Orthodox reasoning/Praying to Saints

[BradtheImpaler]

Why would anyone ever ask anyone to pray for them, since we have direct access to God? Yet they do. They do because they are taught to do so. Some of us believe that there is a life after this one, and some of you are atheists in the guise of religion

I mean WHEN you pray, why do you sometimes direct your petitions to saints and not directly to God at that point? Why would you devote part of your prayer time to someone other than God when you have direct access to God all the time?

Aiki's position is that we need permission to do what he does not see in the bible. I'm hardly compelled by that imperative

Of course not - you're only compelled by what an ancient, superstitious religious system TELLS you you should be compelled by. (Have you ever had an ORIGINAL THOUGHT since becoming a slave of Orthodoxy?)

Have you ever had an original thought?
I stand accused of being part of an ancient religion, and I plead guilty

More ancient than you realize.

You, on the other hand, are part of a modern heresy, wherein the man worships his own cleverness.
This gives you little to worship, but many opinions

I "venerate" the cleverness of man - I don't "worship" it. (ooooh, that felt good!

Seems like you would need the scripture reference that instructs us to ALSO pray to people (saints) "no longer in the flesh", rather than aiki needing a reference telling us NOT to? Should we also pray to angels, since they are "alive" and in the prescense of God?

A back note on this one: No one ever asked you to participate in our practices. Red herring

Hmmm...I smell a "diversion"? So should we pray to angels?

Speaking of sleight of hand, where did I use the expression "pray to saints?" Please, feel free to post my quote right here_____________

I don't need YOUR quote on this - I have as many as I need from the Orthodox Church itself. Such as...

"Prayers TO the Patron Saint"
http://www.orthodox.net/prayers/patron.htm

- and the advice of am Orthodox priest to a laymen who has chosen St. James as his patron saint...

"What a wonderful patron saint you have chosen, St. James the brother of the Lord...PRAY TO YOUR HOLY SAINT and let him be an example in your Christian life" (Father A.)
http://www.neepeople.com/patronsaint_jim/-29k

Now I suppose you will try to draw a distinction between "praying to saints" and "praying TO saints"? Give up, OC. Tell the truth.

Truth of the matter is you're deflecting and avoiding. I asked you to post where I had used the expression, and you started side kicking like a Rockette.
Still awaiting that proof, Brad

Wow - you are really desperate. Of what consequence is it whether or not YOU use that expression? I have quotes from Orthodox sites that you are instructed to PRAY TO SAINTS. Do you have a personal dispute with your church over this? My point is PROVEN. You have no recourse. Twist in the wind, buddy! :bday:

All your arguments consist of nothing more than rationalization and euphemism. Just because you don't use the phrase "pray to saints" it means that's not what you're advocating? (Just because used car dealers now say it's a "previously owned vehicle" that means, in reality, it's NOT a "used car"?) You can deny ANYTHING that way, but it soon becomes laughably evident that all it is, is denial.

This is a phenomenally stupid denial of your own transparent word games. There is a canyon sized gap created by changing/adding a few small words.

[quote:0cbb1]Ralph Beats his wife often
Ralph beats his wife at chess often

See the difference? We both know very well that you are inserting YOUR view of the matter over my words.

No, I am inserting your church's view of the matter over your words. At least they admit what you won't. Do you know what the definition of to "pray" is?
"To make a fervent request or entreaty"[/quote:0cbb1]

You'd carp about it if I used the words, yet you insert the words when I don't use them. The reason why I say things as I do is that I know some of you are too narrow and dim to understand the differences in the way words are used. The word pray, for example, has the following definitions:
[quote:0cbb1]To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
To move or bring by prayer or entreaty

Now, internally, we say "pray to" saint. We know what we mean. But in communicating with heterodox, heretics, agnostics, and the like, it becomes necessary to clarify, since you are constitutionally predisposed toward seeking to denigrate and distort[/quote:0cbb1]

oooooohhhh...so you DO pray to saints but now you want to appeal to the definition! You just deny that you pray to saints because we heretics, agnostics, in-general "low-lifes" wouldn't understand. Very prideful, and without reason.

And again, Elmer Gantry, where did I say "pray to?"
Post proof, or slip into the ownage collar

I have proven Orthodox people do "pray to saints" per their own church's use of said phrase, and by the dictionary definition of "pray". What else do you need? Why not exhibit a little Christian humility and admit you're wrong?

You have failed to post proof. simple as that

How many times do we have to go over this? I posted PROOF, I gave you the quotes. You know it and so does everyone who reads this.

You mock Christian humility

How? I just asked you to SHOW SOME.

(to be continued...)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

OrthoC:

Their bodies have died. The scripure is clear that they cannot and will not die. They are not dead saints, there is no such thing. I make this distinction because certain people, such as yourself, would like to ignore Christ's promised hope, obscure it, contradict it.

To what "promised hope" are you referring, exactly? We are in agreement that the physical bodies of the saints of the past are dead. What promise does my agreement with you on this point obscure, or contradict?

This is the theological equivalent of "see Jane run." God is God of the living, not the dead. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Would you argue that those in heaven are dead?
Of course not.
Unless, that is, you adhere to the heresy of soul sleep.

So you demonstrated that the bible was written to people this side of heaven. Absolutely brilliant- there need be no scripture nor light nor anything else for those who are in His Presence.
What I asked you to provide was eplicit and plain proof that ONLY people on this side should or can pray for us. What you provided is proof that people on this side should do so.
Did you miss the ONLY clause? Or did you simply choose to ignore it?

Nope, didn't miss it. I think the complete absence from Scripture of any explicit inclusion of those who have died from praying for us who still live is proof enough.

Ahh, the argument from silence- as in the logical fallacy argument from silence.
I LOVE this one. By way of example:
Let's round up the slaves again right now- the abolitionists were wrong- since the bible does not forbid slavery- in fact, commends slaves to obey masters- then we should allow it (by your, erm, logic).


But let's return to the point made, and the challenge posed- find the scripture that says that the saints who are commanded to pray on this side are to cease doing so on that side.

I'll await your chapter and verse.

With your logic it would take more than the word "Ladies" and the figure of a woman on the door to prevent a man from using a woman's washroom. There'd have to be an explicit, posted prohibition against men using the women's washroom. No one I know, though, requires such explicit instructions. It is enough to see that men are not included in the signage on the door to the ladies' washroom for most men to understand that they are excluded from entering.

I'd be quite satisfied with a sign that said 'Ladies'- allegorically speaking. By all means, let's have a look at the door to your restroom.

Does it occur to you that incense does not stay in the bowl? Where do you think the smoke goes as the bowl is placed before the Lamb?

