OSAS is biblical truth.

[George Muller]

This whole idea of uses other believers doubts to cast "doubt" upon their salvation, is "so" unbiblical and ungodly that it makes me wonder at the heart and intention of some who practice such evil?

I don't know how someone could have the audacity to say this about the authors of the Bible.

They don't do it to destroy people. They do it to make us soberly assess whether we really have the unseen Holy Spirit or not.

The way you can tell if you are a 'planting of God' and have the Holy Spirit is by the fruit of the Spirit.

"33 “...the tree is known by its fruit." (Matthew 12:33 NASB)

So this isn't about 'unsaving' people. This is about making sure people know they have the Holy Spirit. The church is chock full of people who claim to have a relationship with God but who show no evidence of that. This forum has them, too. Biblically we can discern for ourselves whether we're dealing with a believer or not by how they treat us in the forums.

Which raises another point. Jesus talked about what will happen to the servant who, while waiting for the Master to return, begins to eat and drink and get drunk and beat his fellow servants. His end was not good. OSAS says he's as good as gold. Jesus said he was cast out to the place of weeping and the gnashing of teeth, the fiery furnace. Jesus did not warn us that way to 'unsave' us. That is ridiculous. He warned us so we can be prepared, and STAY prepared, for the Day of his return and AVOID the fiery furnace of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:42-51 NASB)

How's that for a Sunday morning cup of coffee to wake you up?

No, we are commanded to strengthen those who are weak in faith, not condemn them by making vain and unbiblical points or by using the scriptures in a way to cause them to stumble. I doubt those who have such things in their heart as to weaken the faith of other believers, have any understanding of the scriptures of their true biblical purpose. Shame is for those who cause the weak believers to stumble, when if they had a sincere heart they would seek to encourage them in their struggles. One can see very clearly that those who practice such things are far from the truth of Christ.

 

[dadof10]

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.

I'm in the middle of packing for a move, but I had to comment here. This is, indeed the heart of the matter. Scripture NOWHERE says we can not reject Christ, or we can not toss ourselves into "the lake of fire", or we can not "cast ourselves out", NOWHERE. The verses posted don't speak to our view at all, namely, that WE MUST STAY FAITHFUL, which is all any of us non-OSASers are saying. Nothing more. The other side can try and paint us as "works salvation" types, but to anyone with an open mind it's obvious this is a straw-man.

 

[gr8grace]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

The argument is not that God will not toss believers into the lake of fire. He will toss those who never believed, or who stopped believing into the lake of fire. The evidence of their lack, or loss of faith being their sinful lifestyles.

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

What OSASer's don't pay attention to is the condition of believing that accompanies the various verses about eternal security they use to defend their doctrine.

Jesus said the one who believes is the one who has eternal life and does not come into judgment and has passed from death to life. Somehow this came to be understood that one can stop believing and what Jesus said is still true, that you will still have the sure promise of salvation.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

Entirely true...if you keep on 'having faith', a.k.a. 'believing'.

It's one thing to know something is true. That is what the gift of faith is--to know that something is true. It's another thing to believe, putting your trust in that which God has shown you to be true through the gift of faith.

Many people reject that which the Holy Spirit convicts them about is true. Some accept what the Spirit shows them to be true about the gospel and repent, but eventually return to their unbelief. OSAS will say one of two things about this: 1) They were never really saved to begin with, or closely related they'll say 2) it's impossible to stop believing. But, interestingly enough, some OSASer's will say the person who does that--stops believing--is still saved anyway, because that's how gracious and undeserved and utterly independent of what we 'do' salvation is. That's a horrible distortion of grace. Jesus himself said the 'work' of man is to believe. Paul contrasts this 'work', the work of having faith, with all other righteous work. The only 'work' that can secure a declaration of righteousness is the 'work' of believing.

A denial is just a denial Jethro. You are a great thinker and have a Gift of looking at things from a deeper perspective in a lot of things. I respect that. But this thread is about verses and breaking the verses down.

In the periphrastic perfect that was presented from Eph 2:8, one very important part to remember is the "have been saved". Its a dogmatic statement.

From your explanation, you are saying that Eph 2:8 really doesn't say what I have presented. Show me that Eph 2:8 doesn't say what I presented and that it really says "except if you...."

 

[JLB]

This whole idea of uses other believers doubts to cast "doubt" upon their salvation, is "so" unbiblical and ungodly that it makes me wonder at the heart and intention of some who practice such evil?

