that you are inserting YOUR view of the matter over my words.
And again, Elmer Gantry, where did I say "pray to?"
Post proof, or slip into the ownage collar.

Sure, let's not say "praying to saints", let's say -

"Kneeling and making offerings before male and female images of deceased persons for the purpose of communication with, and supplication to, their departed spirits"

Let's say 'grandstanding to make a flaccid point.'
It is not our custom to kneel when showing honor. It IS our custom to prostrate ourself before One and One only. We do not make offerings to images, I think you witnessed that at a kegger and confused the two.
"Communication" typically infers conversation. I have never had a saint from heaven speak to me, nor would I expect to.

People submit slips of paper with names on them to prayer chains. They expect results because the fervent prayer of a a righteous man avails much.

(Hmmm...I think you'd look better just putting up with the phrase -"praying to saints" after all?)

I'd think you'd be best to make your point before you toot your horn

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

More empty rhetoric. I think we know who has set the terms of debate here, and I'll be awaiting Aiki to answer my question as asked.

[quote:52cce]Are you aware of what the word canon (kanona) means? You do not display a grasp of the concept. Essentially, scripture is the straight edge/ruler/plumbline by which all 'truth' is measured. It is the guide by which the house is built. It is not the house

But your church added quite a few additions to the "house" that were warned against in the "guide". Stuff that's good for "business", stuff that appeals to the "inner pagan" in us all.

Sez you. Your opinion is noted and weighed for accuracy. Scales say "wanting."
Of course, this assessment comes from a guy who mocks the Trinity and quotes agnostics.

From where I stand, it is you who abuses scripture to validate your heretical anti-Trinitarianism.

"Heresy is a cradle - orthodoxy a coffin" (Ingersoll)

[/quote:52cce]
Spoken like a true apostate. Could have Arius, Montanus, or Anton Lavey had said it better?
<bravo>

 

[yesha]

I was surprised to find that the "magic" of the biblical times often appears (from the little I've looked into it) to use words which are essentially "prayers" to spiritual powers, expecially angels. It occured to me that perhaps why magic was/is considered a no no is because "prayers" - if you would call these prayers, are not prayers to God, and for that reason, praying/invoking Azliel and the rest might not be considered much different then perhaps praying to a foreign god, who might be considered an angel of some sort aswell.

consider, if you will, which seems reminicent of earlier "spells"
http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/sword.htm

"I conjure you, Azliel [AZLI-AL] called X [HURI ZHI]; I conjure you, Arel [ARAL] called X [SQRISIHIH], Ta'aniel [TONI-AL] called X [AAThRTzAHIH], Tafel [TPAL] called X [HUPQI HUH AHIH], and the most glorious of these Yofiel Mittron [IUPIAL MITTRUN] called X [HLIKIH HUH], the glory from above. With the permission of my king (I conjure) Yadiel [IDIAL] called X [SGHUH HIH], Ra'asiel [ROCI-AL] called X [MHUPThKIHIITz], Haniel [JNIAL] called X [RHU PGTIH], Haniel [HNIAL] called X [PHUTzPNIGIH], Asrael [AShRAL] called X [ThHMUThIHIH], Yisriel [UIShRIAL] called X [QNIThI PTzIH], A'shael [OShHAL] called X [IHUTh NTHIHIH], Amuhael [OMUHAL] called X [RUPNIGIH USSIH], and Asrael [UATzRAL] called X [ShHGNU ThGIHH], that you attach yourselves to me and surrender the "Sword" to me, so that I may use it according to my desire ... "

 

[Orthodox Christian]

yesha:

You will find also that salvation cults in the years before Christ also featured Sons of gods dying and coming to life; you will find that people prayed and pray to one god who is in fact not a god at all; you will find that there were temples togods just as there was a Temple to Yahweh...

Your point is a logical fallacy, a false comparison. Think before you write.

 

[Heidi]

It is absolutely absurd to carry on a debate with people who try to find biblical justification to pray to anyone but God. There is none and they know it. So they try to split hairs just like atheists do when they argue there is no God. But the bible says that everyone knows there is a God because God has made it plain to them by his creation. They simply "suppress the truth by their wickedness." And that is what people who say we're supposed to pray to dead people do. It's just a game that people who know they're wrong but cannot admit it, play. They're fooling no one but themselves. I'm returning to other topics that have intelligent arguments.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Your position, that it is not unscriptural for anyone, in earth or in heaven to pray for us, avoids Aiki's point, which is concerned with trying to get in touch with someone (other than God) in heaven, through prayer. You are PRAYING TO that person to ask them to pray for you. His position is that you need instruction or example in the bible to support doing that.

Since we are "encompassed by such a cloud of witnesses," I need not work too hard to be heard. Since death has been defeated and all power and authority has been granted unto Christ, there is no barrier between life and death, only a veil over OUR eyes

But why you would seek to contact one of the departed "witnesses" instead of, or along with, prayer to God Himself, (since the bible teaches, and you yourself supposedly believe, we have DIRECT access to Him) remains inexplicable. Unless we realize that the religious inclination of primitive human nature (as evidenced in all ancient pagan/polytheistic cultures) is to pray to MULTIPLE PERSONAGES, even among those tribes which also espoused a supreme, primary deity

[quote:dcb5c]Aiki's position is that we need permission to do what he does not see in the bible. I'm hardly compelled by that imperative

Of course not - you're only compelled by what an ancient, superstitious religious system TELLS you you should be compelled by. (Have you ever had an ORIGINAL THOUGHT since becoming a slave of Orthodoxy?)