Up, I guess. That's where most smoke usually goes. But, the incense and the smoke that rises from its burning are not one and the same thing. I don't say to someone, "Hey, throw some more smoke on the fire!" No, I say, "Throw some more wood on the fire!" The smoke rises from the burning wood but the wood stays in the fire -- just as the burning incense stays in the bowl. Mind you, the verse in Revelations never says that the incense in the bowl is burning...

Couple of points:
1. It's Revelation, singular, not Revelations, plural
2. No one said anything about burning, that's a total strawman
3. You have such a moronic argument (your argument, not you) going here, I cannot believe that you fight on
4. The incense is figurative, illustrative. It is, as it is written, prayers of saints. It is handled/delivered/ mediated by Elders, and then presented/waved before the King.

So let's cut to the chase: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that the incense flows through the hands of the elders to the Lamb.

No, as you've demonstrated, it just takes a creative imagination!

This does not constitute a rebuttal. Perhaps you could use a little bit of my alleged creativity.

Burden of proof was and is on the original maker of claim- Aiki-
Now, Aiki can either answer the question or not, but the fallacious and misguided answer Aiki gave is what has been called into question.

You must shoulder some "burden of proof" yourself and establish your claims as well. So far, you've only exhibited a knack for snide remarks and your own brand of "fallacious and misguided" reasoning.

I know You Are But What Am I does not constitute a competent rebuttal.

Aiki's position is that we need permission to do what he does not see in the bible. I'm hardly compelled by that imperative.

Oh? Where do I say that, exactly, in such unqualified fashion?

Have you ever had a pleasant exchange with someone who disagreed with you, OrthoC?

Often. Sorry if you find me unpleasant. I see nothing in my answers to you that attacks anything but ideas. If I have, please post it to me so we can reveal OC's character flaws. Elsewise, you've got some 'splainin' to do, as to why you are turning this toward persons and not content.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I mean WHEN you pray, why do you sometimes direct your petitions to saints and not directly to God at that point? Why would you devote part of your prayer time to someone other than God when you have direct access to God all the time?

Why do people call their friends/fill out scraps of paper and drop them in the collection plate/ call the 700 club prayer line-asking for prayer?
95% of my prayers are directed to The Holy Trinity. 5% of the time I ask siants here or there to pray for me.

Aiki's position is that we need permission to do what he does not see in the bible. I'm hardly compelled by that imperative

Of course not - you're only compelled by what an ancient, superstitious religious system TELLS you you should be compelled by. (Have you ever had an ORIGINAL THOUGHT since becoming a slave of Orthodoxy?)

[quote:5ad09]Have you ever had an original thought?
I stand accused of being part of an ancient religion, and I plead guilty

More ancient than you realize.[/quote:5ad09]
Don't be coy , Brad, let's get down to it. Free range world history arguments right here suit me fine- Bring your argument, not a simpering off-handed entendre.'

You, on the other hand, are part of a modern heresy, wherein the man worships his own cleverness.
This gives you little to worship, but many opinions

I "venerate" the cleverness of man - I don't "worship" it. (ooooh, that felt good!

That would be appropriate to do so- if in fact you did. But you do not venerate the cleverness of man- you celebrate your own cleverness. Were you to admire someone else's, you'd be alot closer to true worship. Yes, and this is so because you would begin to relish the fact that others are greater than you, rather than strive against it/hate it. This might actually lead to putting God on the throne of your heart, as opposed to your moderate intellect.

Speaking of sleight of hand, where did I use the expression "pray to saints?" Please, feel free to post my quote right here_____________

I don't need YOUR quote on this - I have as many as I need from the Orthodox Church itself. Such as...

"Prayers TO the Patron Saint"
http://www.orthodox.net/prayers/patron.htm

- and the advice of am Orthodox priest to a laymen who has chosen St. James as his patron saint...

"What a wonderful patron saint you have chosen, St. James the brother of the Lord...PRAY TO YOUR HOLY SAINT and let him be an example in your Christian life" (Father A.)
http://www.neepeople.com/patronsaint_jim/-29k

Now I suppose you will try to draw a distinction between "praying to saints" and "praying TO saints"? Give up, OC. Tell the truth.

[quote:5ad09]Truth of the matter is you're deflecting and avoiding. I asked you to post where I had used the expression, and you started side kicking like a Rockette.
Still awaiting that proof, Brad

Wow - you are really desperate. Of what consequence is it whether or not YOU use that expression? I have quotes from Orthodox sites that you are instructed to PRAY TO SAINTS. Do you have a personal dispute with your church over this? My point is PROVEN. You have no recourse. Twist in the wind, buddy! :bday:[/quote:5ad09]
You were challenged to post proof,and you sputtered and protested, and come up with jack and squat. pwned.

All your arguments consist of nothing more than rationalization and euphemism. Just because you don't use the phrase "pray to saints" it means that's not what you're advocating? (Just because used car dealers now say it's a "previously owned vehicle" that means, in reality, it's NOT a "used car"?) You can deny ANYTHING that way, but it soon becomes laughably evident that all it is, is denial.

I understand your confusion- it arises from your ignorance of languages. I'm assuming that you just speak English. If you ever learned any other languages, you would quickly see how silly it appears when people like you reify words. In order to understand a speaker, you must know what they mean, you must seek to understand what they mean. Language- especially terms that have went through multiple translations- is/are inexact.

All that to say that I know what you mean by pray, and it's not what we mean. This is a practice of yours- initally, when I saw you do this on the Trinity thread, I though you simply disingenous. I know believe you to simply be mistaken and undereducated.

This is a phenomenally stupid denial of your own transparent word games. There is a canyon sized gap created by changing/adding a few small words.

[quote:5ad09]Ralph Beats his wife often
Ralph beats his wife at chess often

[quote:5ad09]See the difference? We both know very well that you are inserting YOUR view of the matter over my words.

No, I am inserting your church's view of the matter over your words. At least they admit what you won't. Do you know what the definition of to "pray" is?
"To make a fervent request or entreaty"[/quote:5ad09]

You'd carp about it if I used the words, yet you insert the words when I don't use them. The reason why I say things as I do is that I know some of you are too narrow and dim to understand the differences in the way words are used. The word pray, for example, has the following definitions:
[quote:5ad09]To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
To move or bring by prayer or entreaty

Now, internally, we say "pray to" saint. We know what we mean. But in communicating with heterodox, heretics, agnostics, and the like, it becomes necessary to clarify, since you are constitutionally predisposed toward seeking to denigrate and distort[/quote:5ad09]

oooooohhhh...so you DO pray to saints but now you want to appeal to the definition! You just deny that you pray to saints because we heretics, agnostics, in-general "low-lifes" wouldn't understand. Very prideful, and without reason. [/quote:5ad09]
You just can't help yourself, can you Brad? You HAVE to insert words to amp the emotional valence of your 'argument.' Just who were you quoting "low lifes?" Do tell, Brad.