I don't know how someone could have the audacity to say this about the authors of the Bible.

They don't do it to destroy people. They do it to make us soberly assess whether we really have the unseen Holy Spirit or not.

The way you can tell if you are a 'planting of God' and have the Holy Spirit is by the fruit of the Spirit.

"33 “...the tree is known by its fruit." (Matthew 12:33 NASB)

So this isn't about 'unsaving' people. This is about making sure people know they have the Holy Spirit. The church is chock full of people who claim to have a relationship with God but who show no evidence of that. This forum has them, too. Biblically we can discern for ourselves whether we're dealing with a believer or not by how they treat us in the forums.

Which raises another point. Jesus talked about what will happen to the servant who, while waiting for the Master to return, begins to eat and drink and get drunk and beat his fellow servants. His end was not good. OSAS says he's as good as gold. Jesus said he was cast out to the place of weeping and the gnashing of teeth, the fiery furnace. Jesus did not warn us that way to 'unsave' us. That is ridiculous. He warned us so we can be prepared, and STAY prepared, for the Day of his return and AVOID the fiery furnace of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:42-51 NASB)

How's that for a Sunday morning cup of coffee to wake you up?

No, we are commanded to strengthen those who are weak in faith, not condemn them by making vain and unbiblical points or by using the scriptures in a way to cause them to stumble. I doubt those who have such things in their heart as to weaken the faith of other believers, have any understanding of the scriptures of their true biblical purpose. Shame is for those who cause the weak believers to stumble, when if they had a sincere heart they would seek to encourage them in their struggles. One can see very clearly that those who practice such things are far from the truth of Christ.

To walk the path of Life, is a walk of balance; not looking to the left hand, nor to the right.

If a person is downcast and needs encouragement about their salvation, then there are plenty of scriptures to encourage that person and build them up, as well as assure them God loves them and will never leave them nor forsake them.

Likewise, if a person becomes careless with the grace that God has so generously bestowed upon them, then there are scriptures to sober them up and turn them away from all manner of evil.

To discern this is Wisdom.

To walk in this, is to be led by the Spirit.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

Lets start with Eph 2:8 for starters. John 5:24 is the dogmatic verse that Jesus spoke on this earth that pertained to the doctrine of eternal security in His word.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

You know it could be that those who reject the truth of salvation are just not saved? For a drowning man will always seek to pull under those who are around him. The God that knows the beginning from the end, does not go around saving people that He did not intend to save. That's just foolish.

I would say that most everybody that participates here is a saved person. Everybody is just at different stages in their walk. God is not willing that any should perish.And I believe that He is going to be more successful than not in that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have seen that none in your camp will just deal with verses that out right point to eternal security. just deny them, which does nothing for your position.

You're speaking generally, of course, right?

I addressed the point of why OSASer's skip past the 'belieiving' part of the passages they use to defend OSAS.

Salvation is conditioned on believing. Take away believing and you no longer have the condition for salvation.

The surety of your salvation is your faith, and your continuing faith, in the promise of God.

Look at this passage:

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:3-9 NASB)

Here is everything we've all been talking about.

vs. 4 The sureness of the hope we have waiting for us.

vs. 5 Faith is the power that guards that hope for us.

vs. 7 The testing and validating of faith by how it acts under fire to see if it's of the quality that can persevere and guard the hope we profess.

vs. 7, 9 The perseverance and outcome of faith is indeed about a future appointment in time, the Day of Judgment.


I'm not a pastor, but if I was I could craft quite a sermon just out of these few verses. It's deep.

 

[gr8grace]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

Lets start with Eph 2:8 for starters. John 5:24 is the dogmatic verse that Jesus spoke on this earth that pertained to the doctrine of eternal security in His word.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

You have been saved, however what will be true at the end of your life and faith...

For it is written, the end of you faith is the salvation of your soul, NOT the beginning of your faith, the end of your faith.

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

And again -

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

... Those who endure to the end will be saved.


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

... Believes in Him who sent Me.

Believes here means to obey.

Those who do the will of My Father in heaven will enter...

Why do you call me Lord and not do what I say...


There's a whole lot of life to live between a person's initial salvation experience and the end of their life.

Believe all of His word, fear and tremble, humble yourself and be quick to repent, pray often, obey Him when He ask's you to do something.

Love God and your neighbor.

If you continue in these things, you will do well.