Seems like you would need the scripture reference that instructs us to ALSO pray to people (saints) "no longer in the flesh", rather than aiki needing a reference telling us NOT to? Should we also pray to angels, since they are "alive" and in the prescense of God?

Speaking of sleight of hand, where did I use the expression "pray to saints?" Please, feel free to post my quote right here_____________

I don't need YOUR quote on this - I have as many as I need from the Orthodox Church itself. Such as...

"Prayers TO the Patron Saint"
http://www.orthodox.net/prayers/patron.htm

- and the advice of am Orthodox priest to a laymen who has chosen St. James as his patron saint...

"What a wonderful patron saint you have chosen, St. James the brother of the Lord...PRAY TO YOUR HOLY SAINT and let him be an example in your Christian life" (Father A.)
http://www.neepeople.com/patronsaint_jim/-29k

Now I suppose you will try to draw a distinction between "praying to saints" and "praying TO saints"? Give up, OC. Tell the truth.

All your arguments consist of nothing more than rationalization and euphemism. Just because you don't use the phrase "pray to saints" it means that's not what you're advocating? (Just because used car dealers now say it's a "previously owned vehicle" that means, in reality, it's NOT a "used car"?) You can deny ANYTHING that way, but it soon becomes laughably evident that all it is, is denial.

This is a phenomenally stupid denial of your own transparent word games. There is a canyon sized gap created by changing/adding a few small words.

Ralph Beats his wife often
Ralph beats his wife at chess often

See the difference? We both know very well that you are inserting YOUR view of the matter over my words.

No, I am inserting your church's view of the matter over your words. At least they admit what you won't. Do you know what the definition of to "pray" is?

"To make a fervent request or entreaty"

That is EXACTLY what you do when "speaking" with the saints, is it not?

And again, Elmer Gantry, where did I say "pray to?"
Post proof, or slip into the ownage collar

I have proven Orthodox people do "pray to saints" per their own church's use of said phrase, and by the dictionary definition of "pray". What else do you need? Why not exhibit a little Christian humility and admit you're wrong?

Sure, let's not say "praying to saints", let's say -

"Kneeling and making offerings before male and female images of deceased persons for the purpose of communication with, and supplication to, their departed spirits"

Let's say 'grandstanding to make a flaccid point.'
It is not our custom to kneel when showing honor. It IS our custom to prostrate ourself before One and One only. We do not make offerings to images, I think you witnessed that at a kegger and confused the two.
"Communication" typically infers conversation. I have never had a saint from heaven speak to me, nor would I expect to

Perhaps there was a heck of a "frat party" going on at the Saint Barbera Greek Orthodox Church, then, when their spokesman let this slip...

"...so we must also honor icons with the OFFERINGS OF INCENSE AND CANDLES, for such has been the pious custom of antiquity"
http://www.saintbarbera.net/icones.htm

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

More empty rhetoric. I think we know who has set the terms of debate here, and I'll be awaiting Aiki to answer my question as asked

You seem to employ the phrase "empty rhetoric" in place of "pleading the 5th".

[quote:dcb5c]Are you aware of what the word canon (kanona) means? You do not display a grasp of the concept. Essentially, scripture is the straight edge/ruler/plumbline by which all 'truth' is measured. It is the guide by which the house is built. It is not the house

But your church added quite a few additions to the "house" that were warned against in the "guide". Stuff that's good for "business", stuff that appeals to the "inner pagan" in us all.

Sez you. Your opinion is noted and weighed for accuracy. Scales say "wanting."
Of course, this assessment comes from a guy who mocks the Trinity and quotes agnostics

"Gennadius, Patriarch of Constantinople, was so amazed by this extraordinary composition (The Athanasian Creed) that he frankly pronounced it the work of a drunken man" (Gibbon, p.598)

From where I stand, it is you who abuses scripture to validate your heretical anti-Trinitarianism.

"Heresy is a cradle - orthodoxy a coffin" (Ingersoll)

Spoken like a true apostate

My only regret about being called apostate is that it would intend I had been foolish enough to have been seduced by organized religion in the first place.

Could Arius, Montanus, or Anton Lavey have said it better?
<bravo>

[/quote:dcb5c][/quote:dcb5c]

Not too impressive a list. I could offer a much better "Rogue's Gallery" utilizing famous CHRISTIANS :evil:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

But why you would seek to contact one of the departed "witnesses" instead of, or along with, prayer to God Himself, (since the bible teaches, and you yourself supposedly believe, we have DIRECT access to Him) remains inexplicable. Unless we realize that the religious inclination of primitive human nature (as evidenced in all ancient pagan/polytheistic cultures) is to pray to MULTIPLE PERSONAGES, even among those tribes which also espoused a supreme, primary deity

Why would anyone ever ask anyone to pray for them, since we have direct access to God? Yet they do. They do because they are taught to do so. Some of us believe that there is a life after this one, and some of you are atheists in the guise of religion.

Aiki's position is that we need permission to do what he does not see in the bible. I'm hardly compelled by that imperative

Of course not - you're only compelled by what an ancient, superstitious religious system TELLS you you should be compelled by. (Have you ever had an ORIGINAL THOUGHT since becoming a slave of Orthodoxy?)