And again, Elmer Gantry, where did I say "pray to?"
Post proof, or slip into the ownage collar

I have proven Orthodox people do "pray to saints" per their own church's use of said phrase, and by the dictionary definition of "pray". What else do you need? Why not exhibit a little Christian humility and admit you're wrong?

[quote:5ad09]You have failed to post proof. simple as that

How many times do we have to go over this? I posted PROOF, I gave you the quotes. You know it and so does everyone who reads this.

You mock Christian humility

How? I just asked you to SHOW SOME.

(to be continued...)[/quote:5ad09][/quote]
You have posted no proof of what you were challenged on. Grandstanding and begging for audience support will not change this.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

but when you stand before Christ, you won't be laughing

Such is the fate, I suppose, of all who disagree with YOU? How presumptuous. Employing Christ as your agent in an imagined threat is so characteristic of a malicious religious spirit. Too bad "saint" Justinian is no longer in around whereby you could have me "driven outside the walls of the city with relentless violence"? (But who knows? You can still contact him right?)

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

More empty rhetoric. I think we know who has set the terms of debate here, and I'll be awaiting Aiki to answer my question as asked

You seem to employ the phrase "empty rhetoric" in place of "pleading the 5th".

Actually, I employ the term when you throw loaded phrases disguised as questions. Ergo, I use the term descriptively. One only pleads the fifth to actual questions. Sort your flagging argument out and get back to me

There IS no more argument on the point at hand, but it seems to have slipped by you? Quotations from your institution have proven my case - Orthodox people are encouraged to "pray to saints".

Are you aware of what the word canon (kanona) means? You do not display a grasp of the concept. Essentially, scripture is the straight edge/ruler/plumbline by which all 'truth' is measured. It is the guide by which the house is built. It is not the house

[quote:01f4d]From where I stand, it is you who abuses scripture to validate your heretical anti-Trinitarianism.

"Heresy is a cradle - orthodoxy a coffin" (Ingersoll)

Spoken like a true apostate

My only regret about being called apostate is that it would intend I had been foolish enough to have been seduced by organized religion in the first place. [/quote:01f4d]

"Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
You go boy

I do not believe you and your church qualify as "the Lord and His anointed".

Could Arius, Montanus, or Anton Lavey have said it better?
<bravo>

Not too impressive a list. I could offer a much better "Rogue's Gallery" utilizing famous CHRISTIANS :evil:

I feel bad enough scandalizing those by way of comparison with you Brad, but I was in need of a comparison.

Interesting. Can you explain what it is about me that makes me worse (in your eyes) than the ones you mentioned - or was that just a snide comment?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I mean WHEN you pray, why do you sometimes direct your petitions to saints and not directly to God at that point? Why would you devote part of your prayer time to someone other than God when you have direct access to God all the time?

Why do people call their friends/fill out scraps of paper and drop them in the collection plate/ call the 700 club prayer line-asking for prayer?

Because they feel that giving money will help get their prayers answered?

[quote:9f696]95% of my prayers are directed to The Holy Trinity. 5% of the time I ask siants here or there to pray for me

Do you get better results with the Holy Trinity or with the saints? Do you keep a log? Do you think there might be some Orthodox out there that pray 95% to saints? Think that would be excessive?

Aiki's position is that we need permission to do what he does not see in the bible. I'm hardly compelled by that imperative

Of course not - you're only compelled by what an ancient, superstitious religious system TELLS you you should be compelled by. (Have you ever had an ORIGINAL THOUGHT since becoming a slave of Orthodoxy?)

[quote:9f696]Have you ever had an original thought?
I stand accused of being part of an ancient religion, and I plead guilty

More ancient than you realize.

Don't be coy , Brad, let's get down to it. Free range world history arguments right here suit me fine- Bring your argument, not a simpering off-handed entendre.

If you can be cynical, presumptuous, and "Holier than Thou", why can't I be a little coy?

You, on the other hand, are part of a modern heresy, wherein the man worships his own cleverness.
This gives you little to worship, but many opinions

I "venerate" the cleverness of man - I don't "worship" it. (ooooh, that felt good!

That would be appropriate to do so- if in fact you did. But you do not venerate the cleverness of man- you celebrate your own cleverness

This is the part where you try to go back and "re-adjust" your statement. People do notice this type of thing you know.

Were you to admire someone else's, you'd be alot closer to true worship

So when you admire saints, it 's close to true WORSHIP? Keep going...

Yes, and this is so because you would begin to relish the fact that others are greater than you, rather than strive against it/hate it. This might actually lead to putting God on the throne of your heart, as opposed to your moderate intellect

It's amazing how you are able to diagnose the thoughts and intentions of other's hearts :roll: Where you born with this gift or did you just pick it up while developing your condescending attitude?

Speaking of sleight of hand, where did I use the expression "pray to saints?" Please, feel free to post my quote right here_____________

I don't need YOUR quote on this - I have as many as I need from the Orthodox Church itself. Such as...

"Prayers TO the Patron Saint"
http://www.orthodox.net/prayers/patron.htm

- and the advice of am Orthodox priest to a laymen who has chosen St. James as his patron saint...

"What a wonderful patron saint you have chosen, St. James the brother of the Lord...PRAY TO YOUR HOLY SAINT and let him be an example in your Christian life" (Father A.)
http://www.neepeople.com/patronsaint_jim/-29k

Now I suppose you will try to draw a distinction between "praying to saints" and "praying TO saints"? Give up, OC. Tell the truth.

[quote:9f696]Truth of the matter is you're deflecting and avoiding. I asked you to post where I had used the expression, and you started side kicking like a Rockette.
Still awaiting that proof, Brad

Wow - you are really desperate. Of what consequence is it whether or not YOU use that expression? I have quotes from Orthodox sites that you are instructed to PRAY TO SAINTS. Do you have a personal dispute with your church over this? My point is PROVEN. You have no recourse. Twist in the wind, buddy! :bday:[/quote:9f696]

You were challenged to post proof,and you sputtered and protested, and come up with jack and squat. pwned.

Please restate the "challenge", along with a quote from myself that led you to make the challenge. I don't want there to be any "backpedaling" when I once again supply the proof.