JLB

So you do not believe what Eph 2:8 is really saying. Show me how Eph 2:8 really does not say "you HAVE been saved"

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

 

[George Muller]

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.

I'm in the middle of packing for a move, but I had to comment here. This is, indeed the heart of the matter. Scripture NOWHERE says we can not reject Christ, or we can not toss ourselves into "the lake of fire", or we can not "cast ourselves out", NOWHERE. The verses posted don't speak to our view at all, namely, that WE MUST STAY FAITHFUL, which is all any of us non-OSASers are saying. Nothing more. The other side can try and paint us as "works salvation" types, but to anyone with an open mind it's obvious this is a straw-man.

Well all the "non-OSASers" I have ever encountered are trying to justify themselves by "works" in some way and have themselves all rejected true faith. "for the law is not of faith" and any conversation that relates to "turning from faith" must begin at that truth or else it is a false discussion all together. The fact that these OSAS folks believe the scriptures and the promises of God as it relates to His Grace, prove in a clear way that they are in fact "faithful" and have all reason to have all confidence in their salvation. The fact that those who seek to justify themselves by "works-free-will etc..." Prove they are those who are not saved, nor should they have confidence in salvation, this is Gods System... "TO THOSE WHO HAVE, MORE WILL BE GIVEN, TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT EVEN THAT WHICH THEY HAVE WILL BE TAKEN AWAY" So what we really have is "unsaved" people trying to bring their doubts and unbelief upon those who are saved. The question is not is OSAS true, but why are so many rejecting salvation?

 

[reba]

You better hide again JLB politely said and agreeable

To walk the path of Life, is a walk of balance; not looking to the left hand, nor to the right.

If a person is downcast and needs encouragement about their salvation, then there are plenty of scriptures to encourage that person and build them up, as well as assure them God loves them and will never leave them nor forsake them.

Likewise, if a person becomes careless with the grace that God has so generously bestowed upon them, then there are scriptures to sober them up and turn them away from all manner of evil.

To discern this is Wisdom.

To walk in this, is to be led by the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

The argument is not that God will not toss believers into the lake of fire. He will toss those who never believed, or who stopped believing into the lake of fire. The evidence of their lack, or loss of faith being their sinful lifestyles.

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.




What OSASer's don't pay attention to is the condition of believing that accompanies the various verses about eternal security they use to defend their doctrine.

Jesus said the one who believes is the one who has eternal life and does not come into judgment and has passed from death to life. Somehow this came to be understood that one can stop believing and what Jesus said is still true, that you will still have the sure promise of salvation.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

Entirely true...if you keep on 'having faith', a.k.a. 'believing'.

It's one thing to know something is true. That is what the gift of faith is--to know that something is true. It's another thing to believe, putting your trust in that which God has shown you to be true through the gift of faith.

Many people reject that which the Holy Spirit convicts them about is true. Some accept what the Spirit shows them to be true about the gospel and repent, but eventually return to their unbelief. OSAS will say one of two things about this: 1) They were never really saved to begin with, or closely related they'll say 2) it's impossible to stop believing. But, interestingly enough, some OSASer's will say the person who does that--stops believing--is still saved anyway, because that's how gracious and undeserved and utterly independent of what we 'do' salvation is. That's a horrible distortion of grace. Jesus himself said the 'work' of man is to believe. Paul contrasts this 'work', the work of having faith, with all other righteous work. The only 'work' that can secure a declaration of righteousness is the 'work' of believing.

A denial is just a denial Jethro. You are a great thinker and have a Gift of looking at things from a deeper perspective in a lot of things. I respect that. But this thread is about verses and breaking the verses down.

In the periphrastic perfect that was presented from Eph 2:8, one very important part to remember is the "have been saved". Its a dogmatic statement.

From your explanation, you are saying that Eph 2:8 really doesn't say what I have presented. Show me that Eph 2:8 doesn't say what I presented and that it really says "except if you...."

You have been shown, you just refuse to see it, so I will expound some more.


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

This scripture states that a person " has been" saved.


23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

This scripture says you will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith by which you WERE SAVED.

9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

This scripture says you WILL BE SAVED at the END of your faith.


In summary -

You have been saved.

You are being saved, IF you continue in the faith..

You will be saved at the end of your faith.


When you receive your resurrected immortal body, then you are saved.


27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

Those who endure to the end will be saved!