Have you ever had an original thought?
I stand accused of being part of an ancient religion, and I plead guilty. You, on the other hand, are part of a modern heresy, wherein the man worships his own cleverness.
This gives you little to worship, but many opinions.

Seems like you would need the scripture reference that instructs us to ALSO pray to people (saints) "no longer in the flesh", rather than aiki needing a reference telling us NOT to? Should we also pray to angels, since they are "alive" and in the prescense of God?

A back note on this one: No one ever asked you to participate in our practices. Red herring.

Speaking of sleight of hand, where did I use the expression "pray to saints?" Please, feel free to post my quote right here_____________

I don't need YOUR quote on this - I have as many as I need from the Orthodox Church itself. Such as...

"Prayers TO the Patron Saint"
http://www.orthodox.net/prayers/patron.htm

- and the advice of am Orthodox priest to a laymen who has chosen St. James as his patron saint...

"What a wonderful patron saint you have chosen, St. James the brother of the Lord...PRAY TO YOUR HOLY SAINT and let him be an example in your Christian life" (Father A.)
http://www.neepeople.com/patronsaint_jim/-29k

Now I suppose you will try to draw a distinction between "praying to saints" and "praying TO saints"? Give up, OC. Tell the truth.

Truth of the matter is you're deflecting and avoiding. I asked you to post where I had used the expression, and you started side kicking like a Rockette.
Still awaiting that proof, Brad.

All your arguments consist of nothing more than rationalization and euphemism. Just because you don't use the phrase "pray to saints" it means that's not what you're advocating? (Just because used car dealers now say it's a "previously owned vehicle" that means, in reality, it's NOT a "used car"?) You can deny ANYTHING that way, but it soon becomes laughably evident that all it is, is denial.

This is a phenomenally stupid denial of your own transparent word games. There is a canyon sized gap created by changing/adding a few small words.

[quote:05d2c]Ralph Beats his wife often
Ralph beats his wife at chess often

See the difference? We both know very well that you are inserting YOUR view of the matter over my words.

No, I am inserting your church's view of the matter over your words. At least they admit what you won't. Do you know what the definition of to "pray" is?
"To make a fervent request or entreaty"[/quote:05d2c]
You'd carp about it if I used the words, yet you insert the words when I don't use them. The reason why I say things as I do is that I know some of you are too narrow and dim to understand the differences in the way words are used. The word pray, for example, has the following definitions:

To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
To move or bring by prayer or entreaty

Now, internally, we say "pray to" saint. We know what we mean. But in communicating with heterodox, heretics, agnostics, and the like, it becomes necessary to clarify, since you are constitutionally predisposed toward seeking to denigrate and distort.

And again, Elmer Gantry, where did I say "pray to?"
Post proof, or slip into the ownage collar

I have proven Orthodox people do "pray to saints" per their own church's use of said phrase, and by the dictionary definition of "pray". What else do you need? Why not exhibit a little Christian humility and admit you're wrong?

You have failed to post proof. simple as that. You mock Christian humility, but when you stand before Christ, you won't be laughing.

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

More empty rhetoric. I think we know who has set the terms of debate here, and I'll be awaiting Aiki to answer my question as asked

You seem to employ the phrase "empty rhetoric" in place of "pleading the 5th".

Actually, I employ the term when you throw loaded phrases disguised as questions. Ergo, I use the term descriptively. One only pleads the fifth to actual questions. Sort your flagging argument out and get back to me.

Are you aware of what the word canon (kanona) means? You do not display a grasp of the concept. Essentially, scripture is the straight edge/ruler/plumbline by which all 'truth' is measured. It is the guide by which the house is built. It is not the house

But your church added quite a few additions to the "house" that were warned against in the "guide". Stuff that's good for "business", stuff that appeals to the "inner pagan" in us all.

[quote:05d2c]Sez you. Your opinion is noted and weighed for accuracy. Scales say "wanting."
Of course, this assessment comes from a guy who mocks the Trinity and quotes agnostics

"Gennadius, Patriarch of Constantinople, was so amazed by this extraordinary composition (The Athanasian Creed) that he frankly pronounced it the work of a drunken man" (Gibbon, p.598)

From where I stand, it is you who abuses scripture to validate your heretical anti-Trinitarianism.

"Heresy is a cradle - orthodoxy a coffin" (Ingersoll)

Spoken like a true apostate

My only regret about being called apostate is that it would intend I had been foolish enough to have been seduced by organized religion in the first place. [/quote:05d2c]
"Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
You go boy.

Could Arius, Montanus, or Anton Lavey have said it better?
<bravo>

Not too impressive a list. I could offer a much better "Rogue's Gallery" utilizing famous CHRISTIANS :evil:

I feel bad enough scandalizing those by way of comparison with you Brad, but I was in need of a comparison.

 

[yesha]

You will find also that salvation cults in the years before Christ also featured Sons of gods dying and coming to life; you will find that people prayed and pray to one god who is in fact not a god at all; you will find that there were temples togods just as there was a Temple to Yahweh...

It's true that people did pray outside of Christianity.
It's who did they pray to, however, that must be considered.
Many of the false gods that people pray to might be identified with angelic powers. Because prayer inheritly carries with it a kind of worship, praying to an angel I think is forbidden.

Likewise, praying to a 'saint' is for the very same reason I would think is forbidden. I might even go so far as to say that praying to Jesus is still not correct, rather one prays THROUGH Jesus to the Father.

