Orthodox reasoning/Praying to Saints

[BradtheImpaler]

I don't happen to be convinced that it is John the Baptist's head that we possess. I also don't believe the Church's position that Paul wrote the epistle to the Hebrews. Being in communion with is not synonymous with being in lockstep

What about Mary's Girdle ("Soonoro")? You know the one she tossed St. Thomas as she ascended into heaven? Is that the genuine article or not? :

 

[cj]

Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish the polemics of atheists against Christianity at large from the polemics of anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox Fundmanetalists.

Not for the Spirit.

But I understand, it is for those who abide in the flesh.

Then we have the story of Ezekiel lying on one side for months on end, naked as the day he was born, eating and warming over a fire made of human dung

Yes we do..... and its quite a contrast isn't it?

On the dung side you have the man-made religiosity of apostate institutions such as found in the Orthodox synagogue, and of course those who partake of it,..... and then on the opposite side you find the constant seeking, to the best of their ability, of those who are unwilling to trampled underfoot the Son of God and consider the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified a common thing, and thus insult the Spirit of grace?

And the story of the donkey who rebukes the prophet. Or the bears who devoured children for calling the prophet elisha 'cueball.'

And the man of God Gideon who hid in a vat

Or Job who was swallwed by a whale, and Jesus who walked on water. Or phillip who simply was translated from here to there.

Which might have something to do with why they're remembered, even if they did things you cannot believe in.

And yet, Jesus was neither a donkey nor a bear..... just a poor in spirit, mourning, meek, hungry and thirsty, merciful, pure in heart, peacemaking, persecuted for the sake of righteousness, reproached, salt of the earth, light of the world, shining..... normal man.

And Paul instructed us, by the Spirit and speaking for Christ, to do what?

Philippians 2:5, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,..."

As would have been many of the prophets of old, as would have the demon-possessed that the apostles set free. Were they really mentally ill, or do we live in an age of reason which blinds us to the genuine substance of the heavens?

So you say. I'm not sure.
Many Pentecostals are just talking gibberish, and many faith-healers are just using manipulation and mass hysteria. But some of each are not. Maybe lots of them are not. I personally knew George Stormount, who worked and travelled with Smith Wigglesworth. Brother George saw a pair of eyes appear in a child born blind, and saw Wigglesworth pray until a man dead came to life.

Now, I'm no fan of Wigglesworths' theology (Pentecostalism)- but if I've learned one thing, it's that God seems to use the oddballs/goofballs to speak to mankind. As it is written...... Our dedication to Christ makes us look like fools, but you are so wise! We are weak, but you are so powerful! You are well thought of, but we are laughed at

We also know from scripture that Satan is quite capable at preforming his own counterfeit "miracles"; and this is not to take anything away from the saints who have genuinely been used by God,.... just don't hold onto the wrong head.

Paul was not an odd-ball, neither Daniel, nor Abraham, nor John nor Peter,..... nor was Jesus Himself an oddball.

And God used them all.

"Out of the mouths of babes and infants you have perfected praise." Ask yourself how old Samuel was when he came to the Temple, or how old John the Baptist was when he leaped for joy in the presence of Christ.

And yet we have scripture that declares..... "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,...."

The Psalm you referenced also includes the word "sucklings", which would mean that a new-born baby would also be able to give God his or her life.

What ignorance to think this is what the scripture means.

Personally, having grown up in and chafing against the world of "me and Jesus, we got our own thing going," I realized early on that I was part of something that was a lot bigger than me, something timeless and unbound by the rational limits of time and space. Having already come to Christ, I simply embraced in Orthodoxy what I knew to be true already.

"Having..... already..... come to Christ, [/b]I simply embraced[/b].....

Yes Orthodox.... it was you according to your fallen natural man who embraced the apostate religion. As it seems that Christ alone could not fulfill the lusts of your flesh.

Yet praise the Lord that He has declared that all we need is to come to Christ.

I don't see the point over arguing over these things. I believe that when Christ is all in all, this devotion will indeed fall away, and in time the person will see the futility of it all and that it is a waste of time.

When Christ brings this all to conclusion, we will spend eternity as the Church, the Bride of Christ. Some people will need to run and catch up on the concept of "WE".[/quote]

Actually, we will spend eternity as His wife. The bride is a bride for just one day, but a wife is forever.

And you want to tell others about what catching up they need to do.

Your darkness is certainly prevailing Orthodox.

So sez you. Christ says otherwise- I'll take His word.

No Orthodox, Christ tells us the exact opposite, usig Himself as an example.....

Matthew 17:9, "And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is raised.... from the dead."

Revelation  14 : 13, "And I heard a voice out of heaven, saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them.

You seem to be deceived as to what His word truly says.

2000 demons fit inside one possessed man. The spiritual realm is not like the physical realm. According to Christ, the Kingdom is within us. What exact amount of space does a spirit take up?
We live in two dimensions, flat on a piece of paper- they in three dimensions- and thus, from our reference point, they are everywhere. They are where God is, and He is everywhere.
See St Ephraim's commentary on the Genasserene Demonaic (Markan gospel) for further clarification.

Put on yur boots boys...... What foolishness is coming forth.....

No Orthodox, the scriptures tell us that they abide under the earth, in Abraham's bosom, symbolized by the phrase "under the altar", as seen in Revelation 6 : 9....

"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw....underneath the altar.... the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had."

This "altar" is the altar of burnt offerings. This altar is in the outer court of the tabernacle and the temple, and the outer court signifies the earth. Hence, the area underneath the altar is the region underneath the earth, where the souls of the martyred saints are. It is the Paradise to which the Lord Jesus went after His death (Luke 23:43). It is in the heart of the earth (Matt. 12:40) and is a section of Hades (Acts 2:27), the comfortable section, where Abraham is (Luke 16:22-26).

...... and their blissful state of having all the answers holds no appeal to me.

And so goes the attitude of the rich one, the Laodician, he who declares "I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing," yet does not know that he is really "wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,..."


But fear not..... the Lord knows.

In love,
cj

 

[cj]

We're learning more and more about your ego everyday 8-)

Brad..... how high did the Babylonians think they could build their tower?