JLB

 

[George Muller]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

Lets start with Eph 2:8 for starters. John 5:24 is the dogmatic verse that Jesus spoke on this earth that pertained to the doctrine of eternal security in His word.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

You know it could be that those who reject the truth of salvation are just not saved? For a drowning man will always seek to pull under those who are around him. The God that knows the beginning from the end, does not go around saving people that He did not intend to save. That's just foolish.

I would say that most everybody that participates here is a saved person. Everybody is just at different stages in their walk. God is not willing that any should perish.And I believe that He is going to be more successful than not in that.

Well, that is your understanding and I would like to agree but I cannot, for these desires to cast doubt upon the salvation of others, do not show the Work of Christ in the heart. If I was to judge the salvation of those who practice such ungodly things, based upon their actions? I would have to judge that they do not have the Spirit of Christ working in them. I hope that I am wrong but in action they deny Him, I pray that God would grant them repentance and that they would turn from such things?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, we are commanded to strengthen those who are weak in faith, not condemn them by making vain and unbiblical points or by using the scriptures in a way to cause them to stumble. I doubt those who have such things in their heart as to weaken the faith of other believers, have any understanding of the scriptures of their true biblical purpose. Shame is for those who cause the weak believers to stumble, when if they had a sincere heart they would seek to encourage them in their struggles. One can see very clearly that those who practice such things are far from the truth of Christ.

Well, thank you for your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, and I respect that. But let's talk about this Biblically. I have been showing where the Bible itself does what you say is evil and not of Christ. Now show me where it says we are not to share what the Bible says about fruit and it being the evidence of salvation because that is cruel judging and condemnation.

I'm sorry, but you're offering nothing but the common unbelievers PC argument about 'judging' people.

 

[George Muller]

No, we are commanded to strengthen those who are weak in faith, not condemn them by making vain and unbiblical points or by using the scriptures in a way to cause them to stumble. I doubt those who have such things in their heart as to weaken the faith of other believers, have any understanding of the scriptures of their true biblical purpose. Shame is for those who cause the weak believers to stumble, when if they had a sincere heart they would seek to encourage them in their struggles. One can see very clearly that those who practice such things are far from the truth of Christ.

Well, thank you for your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, and I respect that. But let's talk about this Biblically. I have been showing where the Bible itself does what you say is evil and not of Christ. Now show me where it says we are not to share what the Bible says about fruit and it being the evidence of salvation because that is cruel judging and condemnation.

I'm sorry, but you're offering nothing but the common unbelievers PC argument about 'judging' people.

Well all those who know Christ and His Gospel, know well that we are to encourage our weak brothers and sisters, do you need to see the scripture to believe what all Christians should know? This is not my opinion its biblical fact that rings true in every honest heart of those who have the love of Christ. Those who go about to condemn and cast doubt on the salvation of weak Christians, commit the greatest of all sins, and I pray that God would grant repentance from such evil deeds.

 

[gr8grace]

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.

I'm in the middle of packing for a move, but I had to comment here. This is, indeed the heart of the matter. Scripture NOWHERE says we can not reject Christ, or we can not toss ourselves into "the lake of fire", or we can not "cast ourselves out", NOWHERE. The verses posted don't speak to our view at all, namely, that WE MUST STAY FAITHFUL, which is all any of us non-OSASers are saying. Nothing more. The other side can try and paint us as "works salvation" types, but to anyone with an open mind it's obvious this is a straw-man.

Eph 2:8 dogmatically says that we cannot cast ourselves out.

John 5:24 dogmatically states that we cannot cast ourselves out.

Show me in those two verses(more to come) where there is a loophole in those utterly true and dogmatic statements.

"That car is red." by believing it is yellow and wanting it yellow doesn't change the clear and dogmatic fact that the car is red.

"you have eternal life......."

" does not come into judgement......" Clearly stated and dogmatic facts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In the periphrastic perfect that was presented from Eph 2:8, one very important part to remember is the "have been saved". Its a dogmatic statement.

Nobody's arguing this. If you have faith your salvation is as sure as God himself. You HAVE the promise of salvation when you believe. Nothing in all of heaven and earth can separate faith from salvation. Nothing. That is why we have to persevere in that faith to gain the sure promise faith secures.


36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”

38 And,

“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

(Hebrews 10:36-39 NASB)


But OSAS says you DON'T have to persevere in your faith to obtain the goal of faith, the salvation of your soul. When you abandon faith you abandon the unbreakable bond between faith and salvation. You can't have one without the other. They are inextricably connected. No force exists to separate the two. When you abandon faith, the salvation that is so inextricably connected to it goes to. That's why it is so important to persevere in the faith you have. Lose it and you lose the salvation inseparably connected to it.