Now I understand that if you are asking a saint to pray that God will save you, then in my opinion you are not really "praying" to the saint. But if you ask the saint to save you, then you are praying to the saint, and probably sinning by doing so.

It may be that when someone says "Mary save me", that they mean by this, "Mary pray to God that He will save me" But I question if that kind of thinking is really going through a persons head. In that case, it's probably ok, except that it may mislead people who observe this behaviour, and possibly lead them into sin by praying to Mary.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

It's true that people did pray outside of Christianity.
It's who did they pray to, however, that must be considered.
Many of the false gods that people pray to might be identified with angelic powers. Because prayer inheritly carries with it a kind of worship, praying to an angel I think is forbidden.

Likewise, praying to a 'saint' is for the very same reason I would think is forbidden. I might even go so far as to say that praying to Jesus is still not correct, rather one prays THROUGH Jesus to the Father.

Now I understand that if you are asking a saint to pray that God will save you, then in my opinion you are not really "praying" to the saint. But if you ask the saint to save you, then you are praying to the saint, and probably sinning by doing so.

It may be that when someone says "Mary save me", that they mean by this, "Mary pray to God that He will save me" But I question if that kind of thinking is really going through a persons head. In that case, it's probably ok, except that it may mislead people who observe this behaviour, and possibly lead them into sin by praying to Mary.

_________________
This is an excellent response. You have rightly stated, to paraphrase and sum, that it is what is going on in the heart and mind of the believer that is of concern.

It is true that people could take asking a saint to pray for them to the level of praying to the saint, as if the prayers or the saints themselves have some sort of magic power. You have also demonstrated a clear understanding of what the word ‘save’ actually means, and have rightly said that people could go astray using this term liberally.

I might add that people who use the capital W in referring to the bible as ‘the Word of God’ stand in danger of idolizing the bible. Likewise, those who rightly speak of their individual relationship with God stand in danger of under-emphasizing the Body. Those who eschew Bishops, but too highly esteem their ‘pastor’ are also in grave danger.

We have an enemy of our soul who capitalizes on human frailties. This is why it is important for people to understand what they do and why. But much moreso is it important that our worship be sincere, heartfelt, and repentant.

I commend you for your balanced response. I can see that you have made the effort to see the world through the eyes of those different than you.

James.

 

[cj]

It may be that when someone says "Mary save me", that they mean by this, "Mary pray to God that He will save me" But I question if that kind of thinking is really going through a persons head. In that case, it's probably ok, except that it may mislead people who observe this behaviour, and possibly lead them into sin by praying to Mary.

And therein lies the wickedness.......

The Tower of Babel was going nowhere else than up to God, but it was not God's way.

Likewise, asking for a dead saint to "pray" to God on my behalf might seem within the bounds of reasonable God-focused intent..... but its not, because its not God's way.

And anything other than God's way is nothing less than a mixture that is unacceptable to God.

Understand this, if a dead saint were able to pray, what do you think this dead saint would be doing every moment that he or she had? What an insult to the dead saint to think that he needs to be asked to pray for men still struggling on earth.

Or maybe OC thinks the dead saints need to be remind by the living saints that there is still some of God's work going on down here.

The absurdity of the concept is amazing, but even worse is the acceptance by believers that this could be true.

But back to your thought Yesha.....

In the garden, all the Satan did to initiate the fall was introduce a thought into the mind of Eve.

"Did God say?"

Where is the lie in "Did God say?" Nowhere, there is no lie in the question "Did God say?"

Yet a lie exists in this question.......... the lie of the hearts intent.

And this is where the truth regarding the lie of "asking" saints to pray to God is found. Why ask them, why not just go through the opened veil striaght to God.

God has never been influenced by numbers, its not His way. Purity is what influences Him.

How many men got God to change His mind concerning the Israelites? Uno, one.

How many men got Him to change His mind concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? Again just one.

All God needs is the one person to come to Him out of a pure heart, and He will move heaven and earth for this person.

But the lie will first subtly suggest in a way that could cause one to fall away. Then the lie will follow up with an environment that influences one to fall away.

This is what we have in the apostate religions such as seen in the Orthodox institution.


Don't believe any of it has value. None of it does.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

It may be that when someone says "Mary save me", that they mean by this, "Mary pray to God that He will save me" But I question if that kind of thinking is really going through a persons head. In that case, it's probably ok, except that it may mislead people who observe this behaviour, and possibly lead them into sin by praying to Mary.

And therein lies the wickedness.......

The Tower of Babel was going nowhere else than up to God, but it was not God's way.

Your lack of discernment is proved day by day on this forum. The tower was being built to heaven, not to God. They were doing it to make a name for themselves, to build a testament to their pride, much like your posts.

Likewise, asking for a dead saint to "pray" to God on my behalf might seem within the bounds of reasonable God-focused intent..... but its not, because its not God's way.

There is no such thing as a dead saint. (John 11:26). You would know this if you weren't bound up with your soul sleep heresy.

And anything other than God's way is nothing less than a mixture that is unacceptable to God.

And of course, you believe yourself in a position to teach and proclaim what is acceptable to God, and what is not. David Koresh so also believed.

Understand this, if a dead saint were able to pray, what do you think this dead saint would be doing every moment that he or she had? What an insult to the dead saint to think that he needs to be asked to pray for men still struggling on earth.

Or maybe OC thinks the dead saints need to be remind by the living saints that there is still some of God's work going on down here.