Different era, same spirit.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I said, and I quote "show me where I have used the phrase "pray to" on this forum" which you failed to do. I then explained what is said in the liturgy, and expanded on why this is in my last post (Elizabethan English)
Now stop whining

Do you want the quote in another language? I only have it in english, so here it is again -

"Now, internally, we say 'pray to' saint"

This statement appears on THIS FORUM. The "we", in context, refers to the Orthodox Church and YOU.

In the process of expanding on why this expression is used, as I said. We've been over this, and all you have left is to quibble over he said/he said.

Even if I had used the phrase, it wouldn't change how it is I/We pray or to whom, in the ultimate sense. But you are not concerned with what we mean- ie, understanding us- but are rather interested in distorting our meaning- ie, seeking to injure us.

I expect this from Fundamentalists, and respond accordingly.

You DID use the phrase, and it WAS an admission that was influenced by my bringing to light quotes from Orthodox sources stating that they DO advocate praying to saints (however flexible your definition of "prayer" becomes when you're "inbetween a rock and a hard place")

As I stated before, and you've roundly demonstrated, you are interested in nothing more and nothing less than arguing semantics. We've moved on.
I am keeping in mind that you have no interest in discussion whatsoever- you are a poor flamer, easy to own, no down payment, but this is tedious to me.

(BTW - speaking of "whining", I hope you didn't tell your mommy that I am not concerned with understanding you but only in "injuring" you with my bad bad words? :roll

Yer mama insults are so Usenet/ 1997. TLTBW (too lame to bother with)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish the polemics of atheists against Christianity at large from the polemics of anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox Fundmanetalists.

Not for the Spirit.

But I understand, it is for those who abide in the flesh.

So you acknowledge that you use essentially the same argument as atheists.

Then we have the story of Ezekiel lying on one side for months on end, naked as the day he was born, eating and warming over a fire made of human dung

Yes we do..... and its quite a contrast isn't it?

On the dung side you have the man-made religiosity of apostate institutions such as found in the Orthodox synagogue, and of course those who partake of it,..... and then on the opposite side you find the constant seeking, to the best of their ability, of those who are unwilling to trampled underfoot the Son of God and consider the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified a common thing, and thus insult the Spirit of grace?

That was pretty much gibberish, but I did pick up on the fact that you were attempting again to elevate self. You project hate in the guise of spiritual purity, just as does Reverend Phelps. In Phelp's favor, he can string together a coherent polemic.

And the story of the donkey who rebukes the prophet. Or the bears who devoured children for calling the prophet elisha 'cueball.'

And the man of God Gideon who hid in a vat

Or Job who was swallwed by a whale, and Jesus who walked on water. Or phillip who simply was translated from here to there.

Which might have something to do with why they're remembered, even if they did things you cannot believe in.

And yet, Jesus was neither a donkey nor a bear..... just a poor in spirit, mourning, meek, hungry and thirsty, merciful, pure in heart, peacemaking, persecuted for the sake of righteousness, reproached, salt of the earth, light of the world, shining..... normal man.

And Paul instructed us, by the Spirit and speaking for Christ, to do what?

Philippians 2:5, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus,..."

This Jesus who spit in the dirt and rubbed it in a man's eye, this Jesus who eschewed a perfectly good boat but chose to walk on the water, this Jesus employed women in His ministry- yet you say He was normal. Normal for a mystic/prophet, sure, normal for a carpenter, not.

As would have been many of the prophets of old, as would have the demon-possessed that the apostles set free. Were they really mentally ill, or do we live in an age of reason which blinds us to the genuine substance of the heavens?

So you say. I'm not sure.
Many Pentecostals are just talking gibberish, and many faith-healers are just using manipulation and mass hysteria. But some of each are not. Maybe lots of them are not. I personally knew George Stormount, who worked and travelled with Smith Wigglesworth. Brother George saw a pair of eyes appear in a child born blind, and saw Wigglesworth pray until a man dead came to life.

Now, I'm no fan of Wigglesworths' theology (Pentecostalism)- but if I've learned one thing, it's that God seems to use the oddballs/goofballs to speak to mankind. As it is written...... Our dedication to Christ makes us look like fools, but you are so wise! We are weak, but you are so powerful! You are well thought of, but we are laughed at

We also know from scripture that Satan is quite capable at preforming his own counterfeit "miracles"; and this is not to take anything away from the saints who have genuinely been used by God,.... just don't hold onto the wrong head.

Your need to argue, bite and devour is being manifest in your inability to even follow the most rudimentary of points. Here you spend several paragraphs claiming that there were no eccentrics in God's employ.

Paul was not an odd-ball, neither Daniel, nor Abraham, nor John nor Peter,..... nor was Jesus Himself an oddball.

And God used them all.

The argument was not that everyone God ever used was an oddball- the argument was that those who seem foolish to the world are often they whom God is using to shame the wisdom of men. Ordinarily, you would agree with this, but because it is me saying it, your hatred and resentment impel you to argue and to take potshots, as we shall see....

"Out of the mouths of babes and infants you have perfected praise." Ask yourself how old Samuel was when he came to the Temple, or how old John the Baptist was when he leaped for joy in the presence of Christ.

And yet we have scripture that declares..... "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,...."

Total non-sequitur.

The Psalm you referenced also includes the word "sucklings", which would mean that a new-born baby would also be able to give God his or her life.

What ignorance to think this is what the scripture means.

In Matt 21, the complaint was that the children were crying out "Hosanna to the Son of David." (verse 15). This angered the scribes and priests, and Jesus answered them, saying "Out of the mouths of
nepion kai thelazonton (children and sucklings) thou hast perfected praise. These were children who were old enough to speak, and old enough to recognize the hour of their visitation.

Personally, having grown up in and chafing against the world of "me and Jesus, we got our own thing going," I realized early on that I was part of something that was a lot bigger than me, something timeless and unbound by the rational limits of time and space. Having already come to Christ, I simply embraced in Orthodoxy what I knew to be true already.

"Having..... already..... come to Christ, [/b]I simply embraced[/b].....

Yes Orthodox.... it was you according to your fallen natural man who embraced the apostate religion. As it seems that Christ alone could not fulfill the lusts of your flesh.

Christ is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega. It is apparent to me that both you and I have lusts of the flesh that have manifest on this forum, for I have allowed myself to reply to you in the manner that I have been spoken to. I can do nothing about your manifestations, but I can deal with mine.