All your arguments consist of nothing more than rationalization and euphemism. Just because you don't use the phrase "pray to saints" it means that's not what you're advocating? (Just because used car dealers now say it's a "previously owned vehicle" that means, in reality, it's NOT a "used car"?) You can deny ANYTHING that way, but it soon becomes laughably evident that all it is, is denial.

I understand your confusion- it arises from your ignorance of languages. I'm assuming that you just speak English. If you ever learned any other languages, you would quickly see how silly it appears when people like you reify words. In order to understand a speaker, you must know what they mean, you must seek to understand what they mean. Language- especially terms that have went through multiple translations- is/are inexact.

All that to say that I know what you mean by pray, and it's not what we mean. This is a practice of yours- initally, when I saw you do this on the Trinity thread, I though you simply disingenous. I know believe you to simply be mistaken and undereducated[/quote:9f696]

One wonders how haughty you must have been BEFORE you were a Christian? The mind boggles. (or did your conversion make a difference?)

But anyway, why are you now trying to explain what you "really" mean by "prayer" (as in "to saints") unless you have admitted (in a very round about way, of course) that you and your church DO use that phrase?

This is a phenomenally stupid denial of your own transparent word games. There is a canyon sized gap created by changing/adding a few small words.

[quote:9f696]Ralph Beats his wife often
Ralph beats his wife at chess often

[quote:9f696]See the difference? We both know very well that you are inserting YOUR view of the matter over my words.

No, I am inserting your church's view of the matter over your words. At least they admit what you won't. Do you know what the definition of to "pray" is?
"To make a fervent request or entreaty"[/quote:9f696]

You'd carp about it if I used the words, yet you insert the words when I don't use them. The reason why I say things as I do is that I know some of you are too narrow and dim to understand the differences in the way words are used. The word pray, for example, has the following definitions:
[quote:9f696]To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
To move or bring by prayer or entreaty

Now, internally, we say "pray to" saint. We know what we mean. But in communicating with heterodox, heretics, agnostics, and the like, it becomes necessary to clarify, since you are constitutionally predisposed toward seeking to denigrate and distort

oooooohhhh...so you DO pray to saints but now you want to appeal to the definition! You just deny that you pray to saints because we heretics, agnostics, in-general "low-lifes" wouldn't understand. Very prideful, and without reason. [/quote:9f696]

You just can't help yourself, can you Brad? You HAVE to insert words to amp the emotional valence of your 'argument.' Just who were you quoting "low lifes?" Do tell, Brad

"Low-lifes" is obviously your opinion of what constitutes "the like".

And again, Elmer Gantry, where did I say "pray to?"
Post proof, or slip into the ownage collar

I have proven Orthodox people do "pray to saints" per their own church's use of said phrase, and by the dictionary definition of "pray". What else do you need? Why not exhibit a little Christian humility and admit you're wrong?

[quote:9f696]You have failed to post proof. simple as that

How many times do we have to go over this? I posted PROOF, I gave you the quotes. You know it and so does everyone who reads this.

You mock Christian humility

How? I just asked you to SHOW SOME.

(to be continued...)[/quote:9f696][/quote:9f696]
You have posted no proof of what you were challenged on. Grandstanding and begging for audience support will not change this.[/quote:9f696]

Please repeat challenge, as I said earlier.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

but when you stand before Christ, you won't be laughing

Such is the fate, I suppose, of all who disagree with YOU? How presumptuous. Employing Christ as your agent in an imagined threat is so characteristic of a malicious religious spirit.

Spare me the Christianese, Brad.

Let's look at the original quote, sans Brad edit

You mock Christian humility, but when you stand before Christ, you won't be laughing.

Look, Brad is taking words out and adding them again. That pretty much makes you a liar, from where I stand.

Psalm 1:1-2. Compare that to Matt 5:22 and the picture should fill in your blanks.

Too bad "saint" Justinian is no longer in around whereby you could have me "driven outside the walls of the city with relentless violence"? (But who knows? You can still contact him right?)

Yes, all we Orthodox Christians have access to Emperors from late antiquity.
Membership has its privileges.

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

More empty rhetoric. I think we know who has set the terms of debate here, and I'll be awaiting Aiki to answer my question as asked

You seem to employ the phrase "empty rhetoric" in place of "pleading the 5th".

[quote:d8ec8]Actually, I employ the term when you throw loaded phrases disguised as questions. Ergo, I use the term descriptively. One only pleads the fifth to actual questions. Sort your flagging argument out and get back to me

There IS no more argument on the point at hand, but it seems to have slipped by you? Quotations from your institution have proven my case - Orthodox people are encouraged to "pray to saints". [/quote:d8ec8]
And yet again you avoid the challenge to post proof. You deflect, you avoid the substance of your own argument, then you expect me to respond to your back pedal.
I doan theenk so, loosey.

Did I, or did I not use the term "pray to," Brad?

Are you aware of what the word canon (kanona) means? You do not display a grasp of the concept. Essentially, scripture is the straight edge/ruler/plumbline by which all 'truth' is measured. It is the guide by which the house is built. It is not the house

[quote:d8ec8]From where I stand, it is you who abuses scripture to validate your heretical anti-Trinitarianism.

"Heresy is a cradle - orthodoxy a coffin" (Ingersoll)

[quote:d8ec8]Spoken like a true apostate

My only regret about being called apostate is that it would intend I had been foolish enough to have been seduced by organized religion in the first place. [/quote:d8ec8]

"Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
You go boy

I do not believe you and your church qualify as "the Lord and His anointed". [/quote:d8ec8][/quote]
I believe your quote was "seduced by organized religion." This encapsulates not only the Orthodox Church, but every other sect as well. We both know you were bragging of your rugged American individualism, and I was laughing at your adolescent preening- as I still am.

Let's try a Brad edit:

I do not believe

Yeah, buddy. Now I'll argue with what you didn't say for a time, then I'll sulk. I think that summarizes your M.O.

Could Arius, Montanus, or Anton Lavey have said it better?
<bravo>

Not too impressive a list. I could offer a much better "Rogue's Gallery" utilizing famous CHRISTIANS :evil:

[quote:d8ec8]I feel bad enough scandalizing those by way of comparison with you Brad, but I was in need of a comparison.

Interesting. Can you explain what it is about me that makes me worse (in your eyes) than the ones you mentioned - or was that just a snide comment?[/quote:d8ec8]
Anton Lavey had the integrity to call himself what he was. Arius had a following. Montanus made a convert out of no less than Tertullian.
Honesty, leadership ability, and charisma- they each had some of these.
Does that clear it up?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

but when you stand before Christ, you won't be laughing

Such is the fate, I suppose, of all who disagree with YOU? How presumptuous. Employing Christ as your agent in an imagined threat is so characteristic of a malicious religious spirit.