He who asks prayer from any man needs not that man's prayers, for God has already heard. The purpose in requesting prayer can be found in this admonition:
Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, and He will lift you up.

It is completely superfluous to ask prayer of saints in heaven or on earth unless one understands that we are One. Not one, as in CJ is a church of one, but One, as in unified in the Lord.

The absurdity of the concept is amazing, but even worse is the acceptance by believers that this could be true.

But back to your thought Yesha.....

In the garden, all the Satan did to initiate the fall was introduce a thought into the mind of Eve.

"Did God say?"

Where is the lie in "Did God say?" Nowhere, there is no lie in the question "Did God say?"

Yet a lie exists in this question.......... the lie of the hearts intent.

The lie:
"Did God really say 'he who believes in me shall not die; yet even if he does die(body), yet shall he live.'"
But what of the intent of the liar? The liar here intends to exalt themselves above the great unwashed Christian masses. All "in love," of course.

How many men got God to change His mind concerning the Israelites? Uno, one.

How many men got Him to change His mind concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? Again just one.

All God needs is the one person to come to Him out of a pure heart, and He will move heaven and earth for this person.

Truth is here hidden among lies. Indeed, one man can make a difference- Elijah was a man with a nature like ours- he prayed and the sky was shut of rain for 3 years.
Of course, the order is "for prayers for all men" and the teaching is to pray pater imon (OUR Father), but you can be forgiven your individualistic emphasis, since the lone wolf rarely thinks in terms of shared pasture.

But the lie will first subtly suggest in a way that could cause one to fall away. Then the lie will follow up with an environment that influences one to fall away.

Gibberish. Daniel and the youth prayed in Babylon. Likewise, we othodox and faithful Catholics and Protestants can successfully worship the Lord in this land and time of self righteous false prophets.
Jezebel always persecutes the true prophets and sends forth her false prophets to curse the true.
Your words and sword will fall.

This is what we have in the apostate religions such as seen in the Orthodox institution.


Don't believe any of it has value. None of it does.

How ortunate everyone is to have you blanketly dismiss that which you deem unworthy. God forbid they would have to investigate and think for themselves.

In love,
cj

1 Corinthians 13
If you can find a ministry of fault-finding and slander in that chapter, you win the scavenger hunt.

 

[cj]

The response of religiousity to truth can be so predictable....

Your lack of discernment is proved day by day on this forum. The tower was being built to heaven, not to God. They were doing it to make a name for themselves, to build a testament to their pride, much like your posts.

To heaven huh...... but not to God.

And you have the audacity to say that it is I who lack discernment?

Tell me oh full-of-knowledge OC..... what did the builders of the tower expect to find in heaven? Maybe a harem of women, like the muslims do?

Genesis 11 : 4 - 6, "And they said, Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower whose top is in the heavens; and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered over the surface of the whole earth. And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower which the children of men had built. And Jehovah said, Behold, they are one people, and they all have one language;.... and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and now nothing which they purpose to do will be kept from them.

"Nothing that they purpose will be kept from them."

This is God speaking about men who were living on the earth, yet, these men wer building a tower to reach the heavens. Why? Why the heavens? What's in the heavens that would gain the attention of men who could accomplish whatever they purposed?

Maybe they just wanted to hangout with whatever they thought was in the heavens.

And what might this "whatever" look like?

God maybe?

Sure. Cause if there is one thing we can be sure of, its that God is definitly found in heaven.

So no my silly fellow OC, contrary to your thoughts, these builders of the tower were most assuredly after God.

There is no such thing as a dead saint. (John 11:26). You would know this if you weren't bound up with your soul sleep heresy.

Yada, yada, yada..... God of the living not the dead...... yada, yada, yada.....

So I guess you also preach that Jesus did not die on the cross.

You're an ignorant man OC, scripture enlightens us that the flesh of a saint is most certainly dead. Therefore..... dead saint.

And your tongue exposes this ignorance to the uttermost.

And of course, you believe yourself in a position to teach and proclaim what is acceptable to God, and what is not. David Koresh so also believed.

Contrary to the position that sectist and cultist take, I remain open to the prompting of the Lord.

See, my stand is in the Person of Christ. Therefore as wrong as I might be in my being and living, praise the Lord, His righteousness is always mine.

But you show yourself weak........ notice, my point regarded God's acceptance of a mixture, and how what you spoke was a mixture.

Why not try discussing the point.

He who asks prayer from any man needs not that man's prayers, for God has already heard. The purpose in requesting prayer can be found in this admonition:
Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, and He will lift you up.

It is completely superfluous to ask prayer of saints in heaven or on earth unless one understands that we are One. Not one, as in CJ is a church of one, but One, as in unified in the Lord.

You crack me up with your simplicity..... "CJ is a church of one".... oohh boy.

Yes, humble yourself under the mighty hand of God..... did you notice it said God, and not dead saints?

Why not follow up the scripture you referenced above with a scripture that tells us that to pray to dead saints is to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God?

Maybe because you can't, cause there ain't one.

Tell me of full-of-knowledge OC, which comes first, our oneness with God or our oneness with the saints?

Be careful now, its a tricky question.

But what of the intent of the liar? The liar here intends to exalt themselves above the great unwashed Christian masses. All "in love," of course.

Oh subtle serpent, how you try to hide your deception in yet another lie.......

Again I ask, show us the scripture that tells us to pray to the "body-dead" saints OC.