Put on yur boots boys...... What foolishness is coming forth.....

How that is not considered flaming, I'll never know. Not good flaming, just flaming.

No Orthodox, the scriptures tell us that they abide under the earth, in Abraham's bosom, symbolized by the phrase "under the altar", as seen in Revelation 6 : 9....

"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw....underneath the altar.... the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had."

This "altar" is the altar of burnt offerings. This altar is in the outer court of the tabernacle and the temple, and the outer court signifies the earth. Hence, the area underneath the altar is the region underneath the earth, where the souls of the martyred saints are. It is the Paradise to which the Lord Jesus went after His death (Luke 23:43). It is in the heart of the earth (Matt. 12:40) and is a section of Hades (Acts 2:27), the comfortable section, where Abraham is (Luke 16:22-26).

Spare me the mythology and the soul sleep heresy.

...... and their blissful state of having all the answers holds no appeal to me.

And so goes the attitude of the rich one, the Laodician, he who declares "I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing," yet does not know that he is really "wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,..."

Naked? Me? No, on the contrary I am clothed in your love.

 

[cj]

Naked? Me? No, on the contrary I am clothed in your love.

'Fraid not Orthodox..... my love is not good for clothing. But the Lord's is.

Yet, you missed the point... again.

So you acknowledge that you use essentially the same argument as atheists.

I acknowledge that you don't understand much of the truth contained in scripture..... hope that helps you be more clear.

That was pretty much gibberish, but I did pick up on the fact that you were attempting again to elevate self. You project hate in the guise of spiritual purity, just as does Reverend Phelps. In Phelp's favor, he can string together a coherent polemic.

Is Reverend Phelps of the Orthodox institution also?

And yes, it was not easy for the Israelites to understand Ezekiel's actions either.

This Jesus who spit in the dirt and rubbed it in a man's eye, this Jesus who eschewed a perfectly good boat but chose to walk on the water, this Jesus employed women in His ministry- yet you say He was normal. Normal for a mystic/prophet, sure, normal for a carpenter, not.

So, you are saying that the actions of these post-Jesus-walking-on-the-earth-days folk all have very deep meaning.... such as the very deep symbolic meaning that is hidden in Jesus' actions of spitting in the dirt, and His walking on the water...... what I believe you are saying is that all these seeming oddball actions of people expressed deep symbolic truths'

Is this what you're saying Orthodox.... cause I'd really like to know if you equate the actions of these oddball believers to the actions of Christ.

Actually, I think all on this forum are interested in your answer.

Your need to argue, bite and devour is being manifest in your inability to even follow the most rudimentary of points. Here you spend several paragraphs claiming that there were no eccentrics in God's employ.

No, that is not at all what I said...... my point was simply that God always has purpose in His expression.

But, again i eagerly await your answer to my question above.

Do you equate the actions of these oddball believers to the actions of Jesus?

The argument was not that everyone God ever used was an oddball- the argument was that those who seem foolish to the world are often they whom God is using to shame the wisdom of men. Ordinarily, you would agree with this, but because it is me saying it, your hatred and resentment impel you to argue and to take potshots, as we shall see....

I would absolutely agree with what scripture says, that God uses what seems foolish to the world, to put the wise to shame.

But this does not give foolishness a license to run rampant.

For instance..... the foolishness of praying to the dead saints. The foolishness of building hugh ornate meeting halls. The foolishness of wearing silly robes and jewelry. Etc., etc...

Where in scripture does it say that from God flows foolishness that He may be upheld by such?

Does foolishness come from God? Of course not. God will use the foolishness of men to bring glory to Himself, by showing that His wisdom is able to turn that which was meant for evil into good.

What can be added to God by having blood flow out of a believer's hand?

Nothing.

Yet you worship this "nothing" by adorning it with glory.

Yet, God will even bring good out of this foolishness.

God Himself flows into our regenerated spirit as life, and this life flows into our heart as the transforming and conforming virtue.... that we may live out God from our being.

Ain't nothing foolish coming out of our regenerated spirt Orthodox.

And if it ain't out of our regenerated spirit, then it is just the old fallen man being expressed.



Now, to a study of scripture, shall we go......

In Matt 21, the complaint was that the children were crying out "Hosanna to the Son of David." (verse 15). This angered the scribes and priests, and Jesus answered them, saying "Out of the mouths of nepion kai thelazonton (children and sucklings) thou hast perfected praise........ These were children who were old enough to speak, and old enough to recognize the hour of their visitation.

Good,..... please note your concluding statement, as it exposes your ignorance of the truth contained in these scripture verses.

The fact is, so were the adults also old enough to, in your own words, "speak, and.... recognize the hour of their visitation."

Yet, these very same adults, who by the way were also shouting "Hosanna to the Son of David." (see previous verses), and thus were most possibly the pattern that the younger ones followed, these adults were some of who later cried "Crucify Him."

Additionally, make note of their cry..... "Son of David"..... as Christ was certainly much more than just David's son. Christ was/is Emmanuel, God with us.

Funny, one would think that perfected minds praising in perfection, should have at least been crying "Emmanuel, Emmanuel,..... We are saved, God is with us!"

Or even cried "Son of God."

But they weren't, because they were looking at Jesus in His humanity only. And why? Because they only had half the story that scripture reveals.

So just whatt did Jesus mean when He used the quotation from the Psalms?

Why were these people unable to see the whole truth? Was it not the job of the priests to teach the people? Yet, did the people know God at the "time of their visitation?"

It would seem not?

Yet the people gave according to the little they knew, babes and sucklings that they were.... but the Pharisees, they became indignant,.... and it is to this indignance that Jesus responded.

Let's read the verse again... "This angered the scribes and priests, and Jesus answered them, saying..."

Jesus' words were to the scribes and priest, a direct rebuke to those who believed they had great knowledge, and thus had become offended by the words of the "babes and sucklings", since they themselves (the scribes and priests) were not leading the cry as they thought it should be.

The "perfection" Jesus was speaking of is seen in the rejection of the people, of the corrupt Jewish leaders.

All the people who were crying out, adults and children, those who Jesus referred to as "babes and sucklings" (since spiritually they were. And God is spirit, and thus speaks according to spiritual things) were absolutely rejecting the corrupt Jewish leadership.... and in this is seen perfect praise.