[quote:f0acf]Spare me the Christianese, Brad.

Let's look at the original quote, sans Brad edit

You mock Christian humility, but when you stand before Christ, you won't be laughing.

Look, Brad is taking words out and adding them again. That pretty much makes you a liar, from where I stand

I addressed the first half of your statement in my previous post, where you falsely accused me of mocking Christian humilty, when I had only said you needed to SHOW some Christian humilty. The rest of the sentence comprises a threat on it's own.

Too bad "saint" Justinian is no longer in around whereby you could have me "driven outside the walls of the city with relentless violence"? (But who knows? You can still contact him right?)

Yes, all we Orthodox Christians have access to Emperors from late antiquity

This just gets better and better : You talk to Roman Emperors. (Why was I thinking I could have a rational discussion with you in the first place? :-?)

Membership has its privileges

Membership in a psychiatric ward has the same sort of privileges. You can claim anything you want there without evidence also.

But then, after all, why are you arguing with aiki on HIS terms? Does the Othodox Church believe it NEEDS specific scripture to validate every bit of it's liturgy? Don't you guys have a "divine rubber stamp of approval" in all you DECIDE do since you are the one and only genuine Church?

More empty rhetoric. I think we know who has set the terms of debate here, and I'll be awaiting Aiki to answer my question as asked

You seem to employ the phrase "empty rhetoric" in place of "pleading the 5th".

[quote:f0acf]Actually, I employ the term when you throw loaded phrases disguised as questions. Ergo, I use the term descriptively. One only pleads the fifth to actual questions. Sort your flagging argument out and get back to me

There IS no more argument on the point at hand, but it seems to have slipped by you? Quotations from your institution have proven my case - Orthodox people are encouraged to "pray to saints". [/quote:f0acf]

And yet again you avoid the challenge to post proof. You deflect, you avoid the substance of your own argument, then you expect me to respond to your back pedal.
I doan theenk so, loosey

Did I, or did I not use the term "pray to," Brad?

Yes, you did...

[Now internally, we say "pray to" saint]

Who is "we"? Does that include YOU or not?

Are you aware of what the word canon (kanona) means? You do not display a grasp of the concept. Essentially, scripture is the straight edge/ruler/plumbline by which all 'truth' is measured. It is the guide by which the house is built. It is not the house

[quote:f0acf]From where I stand, it is you who abuses scripture to validate your heretical anti-Trinitarianism.

"Heresy is a cradle - orthodoxy a coffin" (Ingersoll)

[quote:f0acf]Spoken like a true apostate

My only regret about being called apostate is that it would intend I had been foolish enough to have been seduced by organized religion in the first place. [/quote:f0acf]

"Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
You go boy

I do not believe you and your church qualify as "the Lord and His anointed". [/quote:f0acf][/quote:f0acf]

I believe your quote was "seduced by organized religion." This encapsulates not only the Orthodox Church, but every other sect as well

"Every OTHER sect as well" - well put. And yes, "organized religion" incorporates a vast system.

We both know you were bragging of your rugged American individualism

There you go again with that mind-reading stuff - how DO you do it? Amazing.

and I was laughing at your adolescent preening- as I still am

And I'm still laughing at thoughts of you imagining that you are communicating with a Roman Emperor. I think that's a LOT funnier than "adolescent preening".

Let's try a Brad edit:

I do not believe

[quote:f0acf]Yeah, buddy. Now I'll argue with what you didn't say for a time, then I'll sulk. I think that summarizes your M.O.

I'm not sulking, I'm having a great 'ol time :P And there's so much to look forward to in future discussions, like you addressing the evidence that the Orthodox Church has, in it's possession, the head of John the Baptist. (thought I'd give you a "heads up" on that one)

Could Arius, Montanus, or Anton Lavey have said it better?
<bravo>

Not too impressive a list. I could offer a much better "Rogue's Gallery" utilizing famous CHRISTIANS :evil:

[quote:f0acf]I feel bad enough scandalizing those by way of comparison with you Brad, but I was in need of a comparison.

Interesting. Can you explain what it is about me that makes me worse (in your eyes) than the ones you mentioned - or was that just a snide comment?[/quote:f0acf]

Anton Lavey had the integrity to call himself what he was

I'm not sure what to call myself right now as I am in the process of re - evaluating many things I formerly believed. Is that a symptom of lack of integrity?

Arius had a following

Don't want a "following". Is that a bad thing?

Montanus made a convert out of no less than Tertullian

Not looking for "converts" - as I am still in the process of questioning, what would I convert them to?

Honesty, leadership ability, and charisma- they each had some of these.
Does that clear it up?

[/quote:f0acf]

All that is clear is that you are essentially a slanderous person, but since this type of mud slinging is a clear indication that you are running low on REAL "ammunition", I find it greatly inspiring :D

 

[cj]

All that is clear is that you are essentially a slanderous person, but since this type of mud slinging is a clear indication that you are running low on REAL "ammunition", I find it greatly inspiring :D

Its what Orthodox Chriatian does when confronted with truth to which he cannot respond.

But this MO is understandable, as the limitations of the apsotate institution that he submits to become his own limitations. And scripture declares that darkness cannot overcome light.

Just always remember though that OC is not the enemy, the thought and the source of the thought is. And this understanding might help you in your own walk.

Sometimes, the Lord will seemingly lead us outside the camp for a time, but it is always with the view to bring us back in, only with a deeper foundation of faith in faith that is more useful for Him in working out His economy to gain the mature Church.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I addressed the first half of your statement in my previous post, where you falsely accused me of mocking Christian humilty, when I had only said you needed to SHOW some Christian humilty. The rest of the sentence comprises a threat on it's own.

"Falsely accuse- you mean like insert meaning into your statements that you never intended? Do you mean to say that I distorted your message by perhaps reading too much or too little into specific portions of your statement?
Pause and reflect, Brad, pause and reflect

This just gets better and better : You talk to Roman Emperors. (Why was I thinking I could have a rational discussion with you in the first place? :-?)

You suggest that I contact a dead emperor so as to have you forcibly removed from an imaginary city- but I'm the one who is irrational, right Brad?
</butterfly net>

[

Did I, or did I not use the term "pray to," Brad?

Yes, you did...

[Now internally, we say "pray to" saint]

Who is "we"? Does that include YOU or not?

As I have stated and asked, demonstrate where I advocated "pray to"
on this thread.

"Every OTHER sect as well" - well put. And yes, "organized religion" incorporates a vast system.

I know that it was "well put"- here you go, bright boy

sect
n.
A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.