What you present above has nothing to do with what I said.

Try and follow......

Jesus initiated a thought into the minds of men, this thought being, "HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME"....... get it OC. This is the principle light by which the rest of the verse can be understood.

On the other hand, Satan said, "DID GOD REALLY SAY?", which is also the principle light by which we can understand the rest of the verse.

The first is positive, the second negative.

Believing in (into) Christ requires no other person, just the believer and Christ. But when we start to look at the false doctrines of the apostate institutions we find that believing into Christ requires all sorts of other things besides Christ.

This is the lie manifested in it fullness.

And you hate when your darkness is exposed for what it is don't you.

Believing into Christ negates the need for our praying to anyone else.

Truth is here hidden among lies. Indeed, one man can make a difference- Elijah was a man with a nature like ours- he prayed and the sky was shut of rain for 3 years.
Of course, the order is "for prayers for all men" and the teaching is to pray pater imon (OUR Father), but you can be forgiven your individualistic emphasis, since the lone wolf rarely thinks in terms of shared pasture.

Again.... utter nonsense.

Notice how you suddenly change from the topic of one man praying for..... to prayers for all men.

The view is most certainly corporate on our side........ but absolutely single on where we focus.

No believer needs to see God through another believer's eyes.

"Our Father" comes out of one mouth per person, and goes directly to the ears of God.

But you pray "Hey dead-body brother, give me a hand here a second."

OC, the truth seems to be that you might actually have no clue as to what prayer really is.

Prayer is Christ.

Gibberish. Daniel and the youth prayed in Babylon. Likewise, we othodox and faithful Catholics and Protestants can successfully worship the Lord in this land and time of self righteous false prophets.

Yes OC, and there are certainly saints today that pray Christ in the apostate institutions.

But understand this....... though Daniel was IN Babylon, he never allowed Babylon to get in him.

Big difference.

Sometimes the Lord will leave you in a place you hate, yet, in His great mercy and grace you can still find and abide in His joy.

Know this though...... Babylon never ever replaced or became like Jerusalem.

How Daniel must have longed to be in Jerusalem. And how this was his salvation while he lived out his life in Babylon.


Try and understand my point, Satan can only provide the environment, the man must chose to allow it to become a part of him.


The apostate institutions are such an environment, design to pull a believer into darkness. But a godly man, though in such an environment, can remain untouched by it through God mercy.

Jezebel always persecutes the true prophets and sends forth her false prophets to curse the true.
Your words and sword will fall.

Maybe on your deaf ears perhaps.

But time will tell. I trust in the Lord, and I know He desires you to be saved.

How ortunate everyone is to have you blanketly dismiss that which you deem unworthy. God forbid they would have to investigate and think for themselves.

How much of a grace was it for God to SEND His Spirit so that we would be able to know. Or His apostles. Or even give us His written word.

How foolish it is when in pride a man rejects God's grace.

1 Corinthians 13
If you can find a ministry of fault-finding and slander in that chapter, you win the scavenger hunt.

The Lord did not come to live in me and out of me that I may become a scavenger.

But if it please you to scavenge.... be my guest scavenge away.

The truth is, I doubt you have any real idea about the truth contained in 1 Corinthians 13..... something that we will most likely never find out as your modus operandi is to avoid discussing scripture.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The response of religiousity to truth can be so predictable....

Your lack of discernment is proved day by day on this forum. The tower was being built to heaven, not to God. They were doing it to make a name for themselves, to build a testament to their pride, much like your posts.

To heaven huh...... but not to God.

And you have the audacity to say that it is I who lack discernment?

It need not even be said, but I noted it for the sake of order. The Hebrew clearly is 'heaven.' Had they intended on reaching God, it would have said so.

Tell me oh full-of-knowledge OC..... what did the builders of the tower expect to find in heaven? Maybe a harem of women, like the muslims do?

It seems clear that there intent was to make a name for themselves. Reading comprehension, CJ. See below.

Genesis 11 : 4 - 6, "And they said, Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower whose top is in the heavens; and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered over the surface of the whole earth. And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower which the children of men had built. And Jehovah said, Behold, they are one people, and they all have one language;.... and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and now nothing which they purpose to do will be kept from them.

This is God speaking about men who were living on the earth, yet, these men wer building a tower to reach the heavens. Why? Why the heavens? What's in the heavens that would gain the attention of men who could accomplish whatever they purposed?

Ah CJ, swallowing a camel and squeezing out a gnat- they were seeking a name for themselves. Clue provided free of charge by OC holdings, ltd.

So no my silly fellow OC, contrary to your thoughts, these builders of the tower were most assuredly after God.

And now I'm silly. Isn't that just quaint.

There is no such thing as a dead saint. (John 11:26). You would know this if you weren't bound up with your soul sleep heresy.

Yada, yada, yada..... God of the living not the dead...... yada, yada, yada.....

And thusly it disdains the very words of Christ, with a trite pop culture colloquialism.

So I guess you also preach that Jesus did not die on the cross.

You're an ignorant man OC, scripture enlightens us that the flesh of a saint is most certainly dead. Therefore..... dead saint.

The first statement is just unbridled stupidity, a flaccid argument from an impotent intellect.
The second statement makes it clear that Christ needs to illumine your unspiritual mind as He did Martha- for she too was unable to see past the decay of carbon. She, however, was illumined- you remain in utter darkness.