The fact is, the scene is set in the verses that came before, the verses that spoke of..... "And He said to them, It is written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer,'' but you are making it a den of robbers."

"A den of robbers" were rebuked when the words" Hosanna, Son of David" were shouted out by "babes and sucklings", by spiritually young and weak believers.


And there is even more..... because in the last part of the previous chapter we see Jesus revealing the process by which we come to know the truth..... by the opening of our eyes. Our inward eyes.


So Orthodox, yet again, as revealed by your own words, we see that you know little about the truth contained in scriptures.

Christ is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega. It is apparent to me that both you and I have lusts of the flesh that have manifest on this forum, for I have allowed myself to reply to you in the manner that I have been spoken to. I can do nothing about your manifestations, but I can deal with mine.

Isn't it shameful that you would attemp to put forward a humble face and yet subtly throw the blame my way......

.... for I have allowed myself to reply to you in the manner that I have been spoken to.

Ohhh Orthodox, is it not obvious to you.

How that is not considered flaming, I'll never know. Not good flaming, just flaming.

I'm not flaming, I speaking it as it is.

Most of what you speak is no better than refuse.

Spare me the mythology and the soul sleep heresy.

Darkness expressed in its rejection of light.

Perhaps instead of a nothing response, we could get something more out of you regarding why you think what I said is mythology and soul-sleep heresy.

If you are able that is.



In love,
cj

 

[Steve]

These converts to Orthodoxy think they're more Orthodox than the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. Take everything with a grain of salt, cuz eventually(hopefully) they will become more centrist.

What's funny is how these ex-Baptists and ex-Methodists become more Russian(or Greek) as the days pass by. We had a custom in Seminary of decorating our doors with some kind of pious whatever; an icon, a cross, or whatever. I put a little spiritual maxim holy card from the All Saints Sisters of the Poor on my door. I well remember two seminarians passing by and looking at it. One was a former Baptist, the other an ex-Lutheran.
"Ewww, how WESTERN," said one. "Disgusting," said the other.

So, with Orthodoxy comes a spirit of elitism. They are IT, folks. Rome is heterodox. Anything but 'holy' Orthodoxy is heterodox. And if you oppose anything in Orthodoxy, then you're also against their ethnicity as well. And there is NOTHING on the face of the earth more obnoxious than a convert to Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. They have ARRIVED.

We just don't know where, though.

 

[cj]

And there is NOTHING on the face of the earth more obnoxious than a convert to Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. They have ARRIVED.

We just don't know where, though.

Rest assured that paul told us.....

2 Timothy 4:10, "For Demas has abandoned me, having loved the present age, and has gone to Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia; Titus to Dalmatia."

".... having loved the present age,"

And what is this "present age?"

1 Timothy  6 : 17, "Charge those who are rich in the present age not to be high-minded, nor to set their hope on..... the uncertainty of riches.... but on God, who affords us all things richly for our enjoyment;"

What are these "riches?"

Ever considered why God uses the word "riches" so much when speaking of what He is and can be to us?

The battle defines one man's riches as....... mammon or godliness?

Name me two very mammon-rich religious instituitions within Christianity.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Naked? Me? No, on the contrary I am clothed in your love.

'Fraid not Orthodox..... my love is not good for clothing. But the Lord's is.

Yet, you missed the point... again.

We shall never know if your love is good for clothing, or anything else.

So you acknowledge that you use essentially the same argument as atheists.

I acknowledge that you don't understand much of the truth contained in scripture..... hope that helps you be more clear.

You don't acknowledge this- you believe this to be so. Thankfully, I'm not saved by either your opinion or my knowledge.

Then we have the story of Ezekiel lying on one side for months on end, naked as the day he was born, eating and warming over a fire made of human dung

Yes we do..... and its quite a contrast isn't it?

On the dung side you have the man-made religiosity of apostate institutions such as found in the Orthodox synagogue, and of course those who partake of it,..... and then on the opposite side you find the constant seeking, to the best of their ability, of those who are unwilling to trampled underfoot the Son of God and consider the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified a common thing, and thus insult the Spirit of grace?

That was pretty much gibberish, but I did pick up on the fact that you were attempting again to elevate self. You project hate in the guise of spiritual purity, just as does Reverend Phelps. In Phelp's favor, he can string together a coherent polemic.

Is Reverend Phelps of the Orthodox institution also?[/quote]
Actually, no, Reverend Phelps is not an eastern Orthodox Christian. He, like you, rejects the 'institutional church' and claims that he speaks truth in love.

This Jesus who spit in the dirt and rubbed it in a man's eye, this Jesus who eschewed a perfectly good boat but chose to walk on the water, this Jesus employed women in His ministry- yet you say He was normal. Normal for a mystic/prophet, sure, normal for a carpenter, not.

So, you are saying that the actions of these post-Jesus-walking-on-the-earth-days folk all have very deep meaning.... such as the very deep symbolic meaning that is hidden in Jesus' actions of spitting in the dirt, and His walking on the water...... what I believe you are saying is that all these seeming oddball actions of people expressed deep symbolic truths'

Is this what you're saying Orthodox.... cause I'd really like to know if you equate the actions of these oddball believers to the actions of Christ.

Actually, I think all on this forum are interested in your answer.

Grandstand much?
A tree is known by its fruit, not its appearance, CJ.
Likewise, the tares appear to be wheat.

Your need to argue, bite and devour is being manifest in your inability to even follow the most rudimentary of points. Here you spend several paragraphs claiming that there were no eccentrics in God's employ.

No, that is not at all what I said...... my point was simply that God always has purpose in His expression.

But, again i eagerly await your answer to my question above.

Do you equate the actions of these oddball believers to the actions of Jesus?

And you have had your answer- a tree is known by its fruit.

The argument was not that everyone God ever used was an oddball- the argument was that those who seem foolish to the world are often they whom God is using to shame the wisdom of men. Ordinarily, you would agree with this, but because it is me saying it, your hatred and resentment impel you to argue and to take potshots, as we shall see....

I would absolutely agree with what scripture says, that God uses what seems foolish to the world, to put the wise to shame.

But this does not give foolishness a license to run rampant.

For instance..... the foolishness of praying to the dead saints. The foolishness of building hugh ornate meeting halls. The foolishness of wearing silly robes and jewelry. Etc., etc...