Pretty darn accurate description of the various groups within the broad tent of Christianity.

There are sects, and there are mavericks

mav·er·ick
n.
1. An unbranded range animal, especially a calf that has become separated from its mother, traditionally considered the property of the first person who brands it.
2. One that refuses to abide by the dictates of or resists adherence to a group; a dissenter.

The question is- how does one know whether one is a dissenter, or merely an unruly animal?

We both know you were bragging of your rugged American individualism

There you go again with that mind-reading stuff - how DO you do it? Amazing.

You mean like telling me what I really mean when I say "pray" or "person," Brad? <snicker> Ain't it unpleasant when your turkeys come home to roost?

and I was laughing at your adolescent preening- as I still am

And I'm still laughing at thoughts of you imagining that you are communicating with a Roman Emperor. I think that's a LOT funnier than "adolescent preening".

And that is just one among many differences between us, Brad. When I set out to be sarcastic, it's funny. When you set out to be sarcastic, it's as repulsive as watching a fat guy flex in the mirror.

Let's try a Brad edit:

I do not believe

[quote:cfbc7]Yeah, buddy. Now I'll argue with what you didn't say for a time, then I'll sulk. I think that summarizes your M.O.

I'm not sulking, I'm having a great 'ol time :P And there's so much to look forward to in future discussions, like you addressing the evidence that the Orthodox Church has, in it's possession, the head of John the Baptist. (thought I'd give you a "heads up" on that one)

That's really poor schtik, Brad.
I don't happen to be convinced that it is John the Baptist's head that we possess. I also don't believe the Church's position that Paul wrote the epistle to the Hebrews. Being in communion with is not synonymous with being in lockstep.
I realized long ago, being married as I have for 17 years, that communion does not require exhaustive agreement.

Anton Lavey had the integrity to call himself what he was

I'm not sure what to call myself right now as I am in the process of re - evaluating many things I formerly believed. Is that a symptom of lack of integrity?

I suppose you think those who self-describe as "Methodist" "Assemblies" or Orthodox are no longer in the process of evaluating? Silly little lemmings.

Arius had a following

Don't want a "following". Is that a bad thing?

No, that's a very good thing for obvious reasons

Montanus made a convert out of no less than Tertullian

Not looking for "converts" - as I am still in the process of questioning, what would I convert them to?

I hear the same thing from the "freethinkers" (atheists). Yet I see them promote their meetings, engage in public debates, and seek media coverage. Color me skeptical.

Honesty, leadership ability, and charisma- they each had some of these.
Does that clear it up?

All that is clear is that you are essentially a slanderous person, but since this type of mud slinging is a clear indication that you are running low on REAL "ammunition", I find it greatly inspiring :D

[/quote:cfbc7]
You mean to say that we are no longer discussing the relevant topic. This is inevitably where your deconstruction and sarcasm lead. I am unconcerned, for I was aware from the outset that you had no intent on looking at the issues at hand.
And now you wish to cry foul because I simply beat you at your own game.

I'll be awaiting genuine dialog about issues relevant to the topic now, when the neighborhood bullies begin to sulk it's no longer profitable to kick sand at them.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

You mean to say that we are no longer discussing the relevant topic. This is inevitably where your deconstruction and sarcasm lead
I am unconcerned, for I was aware from the outset that you had no intent on looking at the issues at hand.
And now you wish to cry foul because I simply beat you at your own game.
I'll be awaiting genuine dialog about issues relevant to the topic now, when the neighborhood bullies begin to sulk it's no longer profitable to kick sand at them.

To me, you were the "neighborhood bully" when I got here. But you're right about needing to get back to the specific issue as 90% of our posts are composed of "potshots".

So I supply the quote -

"Now, internally, we say pray to saint."

Did I misquote or take that out of context? Did you leave the "s" off saints intentionally to provide a technical loophole to claim you didn't say "pray to saintS"? "We" refers, in context, to the Orthodox Church, including you, right? Sorry but I'm just running through possible excuses ahead of time to try and make sense of your challenge.

Perhaps you can help?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

As I stated before, Brad, when you say "pray to saint(s)," you are suggesting that we ask specific people in heaven to answer our prayers. When we say 'pray to saint(s)' in the liturgy, we are saying, commensurate with one of several meanings of the expression "pray," entreat or ask.

This is why, in dialog with Protestants, we insist in phrasing this "we ask saints to pray for us," for this is what we are doing, expressed in common parlance. We do not expect saints to answer our prayers- only God answers prayers.

If I ask so and so to pray for me, or to do something for me, we know that we will see this in Elizabethan English "I pray thee." You are aware of this, no doubt, and demonstrate your intent to slander by arguing with the obvious.

I challenged you to show where I had said "pray to" on this thread because I know full well that those who are here, with the exception of yesha, have been interested only in distorting our words.

Questioning practices of others- no problem
Arguing with the actual practices of others- no problem
Purposefully altering/distorting the stated practices of others- big problem

By distorting and maligning the practices of others, one demonstrates an intent to bring harm to the other.

So- when the infidel is storming the city gates, is it a "neighborhood bully" who turns back the activity of their battering ram? If so, count me in as the neighborhood bully, and expect plenty where that came from.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

As I stated before, Brad, when you say "pray to saint(s)," you are suggesting that we ask specific people in heaven to answer our prayers. When we say 'pray to saint(s)' in the liturgy, we are saying, commensurate with one of several meanings of the expression "pray," entreat or ask.

This is why, in dialog with Protestants, we insist in phrasing this "we ask saints to pray for us," for this is what we are doing, expressed in common parlance. We do not expect saints to answer our prayers- only God answers prayers.

If I ask so and so to pray for me, or to do something for me, we know that we will see this in Elizabethan English "I pray thee." You are aware of this, no doubt, and demonstrate your intent to slander by arguing with the obvious.

I challenged you to show where I had said "pray to" on this thread because I know full well that those who are here, with the exception of yesha, have been interested only in distorting our words.

Questioning practices of others- no problem
Arguing with the actual practices of others- no problem
Purposefully altering/distorting the stated practices of others- big problem

By distorting and maligning the practices of others, one demonstrates an intent to bring harm to the other.

So- when the infidel is storming the city gates, is it a "neighborhood bully" who turns back the activity of their battering ram? If so, count me in as the neighborhood bully, and expect plenty where that came from.

This is an ill-disguised attempt to modify your challenge after the fact - that fact being, I supplied the quote you challenged me on wherein you stated that you DO use the term "pray to" saints.

You didn't say show where you use the phrase externally as opposed to internally...