And of course, you believe yourself in a position to teach and proclaim what is acceptable to God, and what is not. David Koresh so also believed.

Contrary to the position that sectist and cultist take, I remain open to the prompting of the Lord.

That's what they said, too.

See, my stand is in the Person of Christ. Therefore as wrong as I might be in my being and living, praise the Lord, His righteousness is always mine.

But you show yourself weak........ notice, my point regarded God's acceptance of a mixture, and how what you spoke was a mixture.

Absolute argle bargle, the ruminations of a chemically spoiled mind.

He who asks prayer from any man needs not that man's prayers, for God has already heard. The purpose in requesting prayer can be found in this admonition:
Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, and He will lift you up.

It is completely superfluous to ask prayer of saints in heaven or on earth unless one understands that we are One. Not one, as in CJ is a church of one, but One, as in unified in the Lord.

You crack me up with your simplicity..... "CJ is a church of one".... oohh boy.

Yes, I'm good for a laugh or three, I bring some gravitas to the argument, and so it goes. You, on the other hand, jump up and down like Mike Tyson on crack, throwing weak insults and generally embarrassing yourself.

You are a church of one, sweetheart, a point you've illustrated and bragged of consistently.

Yes, humble yourself under the mighty hand of God..... did you notice it said God, and not dead saints?

Why not follow up the scripture you referenced above with a scripture that tells us that to pray to dead saints is to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God?

What dead saints? There are none.

Maybe because you can't, cause there ain't one.

I agree- there are no dead saints.

Tell me of full-of-knowledge OC, which comes first, our oneness with God or our oneness with the saints?

Be careful now, its a tricky question.

Only to the dim is it a tricky question. There can only be Oneness with the saints by Oneness with God- and, this part you will ponder in the outer darkness- you can only experience Oneness with God through Oneness with His people.
There are two great commandments, not one.

But what of the intent of the liar? The liar here intends to exalt themselves above the great unwashed Christian masses. All "in love," of course.

Oh subtle serpent, how you try to hide your deception in yet another lie.......

Again I ask, show us the scripture that tells us to pray to the "body-dead" saints OC.

What you present above has nothing to do with what I said.

Try and follow......

Jesus initiated a thought into the minds of men, this thought being, "HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME"....... get it OC. This is the principle light by which the rest of the verse can be understood.

On the other hand, Satan said, "DID GOD REALLY SAY?", which is also the principle light by which we can understand the rest of the verse.

The first is positive, the second negative.

Believing in (into) Christ requires no other person, just the believer and Christ. But when we start to look at the false doctrines of the apostate institutions we find that believing into Christ requires all sorts of other things besides Christ.

I'm sorry, I dozed off during your soliloquy. I believe you were golfing 5 fairways at once there. Pick a single point and roll with it, cupcake.

This is the lie manifested in it fullness.

You should have that made into a tshirt

And you hate when your darkness is exposed for what it is don't you

Actually, no, I don't. But that has no relevance here- even your flashlight casts darkness.

Truth is here hidden among lies. Indeed, one man can make a difference- Elijah was a man with a nature like ours- he prayed and the sky was shut of rain for 3 years.
Of course, the order is "for prayers for all men" and the teaching is to pray pater imon (OUR Father), but you can be forgiven your individualistic emphasis, since the lone wolf rarely thinks in terms of shared pasture.

Again.... utter nonsense.

Notice how you suddenly change from the topic of one man praying for..... to prayers for all men.

The view is most certainly corporate on our side........ but absolutely single on where we focus.

No believer needs to see God through another believer's eyes.

"Our Father" comes out of one mouth per person, and goes directly to the ears of God.

Which is why Jesus taught us to pray "our"- because it's all about the army of one.
Dim, dimmer, dimmest.
not pater mou
pater imon
Jesus taught on the church, not on sociopaths in the guise of the prophet tearing at the Body. Yet here you be.

OC, the truth seems to be that you might actually have no clue as to what prayer really is.

Prayer is Christ.

Wow, profound- nice bumper sticker/sound bite
You go.

Gibberish. Daniel and the youth prayed in Babylon. Likewise, we othodox and faithful Catholics and Protestants can successfully worship the Lord in this land and time of self righteous false prophets.

Yes OC, and there are certainly saints today that pray Christ in the apostate institutions.

But understand this....... though Daniel was IN Babylon, he never allowed Babylon to get in him.

Big difference.

Sometimes the Lord will leave you in a place you hate, yet, in His great mercy and grace you can still find and abide in His joy.

Know this though...... Babylon never ever replaced or became like Jerusalem.

How Daniel must have longed to be in Jerusalem. And how this was his salvation while he lived out his life in Babylon.


Try and understand my point, Satan can only provide the environment, the man must chose to allow it to become a part of him.


The apostate institutions are such an environment, design to pull a believer into darkness. But a godly man, though in such an environment, can remain untouched by it through God mercy.

I know a man of wisdom when he decries his own failings. I know a man of social alienation and mental deficiency when I see how rages against all others.
It's called delusions of grandeur.

1 Corinthians 13
If you can find a ministry of fault-finding and slander in that chapter, you win the scavenger hunt.

The Lord did not come to live in me and out of me that I may become a scavenger.

But if it please you to scavenge.... be my guest scavenge away.

The truth is, I doubt you have any real idea about the truth contained in 1 Corinthians 13..... something that we will most likely never find out as your modus operandi is to avoid discussing scripture.

