OSAS is biblical truth. - Part 2

[MarkT]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

See how God decided what would be. Not Pharaoh.

Of course God decided what to do. However His decision was based of Pharaoh's actions.



JLB

That seems to be the common misconception.

But the truth is the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. Ex. 4:21

Did the LORD not harden Pharaoh's heart? Could Pharaoh resist the LORD? Could he decide to let the people go? No. The LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.” Ex. 10:1-2

Did the LORD not make sport of Pharaoh? Did he not harden Pharaoh's heart? Why did he do that? To make himself known to Moses that he was the Lord.

1. Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you

2. Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.”

Referring to this Paul wrote

For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. Ro. 9:17-19

Was Pharaoh destroyed for his actions? No. He was destroyed so that God's name would be proclaimed in all the earth so that everyone shall know that he is the Lord.

 

[gr8grace]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

See how God decided what would be. Not Pharaoh.

Of course God decided what to do. However His decision was based of Pharaoh's actions.



JLB

That seems to be the common misconception.

But the truth is the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. Ex. 4:21

Did the LORD not harden Pharaoh's heart? Could Pharaoh resist the LORD? Could he decide to let the people go? No. The LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.” Ex. 10:1-2

Did the LORD not make sport of Pharaoh? Did he not harden Pharaoh's heart?

1. Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you

2. Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.”

Referring to this Paul wrote

For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. Ro. 9:17-19

Was Pharaoh destroyed for his actions? No. He was destroyed so that God's name would be proclaimed in all the earth so that everyone shall know that he is the Lord.

Exo 10:3~~So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the
God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me ...

 

[MarkT]

Exo 10:3~~So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the
God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me ...

This is the point or the sport of it all. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.” Ex. 10:1-2

 

[MarkT]

So why did God do these things? To make himself known. To perform the wonders. To let the Israelites know he was God.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh will not listen to you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.” Ex. 11:9

The entire Pharaoh incident was to make himself known to the Israelites.

 

[reba]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt. I don't read that verse to include only the Israelites .....

 

[MarkT]

There's the storybook version of Moses and the Ten Commandments. You know the movie. Gotta laugh.

 

[MarkT]

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt. I don't read that verse to include only the Israelites .....

Who do you think it includes? God chose them to be a people for his own possession. “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth. Deut. 7:6

After showing them all those wonders in Egypt, he destroyed that whole generation in the desert because of their unbelief.

 

[reba]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

Yup I agree but we also know some Egyptians went with them to the wilderness I just believe it includes those who believed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Exo 10:3~~So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the
God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me ...

This is the point or the sport of it all. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.” Ex. 10:1-2

You are aware that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, right?

God made firm that which Pharaoh himself chose. And he did it to bring glory to himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: OSAS is biblical truth.

Yup I agree but we also know some Egyptians went with them to the wilderness I just believe it includes those who believed.

Every time I see you or another mod has posted last I look to see if the thread is padlocked, lol.

 

[gr8grace]

Exo 10:3~~So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the
God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me ...

This is the point or the sport of it all. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.” Ex. 10:1-2

You are aware that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, right?

God made firm that which Pharaoh himself chose. And he did it to bring glory to himself.

The thing that gets me Jethro, is that some think that this is God "Sporting" with Pharaohs personal, eternal salvation. What Kind of God do we have if we read the Exodus as God "sporting" with heaven or Hell for an individual?

Its like looking at everyone who did not get into the promised land as Hell bound. Heck, Moses didn't get to enter the promised land, is Moses in Hell?

 

[MarkT]

Exo 10:3~~So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the
God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me ...

This is the point or the sport of it all. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.” Ex. 10:1-2

You are aware that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, right?

God made firm that which Pharaoh himself chose. And he did it to bring glory to himself.

No. I'm not aware of that. You want to make stuff up? Does the Bible say that? No.