Losing faith and thinking you can still have the surety of the kingdom of God is like losing your TV remote control and thinking you still have 500 channels at your disposal.

 

[gr8grace]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

 

[gr8grace]

In the periphrastic perfect that was presented from Eph 2:8, one very important part to remember is the "have been saved". Its a dogmatic statement.

Nobody's arguing this. If you have faith your salvation is as sure as God himself. You HAVE the promise of salvation when you believe. Nothing in all of heaven and earth can separate faith from salvation. Nothing. That is why we have to persevere in that faith to gain the sure promise faith secures.


36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,

“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.”

38 And,

“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.

(Hebrews 10:36-39 NASB)


But OSAS says you DON'T have to persevere in your faith to obtain the goal of faith, the salvation of your soul.

Eph 2:8 says that it is a done deal! Show how Eph 2:8 says that it really is not a done deal.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Eph 2:8 says that it is a done deal! Show how Eph 2:8 says that it really is not a done deal.

Why do you ignore the 'through faith' part?

How is salvation still secured 'not through faith' if faith is removed from Ephesians 2:8?

That is what I can't get OSASer's to see. The part that is not a done deal is the faith part of the equation. It's still being tested and refined in all of us who profess Christ. JLB has been showing this over and over. Faith must persevere to the end to keep secure that which it most certainly and undoubtedly and without question or threat of loss secures. Understand?

 

[gr8grace]

The argument is not that God will not toss believers into the lake of fire. He will toss those who never believed, or who stopped believing into the lake of fire. The evidence of their lack, or loss of faith being their sinful lifestyles.

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.




What OSASer's don't pay attention to is the condition of believing that accompanies the various verses about eternal security they use to defend their doctrine.

Jesus said the one who believes is the one who has eternal life and does not come into judgment and has passed from death to life. Somehow this came to be understood that one can stop believing and what Jesus said is still true, that you will still have the sure promise of salvation.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

Entirely true...if you keep on 'having faith', a.k.a. 'believing'.

It's one thing to know something is true. That is what the gift of faith is--to know that something is true. It's another thing to believe, putting your trust in that which God has shown you to be true through the gift of faith.

Many people reject that which the Holy Spirit convicts them about is true. Some accept what the Spirit shows them to be true about the gospel and repent, but eventually return to their unbelief. OSAS will say one of two things about this: 1) They were never really saved to begin with, or closely related they'll say 2) it's impossible to stop believing. But, interestingly enough, some OSASer's will say the person who does that--stops believing--is still saved anyway, because that's how gracious and undeserved and utterly independent of what we 'do' salvation is. That's a horrible distortion of grace. Jesus himself said the 'work' of man is to believe. Paul contrasts this 'work', the work of having faith, with all other righteous work. The only 'work' that can secure a declaration of righteousness is the 'work' of believing.

A denial is just a denial Jethro. You are a great thinker and have a Gift of looking at things from a deeper perspective in a lot of things. I respect that. But this thread is about verses and breaking the verses down.

In the periphrastic perfect that was presented from Eph 2:8, one very important part to remember is the "have been saved". Its a dogmatic statement.

From your explanation, you are saying that Eph 2:8 really doesn't say what I have presented. Show me that Eph 2:8 doesn't say what I presented and that it really says "except if you...."

You have been shown, you just refuse to see it, so I will expound some more.


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

This scripture states that a person " has been" saved.


23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

This scripture says you will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith by which you WERE SAVED.

9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

This scripture says you WILL BE SAVED at the END of your faith.


In summary -

You have been saved.

You are being saved, IF you continue in the faith..

You will be saved at the end of your faith.


When you receive your resurrected immortal body, then you are saved.


27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

Those who endure to the end will be saved!


JLB

Yes I was preached that for over ten years.

So you are telling me that there really is not a periphrastic perfect in Eph 2:8. Show me that there is really not one. You are denying the Phrase and the meaning of saved in Eph 2:8. Show me that it really doesn't mean what the writer intended it to mean.



"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

Show me that the intensive perfect does not really mean what it means in Eph 2:8.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

I'm doing that. Give some honest open hearted contemplation to what I'm saying. Show me you're doing that by challenging what I'm saying, not by repeating what you're saying.