Says the guy who just side-stepped 1 cor 13.
O the hypocrisy

I'm owned

 

[cj]

Still unable to deal with the point discussed huh OC.

You really are quite pathetic when it comes to discussing scripture content in truth. And understandably so, bound as you are by religiousity.

Jesus said it Himself...... He came to set us free.

Yet there are those who crave darkness and thus hold dearly to their false religion.

It need not even be said, but I noted it for the sake of order. The Hebrew clearly is 'heaven.' Had they intended on reaching God, it would have said so.

You're still missing the point OC...... what is in heaven that would have caused them to make a name for themselves?

Why is getting to heaven something that can lead someone to believe it can make a name for you?

And what is this "name" they speak of, a reputation of doing something great? Why would they consider reaching heaven to be something great?


Tell me OC...... if God's dwelling place was not heaven do you think these men would have been headed there?


The answer is "No".


And more, to properly understand their mindset, as being one with Satan's mind, lets take a look at the example of Satan's tower building.......

Isaiah 14 : 13....... "But you, you said in your heart: I will ascend to heaven; Above the stars of God I will exalt my throne. And I will sit upon the mount of assembly In the uttermost parts of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

Did you notice the word "heaven" OC..... its the same Hebrew word used in Genesis in reference to the building of the tower.


There is only one reason any want to reach heaven OC, and this reason is simply that it is where God is, His dwelling place. And since the oldest of ages, as scripture tells us, in Satan's mind, being in heaven is what is necessary to be considered God.

The fact is, it is not possible to consider reaching heaven while at the same time not being aware of God...... for God and heaven are in a sense synonymous.


Therefore, when you make statements such as the following....

"Had they intended on reaching God, it would have said so."

...... you expose your ignorance of the truth contained in scripture.

And this ignorance continues to be seen in the rest of your speaking.

Ah CJ, swallowing a camel and squeezing out a gnat- they were seeking a name for themselves. Clue provided free of charge by OC holdings, ltd.

No, just more ignorance displayed.

And thusly it disdains the very words of Christ, with a trite pop culture colloquialism.

Aaahhh OC, if you took the time, perhaps you would notice that the disdain came in the words before and after the words of our Lord, and were a reflection of your speaking useless words while attempting to drop in a scripture here and there to validate your speaking. Much like Satan does.

Again, see if you can follow....... OC speaking is - "Yada, yada, yada..... God of the living not the dead..... Yada, yada, yada.

But I understand your need to twist things. Or maybe it really just was above your head.

God of the living not the deadThe first statement is just unbridled stupidity, a flaccid argument from an impotent intellect.
The second statement makes it clear that Christ needs to illumine your unspiritual mind as He did Martha- for she too was unable to see past the decay of carbon. She, however, was illumined- you remain in utter darkness.

"Whatever man..... you kissed a guy."


OC..... your speaking really has no content worth pursuing, so I'll check you later.


In love,
cj

 

[aiki]

OrthoC:

Their bodies have died. The scripure is clear that they cannot and will not die. They are not dead saints, there is no such thing. I make this distinction because certain people, such as yourself, would like to ignore Christ's promised hope, obscure it, contradict it.

To what "promised hope" are you referring, exactly? We are in agreement that the physical bodies of the saints of the past are dead. What promise does my agreement with you on this point obscure, or contradict?

So you demonstrated that the bible was written to people this side of heaven. Absolutely brilliant- there need be no scripture nor light nor anything else for those who are in His Presence.
What I asked you to provide was eplicit and plain proof that ONLY people on this side should or can pray for us. What you provided is proof that people on this side should do so.
Did you miss the ONLY clause? Or did you simply choose to ignore it?

Nope, didn't miss it. I think the complete absence from Scripture of any explicit inclusion of those who have died from praying for us who still live is proof enough. With your logic it would take more than the word "Ladies" and the figure of a woman on the door to prevent a man from using a woman's washroom. There'd have to be an explicit, posted prohibition against men using the women's washroom. No one I know, though, requires such explicit instructions. It is enough to see that men are not included in the signage on the door to the ladies' washroom for most men to understand that they are excluded from entering.

Does it occur to you that incense does not stay in the bowl? Where do you think the smoke goes as the bowl is placed before the Lamb?

Up, I guess. That's where most smoke usually goes. But, the incense and the smoke that rises from its burning are not one and the same thing. I don't say to someone, "Hey, throw some more smoke on the fire!" No, I say, "Throw some more wood on the fire!" The smoke rises from the burning wood but the wood stays in the fire -- just as the burning incense stays in the bowl. Mind you, the verse in Revelations never says that the incense in the bowl is burning...

So let's cut to the chase: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that the incense flows through the hands of the elders to the Lamb.

No, as you've demonstrated, it just takes a creative imagination!

Burden of proof was and is on the original maker of claim- Aiki-
Now, Aiki can either answer the question or not, but the fallacious and misguided answer Aiki gave is what has been called into question.

You must shoulder some "burden of proof" yourself and establish your claims as well. So far, you've only exhibited a knack for snide remarks and your own brand of "fallacious and misguided" reasoning.

Aiki's position is that we need permission to do what he does not see in the bible. I'm hardly compelled by that imperative.

Oh? Where do I say that, exactly, in such unqualified fashion?

Have you ever had a pleasant exchange with someone who disagreed with you, OrthoC?

In Christ, Aiki.