OSAS discussion without using scripture

[gr8grace3]

Yeah, I hear you brother. I hate money. money is probably the biggest scam of all time...and people act like it's worth something, lol!

We are not to be slaves to money, money is to be our slave.

The teaching that we are to hate money is the scam. We are to make it our slave. Most believers just don't have the capacity to have a lot of money,so God doesn't bless them with a lot of it.

Paul received a financial Gift from the Philippians that was worth thousands. It was enough for Paul to not "work" for the rest of his life and ministry. Paul did not hate it,he made it his slave. And He had the capacity to handle it.

Philippians 4:18~~18 But I have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God.

The Philippians(spiritually mature) didn't hate their money(They were WEALTHY) they made it their slave and used it for furthering Gods plan.

 

[follower]

Yeshua just simply said several things like if anyone doesn't hate their life they can't be my disciple, if anyone loves the world or the things of the world they can't be a child of Yhvh, love of money is the root of ALL evil, you can't serve Yhvh and mammon, and so on.

In line with all Scripture , Genesis through Revelation, and Grace in Yeshua and Yhvh's teaching personally,
I haven't found anyone anywhere yet who collects money to keep it, or who seeks more money just to have more money, and also serves Yhvh.

 

[follower]

an emissary of Yeshua said of the men who served Him and were chosen by Him to follow Him and to live like Him >>>

1 Corinthians 4:11 (KJ21) | In Context | Whole Chapter
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger and thirst, and are naked and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place,

1 Corinthians 4:11 (ASV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling-place;

1 Corinthians 4:11 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
11 To this hour we have gone both hungry and thirsty; we [habitually] wear but one undergarment [and shiver in the cold]; we are roughly knocked about and wander around homeless.

1 Corinthians 4:11 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
11 Up to this very moment we are hungry, thirsty, wearing rags, abused, and homeless.

1 Corinthians 4:11 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
11 Till this very moment we go hungry and thirsty, we are dressed in rags, we are treated roughly, we wander from place to place,

 

[gr8grace3]

Yeshua just simply said several things like if anyone doesn't hate their life they can't be my disciple, if anyone loves the world or the things of the world they can't be a child of Yhvh, love of money is the root of ALL evil, you can't serve Yhvh and mammon, and so on.

In line with all Scripture , Genesis through Revelation, and Grace in Yeshua and Yhvh's teaching personally,
I haven't found anyone anywhere yet who collects money to keep it, or who seeks more money just to have more money, and also serves Yhvh.

So, if we have no money and have to hate it, we can't do these things.....

Matt 25~~35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

And the Philippians, who had a lot of money, because they were not self righteous and were spiritually mature. They Had the capacity to have wealth.

Turned Paul from this......

1 Corinthians 4:11 (ASV)
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling-place;

To this......

Philippians 4:18~~18 But I have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God.

 

[follower]

the spiritual perspective and appraisal of all things is rare, and requires giving up everything for the sake of the Gospel.
not too many people, probably no one you know, can or have done this. it is rare. of course.

read acts of the apostles though, and ephesians, and the first three chapters of Revelation, and Psalms 1
for examples of those who freely gave up everything
and called nothing their own,
and the results of Yhvh's work in their life through Yeshua HaMashiach by faith in His Name.

other poeple who retain some worldly possessions 'as if their own' may or may not receive various blessings from Yhvh always in line with all of His Word.

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul said God does that SO THEY CAN BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD. Sinning saints are not automatically saved 'no mater what', or else it would not be necessary to punish believers who stray from their faith in order that they can be saved in the Day of the Lord.

So, it's all about sin, huh? Since everyone sins, how does anyone get in?

It is necessary that the believer continue in the faith and obedience to the gospel that they started out with.

So, both faith and obedience. And any sin will get one out.

Let me ask you: if one does lose salvation, can it be regained? And if so, how so, per Scripture?

God does what he has to do to convince the sinning saint to come back to his senses so he can be saved on the Day of Christ, not destroyed. Some respond to God's correction, some don't. We know that the Corinthian fellow did repent. And because he did HE CAN BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD, not destroyed.

Except Paul already noted in 1 Cor that he would be saved, even though Satan would destroy his flesh.