You didn't say show where you use the phrase in the manner of worship rather than simple requesting...

You said to show you where you ever USED THE PHRASE. I did - you won't admit it, but then you don't have to because anyone can read it for themselves in black and white.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I challenged you to show where I had said "pray to" on this thread because I know full well that those who are here, with the exception of yesha, have been interested only in distorting our words.

Thank you kindly for proving my point that you are intent on doing nothing less than distorting what has been said.

This is an ill-disguised attempt to modify your challenge after the fact

In point of fact, you completely failed to demonstrate anything. After having owned you 6 ways from Sunday, I explained why we were involved in the exercise in the first place. In the process of explaining this, I explained to you why I treat your posts in the manner that I do, and gave you the opportunity to get honest.

Thank you for demonstrating that you have no intention of doing anything but playing (badly) at semantics.

You didn't say show where you use the phrase externally as opposed to internally...

You didn't say show where you use the phrase in the manner of worship rather than simple requesting...

I said, and I quote "show me where I have used the phrase "pray to" on this forum" which you failed to do. I then explained what is said in the liturgy, and expanded on why this is in my last post (Elizabethan English)
Now stop whining.

Even if I had used the phrase, it wouldn't change how it is I/We pray or to whom, in the ultimate sense. But you are not concerned with what we mean- ie, understanding us- but are rather interested in distorting our meaning- ie, seeking to injure us.

I expect this from Fundamentalists, and respond accordingly.

 

[aiki]

OrthoC:

Hello.

You wrote:

This is the theological equivalent of "see Jane run." God is God of the living, not the dead. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Would you argue that those in heaven are dead?
Of course not.
Unless, that is, you adhere to the heresy of soul sleep.

Nope. Don't adhere to the idea of soul sleep.

Ahh, the argument from silence- as in the logical fallacy argument from silence.
I LOVE this one. By way of example:
Let's round up the slaves again right now- the abolitionists were wrong- since the bible does not forbid slavery- in fact, commends slaves to obey masters- then we should allow it (by your, erm, logic).


But let's return to the point made, and the challenge posed- find the scripture that says that the saints who are commanded to pray on this side are to cease doing so on that side.

I'll await your chapter and verse.

I don't know if you intended to do this or not, but when you challenged me for biblical proof of the belief that one doesn't need to pray to saints who have died you made it logically impossible to meet your challenge. Since, as I have demonstrated, the Bible doesn't speak to the matter of saints who have died interceding for us at all, I can only appeal to the argument from silence in making my case. Use of this argument is only fallacious, however, when it is given as proof of a particular thing (which is why I suspect you asked for it right off). It can be made to serve appropriately and logically as strong evidence in favor of one's contention. No, the Bible doesn't explicitly exclude saints who have died from praying for those who live here on Earth -- there is no biblical proof that they should (or can) not do so. But, there is strong evidence, in the form of the complete absence of any statement at all concerning this matter in Scripture, that this doctrine has no place in the prayer life of a Christian - it certainly hasn't any in Scripture.

Couple of points:
1. It's Revelation, singular, not Revelations, plural

Ever heard the expression, "Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel"? There are shades of the meaning of this expression in your above comment.

2. No one said anything about burning, that's a total strawman

You mentioned smoke, which comes from...?

3. You have such a moronic argument (your argument, not you) going here, I cannot believe that you fight on

Uh huh. :roll:

4. The incense is figurative, illustrative. It is, as it is written, prayers of saints. It is handled/delivered/ mediated by Elders, and then presented/waved before the King.

Oh, I see, a thing is figurative when it suits you and not when it doesn't. A handy, but not very subtle, tactic...
:roll:

This does not constitute a rebuttal. Perhaps you could use a little bit of my alleged creativity.

It wasn't intended as a formal rebuttal. Your kind of creativity I can do without. Thanks.

I know You Are But What Am I does not constitute a competent rebuttal.

Yes, I know, which is why I haven't used it.

I see nothing in my answers to you that attacks anything but ideas. If I have, please post it to me so we can reveal OC's character flaws. Elsewise, you've got some 'splainin' to do, as to why you are turning this toward persons and not content.

Uh huh. :roll:

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Steve]

As an ex-RC from an ethnic parish, who converted to ethnic Eastern Orthodoxy, I grew up around the cultus of the Saints. I was most amused with the Orthodox 'fools for Christ'. There was some shmohawk whose claim to sanctity was throwing---you should excuse the expression---turds at the Czar's carriage as it went by. Another Orthodox gem was some loony female who used to run into the Czar's office, jump up on the desk and pee. Then we had St. Somebody of Yaroslavl or Irkutsk whose claim to fame was wandering through the steppes of Russia, and having no place to sleep, jumped into a 6-foot pile of cow dung for the night. Or, the Roman Catholic St. Christina the Astonishing, who lived in an oven. Or St. Joseph Cupertino, who went into ectasies and flew around the chapel ceiling. Yes, theres are abnormalities, but funny, AND are actual Saints!!! Some persons achieved great holiness, indeed. Some were just plain nuts, and would have been diagnosed so had they been living today. A lot of the stigmatics(people who recievd the wounds of Christ in their hands and feet) were female hysterics who contemplated too long upon crucifixes.
It was real interesting in seminary to have the Martyrology read during the meal; despite the blood and gore, many cases were some child making a vow of virginity at the age of two, and living an utterly spotless life, and being put to death at age 7 at the stake, with eyes rolled up to Heaven. Oy!

Personally, when I came to Jesus and accepted HIM and HIM ALONE as my Lord and Saviour, I had, and have, no need for anyone else. Any devotion I ever had to Saints(which was never much to begin with) fell away, as did any need for praying to the Blessed Mother.

I don't see the point over arguing over these things. I believe that when Christ is all in all, this devotion will indeed fall away, and in time the person will see the futility of it all and that it is a waste of time.

Theologically speaking, these folks(including the BVM) are dead. They are not omnipresent, nor omniscent; ergo, they cannot hear a gazillion prayers from all over the world at the same time. Only God can do that.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish the polemics of atheists against Christianity at large from the polemics of anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox Fundmanetalists. To whit:

As an ex-RC from an ethnic parish, who converted to ethnic Eastern Orthodoxy, I grew up around the cultus of the Saints. I was most amused with the Orthodox 'fools for Christ'. There was some shmohawk whose claim to sanctity was throwing---you should excuse the expression---turds at the Czar's carriage as it went by.

Then we have the story of Ezekiel lying on one side for months on end, naked as the day he was born, eating and warming over a fire made of human dung

Another Orthodox gem was some loony female who used to run into the Czar's office, jump up on the desk and pee.