That statement, like many you have made in the last 24 hours, is disconnected, ambiguous, and tangential.

It's amazing what hatred does to undermine mental discipline.

It may come as some surprise to you that the oddballs among the Orthodox- and the oddballs among the Protestants- folks like Rich Mullins- care much more about what God thinks about them than they do about what the carnal, judgemental, and pharasaical think about them. In other words, your opinion i worth somewhat less than the paper it is not recorded upon.

For a quick survey of ornate meeting halls and funny clothes, read the instructions for the Tabernacle and the Temple. Since there are no dead saints, we shall leave you to bark up that tree.

Where in scripture does it say that from God flows foolishness that He may be upheld by such?

Does foolishness come from God? Of course not. God will use the foolishness of men to bring glory to Himself, by showing that His wisdom is able to turn that which was meant for evil into good.

And you attempt to teach here :roll:
It was God who instructed Ezekiel to pray as he did; it was God who instructed Israel to walk around a wall seven times and blow shofar; it was God had Israelites stare at a statue of a snake to get healed, it was God who came down in full humility as a man.
Oti to moron to Theou sophoteron ton anthropon
The foolishness of God is superior to the sophistry of men. You keep on with the sophistry, and I'll laugh.

What can be added to God by having blood flow out of a believer's hand?

Nothing.

Yet you worship this "nothing" by adorning it with glory.

Christianity and Judaism have always had the mystics and the pragmatists. Both are needed. One out of balance with the other makes for apostasy. Alexandria needs Antioch, and vice-versa.

Yet, God will even bring good out of this foolishness.

Whatever- your assurance of what God will or won't do has the real cash value of Confederate currency.

God Himself flows into our regenerated spirit as life, and this life flows into our heart as the transforming and conforming virtue.... that we may live out God from our being.

Ain't nothing foolish coming out of our regenerated spirt Orthodox.

Double negative couched in quaint colloquialism, paired with grandstand and empty rhetoric.
Reading you is like eating a sandwich made of cardboard and dust bunnies.

Now, to a study of scripture, shall we go......

In Matt 21, the complaint was that the children were crying out "Hosanna to the Son of David." (verse 15). This angered the scribes and priests, and Jesus answered them, saying "Out of the mouths of nepion kai thelazonton (children and sucklings) thou hast perfected praise........ These were children who were old enough to speak, and old enough to recognize the hour of their visitation.

Good,..... please note your concluding statement, as it exposes your ignorance of the truth contained in these scripture verses.

The fact is, so were the adults also old enough to, in your own words, "speak, and.... recognize the hour of their visitation."

Yet, these very same adults, who by the way were also shouting "Hosanna to the Son of David." (see previous verses), and thus were most possibly the pattern that the younger ones followed, these adults were some of who later cried "Crucify Him."

Additionally, make note of their cry..... "Son of David"..... as Christ was certainly much more than just David's son. Christ was/is Emmanuel, God with us.

Funny, one would think that perfected minds praising in perfection, should have at least been crying "Emmanuel, Emmanuel,..... We are saved, God is with us!"

Or even cried "Son of God."

But they weren't, because they were looking at Jesus in His humanity only. And why? Because they only had half the story that scripture reveals.

So just whatt did Jesus mean when He used the quotation from the Psalms?

Why were these people unable to see the whole truth? Was it not the job of the priests to teach the people? Yet, did the people know God at the "time of their visitation?"

It would seem not?

Yet the people gave according to the little they knew, babes and sucklings that they were.... but the Pharisees, they became indignant,.... and it is to this indignance that Jesus responded.

Let's read the verse again... "This angered the scribes and priests, and Jesus answered them, saying..."

Jesus' words were to the scribes and priest, a direct rebuke to those who believed they had great knowledge, and thus had become offended by the words of the "babes and sucklings", since they themselves (the scribes and priests) were not leading the cry as they thought it should be.

The "perfection" Jesus was speaking of is seen in the rejection of the people, of the corrupt Jewish leaders.

All the people who were crying out, adults and children, those who Jesus referred to as "babes and sucklings" (since spiritually they were. And God is spirit, and thus speaks according to spiritual things) were absolutely rejecting the corrupt Jewish leadership.... and in this is seen perfect praise.

The fact is, the scene is set in the verses that came before, the verses that spoke of..... "And He said to them, It is written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer,'' but you are making it a den of robbers."

"A den of robbers" were rebuked when the words" Hosanna, Son of David" were shouted out by "babes and sucklings", by spiritually young and weak believers.


And there is even more..... because in the last part of the previous chapter we see Jesus revealing the process by which we come to know the truth..... by the opening of our eyes. Our inward eyes.


So Orthodox, yet again, as revealed by your own words, we see that you know little about the truth contained in scriptures.

That was quite a load of rubbish. The scripture is abundantly clear as to who was crying out (children). Constructing/fabricating some other allegorical meaning from what is plain, simple and true is an exercise in futility.

That being said, your ignorance of the meaning of the term 'Son of David' is surprising, even given the generalized ignorance you have demonstrated regarding simple translation of Greek and so forth. The Messiah was known as Son of David, and the throne of David is forevermore occupied by Messiah. as it is written

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

Pleased Jesus was that standing in the place of the money changers who were INDEED repeateing what they had heard. Imagine that- children giving correct praise by listening to their fathers. Sounds a great deal like God's plan as laid out in Deuteronomy.

Christ is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega. It is apparent to me that both you and I have lusts of the flesh that have manifest on this forum, for I have allowed myself to reply to you in the manner that I have been spoken to. I can do nothing about your manifestations, but I can deal with mine.

Isn't it shameful that you would attemp to put forward a humble face and yet subtly throw the blame my way......

I take responsibility for my own actions. If you had any humility, what I did in terms of blame or not would mean nothing to you.

How that is not considered flaming, I'll never know. Not good flaming, just flaming.

I'm not flaming, I speaking it as it is.

Most of what you speak is no better than refuse.

This is what is known as an ad hominem (attack the man) argument. It is no replacement for a genuine and specific argument. Further, it is disallowed from most forums, but we've been over that before.

 

[cj]

And yet again Orthodox, you really have said nothing.