I couldn't define what an Arminian is to save my life. But I think if you're non-OSAS you are immediately categorized as an Arminian(?)

I've not met any Arminians who believed in eternal security.

But anyway, I'm non-OSAS, and the reward waiting for the worker of the gospel is the people he led to salvation, or who he encouraged and built up in their salvation, and who then 'held out the Word of Life' to the very end and are saved, not destroyed for turning back.

So your reward will be people? What are you planning to do with your reward? Play with them?

 

[Edward]

We are not to be slaves to money, money is to be our slave.

The teaching that we are to hate money is the scam. We are to make it our slave. Most believers just don't have the capacity to have a lot of money,so God doesn't bless them with a lot of it.

Paul received a financial Gift from the Philippians that was worth thousands. It was enough for Paul to not "work" for the rest of his life and ministry. Paul did not hate it,he made it his slave. And He had the capacity to handle it.

Philippians 4:18~~18 But I have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God.

The Philippians(spiritually mature) didn't hate their money(They were WEALTHY) they made it their slave and used it for furthering Gods plan.

I'm sorry brother...I'm not following your train of thought at all. What?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, it's all about sin, huh? Since everyone sins, how does anyone get in?

Everyone who gets in, gets in--and stays in--by their faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of their sins. The person who walks away from their faith in Christ's blood no longer has the forgiveness of sin that blood gives. They are no longer qualified to be in the kingdom.

So, both faith and obedience.

There's no such thing as faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins that does not also lead a person into a life of obedience. That's why a lifestyle of obedience is the proof of faith. But so many in the church think that faith without the evidence of that faith is a faith that can save them, in direct contradiction to what James plainly says.

And any sin will get one out.

Only the sin that represents a turning away from the forgiveness of God. All other sin, obviously, is covered by the forgiveness of God in Christ through your faith in that forgiveness and, therefore, will not be held to your account and can't keep you out of the kingdom.

Let me ask you: if one does lose salvation, can it be regained?

No. Once you lose it, it's over. And I'm convinced that God is not quick to turn a person over to their decision to no longer rely on the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins (a decision evidenced by a return to a lifestyle of sin). Like the poor fellow at Corinth who Paul said must be turned over to satan so he can be saved in the day of the Lord. But so many in the church claim the fellow was saved all along and did not have to be turned over to satan to be saved in the day of the Lord. Again, in direct contradiction to what the passage plainly says.

Except Paul already noted in 1 Cor that he would be saved, even though Satan would destroy his flesh.

If by being turned over to satan for the destruction of his carnal desire he comes to repentance then he can be saved in the day of the Lord. It makes so sense that merely leaving the body now makes it so he can be saved in the day of the Lord.

I've not met any Arminians who believed in eternal security.

Then I must not be Arminian because I believe in eternal security. Faith is the security of salvation. Stop having faith in the blood of Christ and you lose what makes salvation secure for you.

So your reward will be people? What are you planning to do with your reward? Play with them?

Paul plainly said people will be the source of my reward--my crown of joy and exultation--on the Day of Christ, IF they continue to the end to be that which they were built up into, holding fast the word of life proving themselves to be blameless and innocent. But if they leave their faith in Christ, Christ will no longer be available to them to make them blameless and innocent before God. They won't be there on the Day of Christ to be a source of reward for me. My labor will have been in vain.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This is a conversation for the growth of heretical ideas. I am a OSAS believer, based on what my LORD has instructed in His recorded Word.

First of all, the scriptures are the Final Court of Arbitration until the time that Jesus walks through that gate in Jerusalem. This is applicable now to every person on this Earth and remains so until He returns. When one does as Jim Jones, the Waco Wacko and others, and gets others to put the Truth on the table, closed, he is teaching the weak of mind... silly!

 

[FreeGrace]

Everyone who gets in, gets in--and stays in--by their faith in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of their sins.

So, we're saved by our faith, huh? Nah. We are saved by Christ, by grace, through faith. And remember, there are no verses that say one is saved by continued faith.

The person who walks away from their faith in Christ's blood no longer has the forgiveness of sin that blood gives. They are no longer qualified to be in the kingdom.

No, your faith does not save you. You WERE saved by Christ when you believed. You stay saved because there is nothing that can separate you from the love of Christ.