Pharaoh would not listen to Moses. Why? Because God hardened his heart. Ex. 4:21 'Who is the LORD that I should heed his voice and let Israel go' Pharaoh didn't choose to not know the LORD. It wasn't his choice to obey the word of God. God hardened his heart so that he would not let the people of Israel go. It says that in Ex. 4:21

Why is your heart hardened to the truth? Why can't you believe it? Is it your choice? No. You don't believe it because you can't. Just like Pharaoh could not believe Moses. God hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

 

[WIP]

Let's try to keep this discussion less personal. Ask for sources when we disagree and provide sources when we feel we are correct.

 

[MarkT]

Exo 10:3~~So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the
God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me ...

This is the point or the sport of it all. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses.

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.” Ex. 10:1-2

You are aware that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, right?

God made firm that which Pharaoh himself chose. And he did it to bring glory to himself.

The thing that gets me Jethro, is that some think that this is God "Sporting" with Pharaohs personal, eternal salvation. What Kind of God do we have if we read the Exodus as God "sporting" with heaven or Hell for an individual?

Its like looking at everyone who did not get into the promised land as Hell bound. Heck, Moses didn't get to enter the promised land, is Moses in Hell?

I'm not judging Pharaoh. He has an excuse if God hardened his heart. If God hardened his heart, then he can make an appeal to God at the judgment. But I tell you it will go better for Pharaoh on that day than it will for many Christians. What excuse does the 'Christian' who opposes the truth have? You're supposed to be the light of the world. But if the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! Mt. 6:23

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are aware that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, right?

God made firm that which Pharaoh himself chose. And he did it to bring glory to himself.

No. I'm not aware of that. You want to make stuff up? Does the Bible say that? No.

"15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said." (Exodus 8:15 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why is your heart hardened to the truth? Why can't you believe it? Is it your choice? No. You don't believe it because you can't. Just like Pharaoh could not believe Moses. God hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

But I bet you'll keep trying to convince me anyway.

 

[MarkT]

"15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said." (Exodus 8:15 NASB)[/QUOTE]

It says, 'as the LORD had said'. What did the LORD say? Ex. 7:2-4 'You shall speak all that I command you; and Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you; then I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my hosts, my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.' Ex. 8:15 refers back to Ex. 7:2-4

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Mark, it plainly says HE, Pharaoh, hardened his heart. We see later that God did indeed do exactly what he said he would do. God hardened Pharaoh's heart right where Pharaoh himself hardened it first. God turns everybody over to the decision to have the hardness of heart to the truth they chose to have.

"...the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason (they did not love the truth) God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NASB)

 

[MarkT]

Mark, it plainly says HE, Pharaoh, hardened his heart. We see later that God did indeed do exactly what he said he would do. God hardened Pharaoh's heart right where Pharaoh himself hardened it first. God turns everybody over to the decision to have the hardness of heart to the truth they chose to have.

I know it says he hardened his heart, but with the caveat, 'as the Lord had said'. Where does it say he hardened his heart first? The scripture says 'as the Lord had said' referring to what he said he would do in 7:2-4

Each time Pharaoh said he would let the people of Israel go, the LORD hardened his heart. Pharaoh said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you. Ex. 10:16 The LORD ended the plague but he hardened Pharaoh's heart. After the darkness, he hardened Pharaoh's heart. After Moses went to Pharaoh to tell him of the last plague, the LORD hardened his heart, and he did not let he people go. 11:10 Then came the plague, and he let the people go. Then the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he pursued them. You can not just dismiss this demonstration of the power of God. The world's most powerful man could not resist the will of God. You can not dismiss it and say it was Pharaoh's choice. Absolutely not. As Paul reminds us and takes us back to what he did to Pharaoh, you can not make it Pharaoh's choice and dismiss the LORD.

 

[JLB]

"15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said." (Exodus 8:15 NASB)

It says, 'as the LORD had said'. What did the LORD say? Ex. 7:2-4 'You shall speak all that I command you; and Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you; then I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my hosts, my people the sons of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.' Ex. 8:15 refers back to Ex. 7:2-4[/QUOTE]

God would not be just if He took a righteous man and hardened him against Himself, just so He could show His power.

Pharaoh had already hardened himself in his pride, to oppose God and His people.

Pharaoh had already given himself over to pride and the dictates of his own desires.

Therefore as God said - But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you;



JLB