Grandstand much?
A tree is known by its fruit, not its appearance, CJ.
Likewise, the tares appear to be wheat.

Nothing.

That statement, like many you have made in the last 24 hours, is disconnected, ambiguous, and tangential.

It's amazing what hatred does to undermine mental discipline.

It may come as some surprise to you that the oddballs among the Orthodox- and the oddballs among the Protestants- folks like Rich Mullins- care much more about what God thinks about them than they do about what the carnal, judgemental, and pharasaical think about them. In other words, your opinion i worth somewhat less than the paper it is not recorded upon.

More nothing.

For a quick survey of ornate meeting halls and funny clothes, read the instructions for the Tabernacle and the Temple. Since there are no dead saints, we shall leave you to bark up that tree.

You mean those given by God Himself.... the instructions that symbolised the very Christ we now have living in us?

Silly fellow...... the riches of God, as seen in the entire environment of the Tabernacle of God, is now within us.

Right here in these words you once more expose your ignorance.

The ornate foolishness of the Orthodox institution has no reality. Its all just vanity.

And you would be so bold as to draw a comparison between this wicked counterfeit and the pattern/symbol that God gave. My poor fellow.

And you attempt to teach here :roll:
It was God who instructed Ezekiel to pray as he did; it was God who instructed Israel to walk around a wall seven times and blow shofar; it was God had Israelites stare at a statue of a snake to get healed, it was God who came down in full humility as a man.
Oti to moron to Theou sophoteron ton anthropon
The foolishness of God is superior to the sophistry of men. You keep on with the sophistry, and I'll laugh.

Laugh all you want..... there is a good reason why the saying goes "he who laughs last...."

Christianity and Judaism have always had the mystics and the pragmatists. Both are needed. One out of balance with the other makes for apostasy. Alexandria needs Antioch, and vice-versa.

Oh,... I thought that only Christ was who is needed.

Double negative couched in quaint colloquialism, paired with grandstand and empty rhetoric.
Reading you is like eating a sandwich made of cardboard and dust bunnies.

Maybe that's the problem..... to many dust bunny sandwiches on your part.... apostate Orthodox religious dust bunny sandwiches.

Constructing/fabricating some other allegorical meaning from what is plain, simple and true is an exercise in futility.

That being said, your ignorance of the meaning of the term 'Son of David' is surprising, even given the generalized ignorance you have demonstrated regarding simple translation of Greek and so forth. The Messiah was known as Son of David, and the throne of David is forevermore occupied by Messiah. as it is written

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

So you are saying that these Jews were fully convinced that God had come to them, and this is why they called out "Son of David"........ really Orthodox, are you that dim on scripture?

Pleased Jesus was that standing in the place of the money changers who were INDEED repeateing what they had heard. Imagine that- children giving correct praise by listening to their fathers. Sounds a great deal like God's plan as laid out in Deuteronomy.

You have responded with another nothing response..... what's your point?

I take responsibility for my own actions. If you had any humility, what I did in terms of blame or not would mean nothing to you.

It means nothing, but in it I can certainly see something. Which is what i pointed out to you, and which you have not denied.

This is what is known as an ad hominem (attack the man) argument. It is no replacement for a genuine and specific argument. Further, it is disallowed from most forums, but we've been over that before.

We're all waiting on you to become genuine and specific in this discussion Orthodox.

So far all that you've brought to the table is a lot of nothing.

In love,
cj

PS - I am always open to discuss very specifically all the scriptures, as I believe most here are.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I said, and I quote "show me where I have used the phrase "pray to" on this forum" which you failed to do. I then explained what is said in the liturgy, and expanded on why this is in my last post (Elizabethan English)
Now stop whining

Do you want the quote in another language? I only have it in english, so here it is again -

"Now, internally, we say 'pray to' saint"

This statement appears on THIS FORUM. The "we", in context, refers to the Orthodox Church and YOU.

[quote:f5632]In the process of expanding on why this expression is used, as I said. We've been over this, and all you have left is to quibble over he said/he said

[/quote:f5632]

I understand it is exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, that you could ever actually ADMIT to an error, so I'll accept this veiled concession as the closest thing to it :fadein:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

These converts to Orthodoxy think they're more Orthodox than the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. Take everything with a grain of salt, cuz eventually(hopefully) they will become more centrist.

This is what I had written not 6 days ago on this thread

I don't happen to be convinced that it is John the Baptist's head that we possess. I also don't believe the Church's position that Paul wrote the epistle to the Hebrews. Being in communion with is not synonymous with being in lockstep

This hardly qualifies me as a fundamentalist Orthodox, Rocor, or even a strict conservative. But you looked past that, as you looked past my commentary on my continued relations within the Evangelical world. And why? Because, Steve, you are using this thread as a pulpit to address your rejection and resentment toward the people who hurt and, perhaps, mistreated you. As unfrtunate as your experience is/was, it doesn't serve as a watermark as to what is happening in Orthodox parishes, and certainly not in my mind and heart.

What's funny is how these ex-Baptists and ex-Methodists become more Russian(or Greek) as the days pass by. We had a custom in Seminary of decorating our doors with some kind of pious whatever; an icon, a cross, or whatever. I put a little spiritual maxim holy card from the All Saints Sisters of the Poor on my door. I well remember two seminarians passing by and looking at it. One was a former Baptist, the other an ex-Lutheran.
"Ewww, how WESTERN," said one. "Disgusting," said the other.

And then you have former Catholics who bristle at everything vaguely resembling Rome. Every group has its moderates and its extremes.

So, with Orthodoxy comes a spirit of elitism. They are IT, folks.

Any Othodox who is elitist has missed the point- we are what we are, and believe what we believe, not on the basis of our brilliant reading of text, or deep spiritual experiences, but because of the faith of Christ, and the faithfulness of our fathers and mothers.

If you read elitism in my sharp responses on this thread, you fail to recognize that my responses are in response to attacks. I defend Orthodox faith, not OC.

For this, I will be accused of not thinking for myself.

Rome is heterodox. Anything but 'holy' Orthodoxy is heterodox. And if you oppose anything in Orthodoxy, then you're also against their ethnicity as well.

There are Orthodox who hold this to be true. Most, however, do not. Most are looking forward to the resumption of communion with Rome, which we have taken great strides toward in recent years.