There's no such thing as faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins that does not also lead a person into a life of obedience.

That's a very naive view. Of course children rebel against their parents. Which is why the Bible warns of discipline, and loss of eternal rewards, plus the promise of eternal reward for the faithful.

That's why a lifestyle of obedience is the proof of faith.

It's an evidence. Lack of a lifetyle of obedience is an evidence of rebellion.

But so many in the church think that faith without the evidence of that faith is a faith that can save them, in direct contradiction to what James plainly says.

James has been greatly misunderstood. His point was that those of faith need to demonstrate their faith to others.

Only the sin that represents a turning away from the forgiveness of God.

So, your view is that Jesus didn't die for every sin, then. Sad. The Bible does not say that He died for most, nearly all, sins. He died for all sins.

All other sin, obviously, is covered by the forgiveness of God in Christ through your faith in that forgiveness and, therefore, will not be held to your account and can't keep you out of the kingdom.

This opinion is not found in Scripture.

No. Once you lose it, it's over.

Please support this opinion with Scripture that is clear and unambiguous.

And I'm convinced that God is not quick to turn a person over to their decision to no longer rely on the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins (a decision evidenced by a return to a lifestyle of sin). Like the poor fellow at Corinth who Paul said must be turned over to satan so he can be saved in the day of the Lord. But so many in the church claim the fellow was saved all along and did not have to be turned over to satan to be saved in the day of the Lord. Again, in direct contradiction to what the passage plainly says.

Sure; "plainly says". As if there are any verses that support your view. There are none. For a verse to "plainly say" that one can lose their salvation, we need to see the words "lose" and "salvation", and how it's lost. Whre are they?

If by being turned over to satan for the destruction of his carnal desire he comes to repentance then he can be saved in the day of the Lord.

Please review the verse again. Nothing about subjunctive mood here.

It makes so sense that merely leaving the body now makes it so he can be saved in the day of the Lord.

That's not what the verse says.

Then I must not be Arminian because I believe in eternal security. Faith is the security of salvation.

Unfortunately, your so-called security is based on your actions. My security is totally IN Christ, regardless of "the present or the future", as Paul noted, in Rom 8:38.

Stop having faith in the blood of Christ and you lose what makes salvation secure for you.

So, what verse actually and plainly says this? I keep getting a lot of opinions, but no unambiguous verses that say that.

Paul plainly said people will be the source of my reward--my crown of joy and exultation--on the Day of Christ, IF they continue to the end to be that which they were built up into, holding fast the word of life proving themselves to be blameless and innocent.

Review all the verses on reward, and it will be clear that people are NOT the reward. Even in your response here, you note that people are the source of the reward, but that it NOT the reward.

But if they leave their faith in Christ, Christ will no longer be available to them to make them blameless and innocent before God.

What do you mean "will no longer be available to them"? Sounds like the sacrifice just keeps on going on only for those who continue to believe. Jesus died "once and for all". He's always available. Again, your opinion cannot be supported from Scripture.

 

[WIP]

No, your faith does not save you. You WERE saved by Christ when you believed. You stay saved because there is nothing that can separate you from the love of Christ.

A thought came to mind as I read this. Does Christ love the lost or does He only love us after we are saved?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, we're saved by our faith, huh? Nah. We are saved by Christ, by grace, through faith. And remember, there are no verses that say one is saved by continued faith.

Yes, through faith. Lose that faith and you no longer have that which you are saved through.

No, your faith does not save you. You WERE saved by Christ when you believed. You stay saved because there is nothing that can separate you from the love of Christ.

Except unbelief.

That's a very naive view. Of course children rebel against their parents. Which is why the Bible warns of discipline, and loss of eternal rewards, plus the promise of eternal reward for the faithful.

Redefining salvation is simply a deceitful way to protect a predetermined doctrine that the plain words of scripture simply do not support.

It's an evidence. Lack of a lifetyle of obedience is an evidence of rebellion.

Yes, the rebellion of unbelief.

James has been greatly misunderstood. His point was that those of faith need to demonstrate their faith to others.

...because the faith that can save you is the faith that can be seen. Faith that can not be seen is the faith that can not save. That's because the faith that can not be seen is not faith in Christ.