And the story of the donkey who rebukes the prophet. Or the bears who devoured children for calling the prophet elisha 'cueball.'

Then we had St. Somebody of Yaroslavl or Irkutsk whose claim to fame was wandering through the steppes of Russia, and having no place to sleep, jumped into a 6-foot pile of cow dung for the night.

And the man of God Gideon who hid in a vat

Or, the Roman Catholic St. Christina the Astonishing, who lived in an oven. Or St. Joseph Cupertino, who went into ectasies and flew around the chapel ceiling.

Or Job who was swallwed by a whale, and Jesus who walked on water. Or phillip who simply was translated from here to there.

Yes, theres are abnormalities, but funny, AND are actual Saints!!! Some persons achieved great holiness, indeed.

Which might have something to do with why they're remembered, even if they did things you cannot believe in.

Some were just plain nuts, and would have been diagnosed so had they been living today.

As would have been many of the prophets of old, as would have the demon-possessed that the apostles set free. Were they really mentally ill, or do we live in an age of reason which blinds us to the genuine substance of the heavens?

A lot of the stigmatics(people who recievd the wounds of Christ in their hands and feet) were female hysterics who contemplated too long upon crucifixes.

So you say. I'm not sure.
Many Pentecostals are just talking gibberish, and many faith-healers are just using manipulation and mass hysteria. But some of each are not. Maybe lots of them are not. I personally knew George Stormount, who worked and travelled with Smith Wigglesworth. Brother George saw a pair of eyes appear in a child born blind, and saw Wigglesworth pray until a man dead came to life.

Now, I'm no fan of Wigglesworths' theology (Pentecostalism)- but if I've learned one thing, it's that God seems to use the oddballs/goofballs to speak to mankind. As it is written

Our dedication to Christ makes us look like fools, but you are so wise! We are weak, but you are so powerful! You are well thought of, but we are laughed at

It was real interesting in seminary to have the Martyrology read during the meal; despite the blood and gore, many cases were some child making a vow of virginity at the age of two, and living an utterly spotless life, and being put to death at age 7 at the stake, with eyes rolled up to Heaven. Oy!

"Out of the mouths of babes and infants you have perfected praise." Ask yourself how old Samuel was when he came to the Temple, or how old John the Baptist was when he leaped for joy in the presence of Christ

Personally, when I came to Jesus and accepted HIM and HIM ALONE as my Lord and Saviour, I had, and have, no need for anyone else. Any devotion I ever had to Saints(which was never much to begin with) fell away, as did any need for praying to the Blessed Mother.

Personally, having grown up in and chafing against the world of "me and Jesus, we got our own thing going," I realized early on that I was part of something that was a lot bigger than me, something timeless and unbound by the rational limits of time and space. Having already come to Christ, I simply embraced in Orthodoxy what I knew to be true already.

I don't see the point over arguing over these things. I believe that when Christ is all in all, this devotion will indeed fall away, and in time the person will see the futility of it all and that it is a waste of time.

When Christ brings this all to conclusion, we will spend eternity as the Church, the Bride of Christ. Some people will need to run and catch up on the concept of "WE"

Theologically speaking, these folks(including the BVM) are dead.

So sez you. Christ says otherwise- I'll take His word.

They are not omnipresent, nor omniscent;

2000 demons fit inside one possessed man. The spiritual realm is not like the physical realm. According to Christ, the Kingdom is within us. What exact amount of space does a spirit take up?
We live in two dimensions, flat on a piece of paper- they in three dimensions- and thus, from our reference point, they are everywhere. They are where God is, and He is everywhere.
See St Ephraim's commentary on the Genasserene Demonaic (Markan gospel) for further clarification.

ergo, they cannot hear a gazillion prayers from all over the world at the same time. Only God can do that.

They needn't. Eternity is not like time. Einstein demonstrated that time and space are interrelated- to be out of time is to be timeless. To be timeless means that one does not experience the passage of time as ticks of the second hand, in the manner we do. Each second is an eternity, and every piece of eternity as but a second.

But you won't agree, because your new found friends anthropomorphisize God, heaven, and eternity. This means that they understand each from human reference, and bow at the throne of Rationalism.

Not that they wish to, or even believe that they do- but there arguments are straight out of the Rationalist/materialist playbook, and their blissful state of having all the answers holds no appeal to me.

 

[Steve]

An answer for everything. That's the Orthodox for you. Fortunately, this is America. You are entitled your your belief and I am entitled to mine.

Me???? FUNDAMENTALIST??????? :smt040 That's funny. :-D

 

[Orthodox Christian]

An answer for everything.

On an apologetics forum- imagine that.

An answer for everything. That's the Orthodox for you.

On an apologetics forum, in an Orthodox thread. Imagine that.

An answer for everything. That's the Orthodox for you. Fortunately, this is America. You are entitled your your belief and I am entitled to mine.

To paraphrase: 'I have no answer, but I'm still going to do and say what I want.'
Yes, this must be America. That's the heterodox for you.

Me???? FUNDAMENTALIST??????? That's funny.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and spends time sniping at Catholics and Orthodox, it must be a Fundamentalist

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I said, and I quote "show me where I have used the phrase "pray to" on this forum" which you failed to do. I then explained what is said in the liturgy, and expanded on why this is in my last post (Elizabethan English)
Now stop whining

Do you want the quote in another language? I only have it in english, so here it is again -

"Now, internally, we say 'pray to' saint"

This statement appears on THIS FORUM. The "we", in context, refers to the Orthodox Church and YOU.

Even if I had used the phrase, it wouldn't change how it is I/We pray or to whom, in the ultimate sense. But you are not concerned with what we mean- ie, understanding us- but are rather interested in distorting our meaning- ie, seeking to injure us.

I expect this from Fundamentalists, and respond accordingly.

You DID use the phrase, and it WAS an admission that was influenced by my bringing to light quotes from Orthodox sources stating that they DO advocate praying to saints (however flexible your definition of "prayer" becomes when you're "inbetween a rock and a hard place")

(BTW - speaking of "whining", I hope you didn't tell your mommy that I am not concerned with understanding you but only in "injuring" you with my bad bad words? :roll

 

[BradtheImpaler]

And I'm still laughing at thoughts of you imagining that you are communicating with a Roman Emperor. I think that's a LOT funnier than "adolescent preening".

And that is just one among many differences between us, Brad. When I set out to be sarcastic, it's funny. When you set out to be sarcastic, it's as repulsive as watching a fat guy flex in the mirror

Or watching YOU in a "speedo" eating a chicken leg? :

So you really think you're funny? We're learning more and more about your ego everyday 8-)