I see the Catholic as my brother, as I do the Protestant. Those who I do not see as brethren are those who attack us, attack Rome, attack the unbelievers, atatack, attack. There are those who have frequent this thread who I visualize in headbands with Tora!Tora!Tora! emblazoned on the front.

I do not see them as my brothers because they proclaim that they are not.

And there is NOTHING on the face of the earth more obnoxious than a convert to Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. They have ARRIVED.

I don't know Steve, this kind of generalization makes it pretty clear that you indeed have failed to take to heart "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."

I truly am sorrowful that you experienced orthodoxy as you did. I have experienced both warmth and rejection in Evangelicalism and the Orthodox church. That's just life.

We just don't know where, though.

Perspective is a funny thing. From where I stand, I see non-stop self-righteous, venomous attacks against Catholics and Orthodox on this forum, coupled with assurances that WE are elitist and uppity. The irony is lost forevermore in the ether.

 

[Steve]

You are correct in one thing, though: I have no idea whatsoever what is going on in Orthodox parishes, as I have not set foot in an Orthodox Church since around 1990.

I always got a laugh out of the super-Russians even when I was in. You must admit, that's kinda going 'whole hog,' isn't it? Some people feel that it's evidently not enought o convert to Orthodoxy. They have to adopt the ethnicity, also,

I question that as well. I really don't care one iota what is going on in Orthodoxy.

 

[Gary]

Steve: Location-In a Sweat-Shop on the Lower East Side.


LOL with Steve. You are VERY funny!! :

 

[Orthodox Christian]

You are correct in one thing, though: I have no idea whatsoever what is going on in Orthodox parishes, as I have not set foot in an Orthodox Church since around 1990.

I always got a laugh out of the super-Russians even when I was in. You must admit, that's kinda going 'whole hog,' isn't it? Some people feel that it's evidently not enought o convert to Orthodoxy. They have to adopt the ethnicity, also,

No doubt about it- identifying oneself ethnically with a Church is missing the point. Sure, it's fun to go to Greek fest, and it's handy to know how to make small talk with the oldtimers in their own native tongue, but faith is not Latin, or Greek, or Jewish. There are some people who are attracted to Charismatic churches because of the event, the giddiness, the rock music- they too miss the point. On the other hand, some people truly find God in their Charismatic congregation, they find God and they find the community of God. Each person must weigh for themself, by the dictate of conscience and the leading of the Spirit, as one best understands such leading, where they belong.

In Charismatic churches, people imitate each other's hand raising and language. It is the same with Orthodox converts, with the same benign aspects and the same true potential pitfalls.

I question that as well. I really don't care one iota what is going on in Orthodoxy.

I know how you feel- I have no concern as to what is happening among Evangelicals- yet I find out, because I have and make friends with Evangelicals- and I got over my offense with the people who harmed me in my time in the Evangelical world.

And I wish them to be blessed- but their form of worship has no appeal to me at all, personally.

 

[cj]

...... with the same benign aspects and the same true potential pitfalls.

And here we find the folly of the deception, for there is no "potential pitfall" in Christ.

Orthodox, Christ is very clear in His speaking to the seven churches that there is the opportubity to overcome regardless of the negative existing situation within the church.

There will be overcomers from within the Roman institution, there will be overcomers from within the Baptist institution, the Pentecostal institution, and so on..... but no one of these institutions is the expressed body of Christ on the earth today, for Christ has no potential pitfall. And His body is simply Himself lived out of vessels.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

...... with the same benign aspects and the same true potential pitfalls.

And here we find the folly of the deception, for there is no "potential pitfall" in Christ.

You are incorrect...the Lord's prayer instructs us to pray "lead US not into temptation, but deliver US from the evil one." We all may- no, will stumble while walking around in this clay vessel.

The 'folly of deception' of which you speak is nothing more than a category error on your part. He is perfect, and we are part of Him, and we are imperfect. Our imperfection is swallowed up in His perfection, but there is no denying the potential for straying in all of us. Since "all of us" includes those who are in Christ, I can see no merit to your disagreement.

Orthodox, Christ is very clear in His speaking to the seven churches that there is the opportubity to overcome regardless of the negative existing situation within the church.

Yes, funny you should mention that, Jesus deals with the strengths and pitfalls of all 7 regions. He was addressing real, worshipping communities, and each had troubles and triumphs.

There will be overcomers from within the Roman institution, there will be overcomers from within the Baptist institution, the Pentecostal institution, and so on..... but no one of these institutions is the expressed body of Christ on the earth today, for Christ has no potential pitfall. And His body is simply Himself lived out of vessels.

Again you have a striking logical error. Because you do not see a perfect Body, you assume that there is no expressed body. We each are, according to the Apostle, living epistles. Are we then expressed epistles, or perfect epistles?

The Body is being built, according to Paul, knitted together until we all grow up into Christ. The imagery Paul uses in Ephesians is reminiscent of Psalm 139 and the knitting together of each human. Whether one accepts a contextualized or literal understanding of the Church of Christ depends on their understanding of text.

But that's not what my reply to Steve was about, and I won't get drawn out into further conflicts regarding the Orthodox Church- or the Pentecostals, for that matter. There is dialogue that builds the Body, and there is dialogue that tears it down. I've returned to and will be sticking with the former.

Thanks
OC

 

[Steve]

Steve: Location-In a Sweat-Shop on the Lower East Side.


LOL with Steve. You are VERY funny!! :

Hi Gar.
I try. I missed one of my callings: a Borsht-belt comedian. :-D

 

[cj]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":58a2b]...... with the same benign aspects and the same true potential pitfalls.

And here we find the folly of the deception, for there is no "potential pitfall" in Christ.

You are incorrect...[/quote:58a2b]

No, you are.

:roll:

the Lord's prayer instructs us to pray "lead US not into temptation, but deliver US from the evil one." We all may- no, will stumble while walking around in this clay vessel.

The way of the serpent in the garden..... Orthodo, I did not say we won't make mistakes. [Edited for personal attack]
I said,

"... the folly of the deception, for there is no "potential pitfall" in Christ."

I did not say that we won't stumble.

But what you are saying is that within the system is the pitfall.

Can you see the difference Orthodox? Your words tell the truth of the apostate state of the institution of Christianity....... a man-made, pitfall ridden, Babylonian sourced, false religion.