So, your view is that Jesus didn't die for every sin, then. Sad. The Bible does not say that He died for most, nearly all, sins. He died for all sins.

Except the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which he said will not be forgiven this age nor the age to come. (You know why I embolden the last part).

Please support this opinion with Scripture that is clear and unambiguous.

The Bible says it's impossible to be renewed to repentance after you fall away.

I'll be back...heading out the door to wrap up some brain surgeries.

 

[JLB]

This is a conversation for the growth of heretical ideas. I am a OSAS believer, based on what my LORD has instructed in His recorded Word.

First of all, the scriptures are the Final Court of Arbitration until the time that Jesus walks through that gate in Jerusalem. This is applicable now to every person on this Earth and remains so until He returns. When one does as Jim Jones, the Waco Wacko and others, and gets others to put the Truth on the table, closed, he is teaching the weak of mind... silly!

Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


So where is your scripture that teaches us no one can lose their salvation after their saved?

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." ... 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 5:9-12, 6:9-10


JLB

 

[JLB]

A thought came to mind as I read this. Does Christ love the lost or does He only love us after we are saved?

God loves the world.

Will all the world be saved?

Unless one believes in Universal Reconciliation, the answer is no.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

A thought came to mind as I read this. Does Christ love the lost or does He only love us after we are saved?

There are 2 kinds of love. Paul defined "love" in 1 Cor 13 as being "kind and patient", among other things. We see that demonstrated in the work of Christ on the cross. He certainly was kind and patient towards all men, by dying for their sins.

And, Scripture describes another kind of love; that of love between God and His children. Certainly parents are to be more than just "kind and patient" with their children. This is a relationship type of love, that transcends the love that we are commanded for everyone, even our enemies.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, through faith. Lose that faith and you no longer have that which you are saved through.

This has become quite an 'old saw', huh. There are no verses that support this line of thought. We are at an impasse over this. No need for further discussion.

Until someone finds a verse that actually teaches that one is saved only so long as they believe, there is no need to believe that 'old saw'.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

This has been thoroughly explained to you. But you refuse to accept it.

If this is a list of what will keep people out of heaven, then Christ did NOT die for those sins. Logical conclusion.

So where is your scripture that teaches us no one can lose their salvation after their saved?

2 come to mind.

First, the picture of our Heavenly Father holding onto His children, in John 10:28-29. It is the parent who holds securely to his child, not the other way around, as your view supports.

Second, there is nothing in the present, or future, that will separate His children from His love, Rom 8:38.

But you've rejected these verses as well. So there isn't anything left to discuss.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person." ... 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 5:9-12, 6:9-10JLB

Again, is this is a list of the sins that Christ didn't die for? Yet, Scripture teaches that He takes away the sin of the world, per John 1:29.

Your view cannot be supported from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

God loves the world.

Will all the world be saved?

Unless one believes in Universal Reconciliation, the answer is no.JLB

Irrelevant. He demonstrated His love by dying on the cross for ALL sins of ALL men. By which He purchased the free gift of eternal life for everyone. How is that not a demonstration of His love?

The issue always has been whether one wants to receive that gift.

 

[JLB]

Brother,

this is scripture.

Scripture teaches plainly -

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Clearly Paul warns us that Christian who live like this and practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside?


Read these plain and clear words for yourself!

People who live like this, and never repent of these things will not be received in God's Kingdom on the day of Judgement!


You can't explain these words away.


Do you honestly believe homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God?

Homosexuals who live and practice this lifestyle and die as Homosexuals who never repent of this will never be a part of God's kingdom.

Why would we think it is any different for Adulterers or Idolaters?


If you go around teaching people that they can live as a homosexual, or an Idolater or an Adulterer and still be saved on the day of judgement, then you sir are spreading another Gospel.


Christ died for the sins of the world, if the world doesn't repent, then the world will not be forgiven.

Christ died for my sins, if I don't repent of my sins and confess them and ask for forgiveness then I will not be forgiven.

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.1 John 2:1-5

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. 1 John 2:28-29



JLB

 

[WIP]

God loves the world.

Will all the world be saved?

Unless one believes in Universal Reconciliation, the answer is no.


JLB

Am I understanding you correctly that you believe Christ does not love the lost?