"Pit"-fall is a great word to use in describing what you serve.

The 'folly of deception' of which you speak is nothing more than a category error on your part. He is perfect, and we are part of Him, and we are imperfect. Our imperfection is swallowed up in His perfection, but there is no denying the potential for straying in all of us. Since "all of us" includes those who are in Christ, I can see no merit to your disagreement.

There is nothing of us that is in Him that is not perfect as He is.

What there is of us that is not perfect, is this way as a result of this aspect of us not being found in Him.

Christ does not stray, but we stray. Thus, the we that strays must be not of Christ. And scripture tells us this...... that for a time God has left us with the dead, fallen old man, our self. And this is why we sin.

Yes, funny you should mention that, Jesus deals with the strengths and pitfalls of all 7 regions. He was addressing real, worshipping communities, and each had troubles and triumphs.

No, its not "funny" that I should say this.

You should listen to what I say more often, you might realize that I am very orthodox in my speaking. Just not man-made-religion-bound.

Again you have a striking logical error. Because you do not see a perfect Body, you assume that there is no expressed body. We each are, according to the Apostle, living epistles. Are we then expressed epistles, or perfect epistles?

Oh I see a perfect body alright. But this body is yet to be realize in its fulness, though there are those who meet, worship, and live according to this one reality. And these have nothing to do with any in organized religion, other than we all are to be found in Christ.

As for being living epistles..... regeneration and transformation is from the inward to the outward, and, according to God's wisdom it takes time.

Perfection is not expressed by all believers. In fact, perfection in a living believer is not a very common thing.

[quote="Orthodox Christian":58a2b]The Body is being built, according to Paul, knitted together until we all grow up into Christ. The imagery Paul uses in Ephesians is reminiscent of Psalm 139 and the knitting together of each human. Whether one accepts a contextualized or literal understanding of the Church of Christ depends on their understanding of text.

But that's not what my reply to Steve was about, and I won't get drawn out into further conflicts regarding the Orthodox Church- or the Pentecostals, for that matter. There is dialogue that builds the Body, and there is dialogue that tears it down. I've returned to and will be sticking with the former.

[/quote:58a2b]

Orthodox, what do you know about dead letters and dead speaking of these letters?

Really, you can turn to your own dry effort in righteousness all day long and achieve nothing.

The doctrines you worship are false, and thus the source of your speaking is false.

What then of your words...... only falsity.

I'm still awaiting your specific responses to my scriptural points..... those that clearly exposes the lack of understanding you present on these boards.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":7aee3]...... with the same benign aspects and the same true potential pitfalls.

And here we find the folly of the deception, for there is no "potential pitfall" in Christ.

You are incorrect...

No, you are.

:roll:

the Lord's prayer instructs us to pray "lead US not into temptation, but deliver US from the evil one." We all may- no, will stumble while walking around in this clay vessel.

The way of the serpent in the garden ..... Orthodo, I did not say we won't make mistakes. Really, Orthododox, Vulgarity Edited by OC

Personal attack edited by OC, and be honest.... I said,

"... the folly of the deception, for there is no "potential pitfall" in Christ."

I did not say that we won't stumble.

But what you are saying is that within the system is the pitfall.[/quote:7aee3]
No, what I said was that in any gathering of Christians, there will be imperfection. 'System' is your term. Within the synaxis/ekklesia there are potential errors waiting to manifest. God makes the marriage, and the husband and wife mess it up. God establishes the Church, and people divide it.

If it were not so, grace would be unnecessary.

Can you see the difference Orthodox? Your words tell the truth of the apostate state of the institution of Christianity....... a man-made, pitfall ridden, Babylonian sourced, false religion.

This is simply emotion-laden rhetoric, hot-button terms intended to raise the Christian version of the Red Scare.

Rather than factually refute my posts, you criticize the cut and color of my letter jacket

Yes, funny you should mention that, Jesus deals with the strengths and pitfalls of all 7 regions. He was addressing real, worshipping communities, and each had troubles and triumphs.

No, its not "funny" that I should say this.

You should listen to what I say more often, you might realize that I am very orthodox in my speaking. Just not man-made-religion-bound.

This is a non-sequitur on your part. I said it was funny that you should mention the churches of the Apokalypse, for their reality refuted your inference. ie, funny/strange that you should not recognize this.

I was making and am not making any comment on your 'orthodoxy.'

Again you have a striking logical error. Because you do not see a perfect Body, you assume that there is no expressed body. We each are, according to the Apostle, living epistles. Are we then expressed epistles, or perfect epistles?

Oh I see a perfect body alright. But this body is yet to be realize in its fulness, though there are those who meet, worship, and live according to this one reality. And these have nothing to do with any in organized religion, other than we all are to be found in Christ.

This response reflects simply more of your opinion and does not deal at all with the knitting together and the connections which you seem to spiritualize.

As for being living epistles..... regeneration and transformation is from the inward to the outward, and, according to God's wisdom it takes time.

Perfection is not expressed by all believers. In fact, perfection in a living believer is not a very common thing.

Yes, it only happens every two thousand years or so- or rather, it's been 2000 years.

The Body is being built, according to Paul, knitted together until we all grow up into Christ. The imagery Paul uses in Ephesians is reminiscent of Psalm 139 and the knitting together of each human. Whether one accepts a contextualized or literal understanding of the Church of Christ depends on their understanding of text.

But that's not what my reply to Steve was about, and I won't get drawn out into further conflicts regarding the Orthodox Church- or the Pentecostals, for that matter. There is dialogue that builds the Body, and there is dialogue that tears it down. I've returned to and will be sticking with the former.

Orthodox, what do you know about dead letters and dead speaking of these letters?

Relevance?

Really, you can turn to your own dry effort in righteousness all day long and achieve nothing.

Thanks for the advice.

Personal Attack edited by OC are false, and thus the source of your speaking is false.

What then of your words...... only falsity.

Again, you've yet to demonstrate my alleged falsehood scripturally or logically.

I'm still awaiting your specific responses to my scriptural points..... those that clearly exposes the lack of understanding you present on these boards.

If you wish to take a singular scriptural point, free of personal attacks, and make it a point of debate, I'd be happy to indulge you. As it is, it is impossible to sort through your layers of hubris and get down to the point at hand.


Without wax or malice
James