OSAS is biblical truth.

[Jethro Bodine]

A denial is just a denial Jethro. You are a great thinker and have a Gift of looking at things from a deeper perspective in a lot of things. I respect that. But this thread is about verses and breaking the verses down.

In the periphrastic perfect that was presented from Eph 2:8, one very important part to remember is the "have been saved". Its a dogmatic statement.

From your explanation, you are saying that Eph 2:8 really doesn't say what I have presented. Show me that Eph 2:8 doesn't say what I presented and that it really says "except if you...."

You have been shown, you just refuse to see it, so I will expound some more.


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

This scripture states that a person " has been" saved.


23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

This scripture says you will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith by which you WERE SAVED.

9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

This scripture says you WILL BE SAVED at the END of your faith.


In summary -

You have been saved.

You are being saved, IF you continue in the faith..

You will be saved at the end of your faith.


When you receive your resurrected immortal body, then you are saved.


27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

Those who endure to the end will be saved!


JLB

Yes I was preached that for over ten years.

So you are telling me that there really is not a periphrastic perfect in Eph 2:8. Show me that there is really not one. You are denying the Phrase and the meaning of saved in Eph 2:8. Show me that it really doesn't mean what the writer intended it to mean.



"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

Show me that the intensive perfect does not really mean what it means in Eph 2:8.

Faith is what makes it periphrastic!

Take faith away and it is no longer peri..whatever!

(Sorry, JLB, I just had to jump in with that).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, we are commanded to strengthen those who are weak in faith, not condemn them by making vain and unbiblical points or by using the scriptures in a way to cause them to stumble. I doubt those who have such things in their heart as to weaken the faith of other believers, have any understanding of the scriptures of their true biblical purpose. Shame is for those who cause the weak believers to stumble, when if they had a sincere heart they would seek to encourage them in their struggles. One can see very clearly that those who practice such things are far from the truth of Christ.

Well, thank you for your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, and I respect that. But let's talk about this Biblically. I have been showing where the Bible itself does what you say is evil and not of Christ. Now show me where it says we are not to share what the Bible says about fruit and it being the evidence of salvation because that is cruel judging and condemnation.

I'm sorry, but you're offering nothing but the common unbelievers PC argument about 'judging' people.

Well all those who know Christ and His Gospel, know well that we are to encourage our weak brothers and sisters, do you need to see the scripture to believe what all Christians should know? This is not my opinion its biblical fact that rings true in every honest heart of those who have the love of Christ. Those who go about to condemn and cast doubt on the salvation of weak Christians, commit the greatest of all sins, and I pray that God would grant repentance from such evil deeds.

Learn from this. This is the true heart and intent of Biblical correction:

"...go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. (Matthew 18:15 NIV)

But political correctness in the church says Biblical correction is nothing more than a desire to destroy people. How terribly wrong!

Consider what Paul said:

"8 So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it. 9 I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters." (2 Corinthians 10:8-9 NIV)


And look what the author of Hebrews says about the correction of discipline:

11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed." (Hebrews 12:11-13 NIV)

Is it so bad that someone try to bring another to a level path? It's intent is to heal and not leave one disabled by a treacherous and unlevel path.

 

[Narwhalist]

Hello to all. I have been following this conversation quite closely and if I may interject something.
1 Peter 1:5 - by the power of God, having been guarded through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
This verse tells me that we are not in this alone folks. Christian's salvation is being guarded by our Lord through His power so that we do not lose our salvation. Is God not powerful enough to guide us, not force us?
Also 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that they might be revealed that they all are not of us.
This verse tells me that those who "lose faith" just seem to lose a faith they never had. I would like to know what all of you think about this. God bless

 

[gr8grace]

Eph 2:8 says that it is a done deal! Show how Eph 2:8 says that it really is not a done deal.

Why do you ignore the 'through faith' part?

How is salvation still secured 'not through faith' if faith is removed from Ephesians 2:8?

That is what I can't get OSASer's to see. The part that is not a done deal is the faith part of the equation. It's still being tested and refined in all of us who profess Christ. JLB has been showing this over and over. Faith must persevere to the end to secure that which it most certainly and undoubtedly and without question or threat of loss secures. Understand?

Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hello to all. I have been following this conversation quite closely and if I may interject something.
1 Peter 1:5 - by the power of God, having been guarded through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
This verse tells me that we are not in this alone folks. Christian's salvation is being guarded by our Lord through His power so that we do not lose our salvation. Is God not powerful enough to guide us, not force us?
Also 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that they might be revealed that they all are not of us.
This verse tells me that those who "lose faith" just seem to lose a faith they never had. I would like to know what all of you think about this. God bless

The Galatians and the Hebrew Church had repentance, faith, the Holy Spirit, and salvation, and even works of faith, yet they were warned of the dire consequences of walking away from the faith the letters themselves say they surely had, and had what that faith secures.

 

[gr8grace]

A denial is just a denial Jethro. You are a great thinker and have a Gift of looking at things from a deeper perspective in a lot of things. I respect that. But this thread is about verses and breaking the verses down.

In the periphrastic perfect that was presented from Eph 2:8, one very important part to remember is the "have been saved". Its a dogmatic statement.

From your explanation, you are saying that Eph 2:8 really doesn't say what I have presented. Show me that Eph 2:8 doesn't say what I presented and that it really says "except if you...."

You have been shown, you just refuse to see it, so I will expound some more.


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

This scripture states that a person " has been" saved.


23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

This scripture says you will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith by which you WERE SAVED.

9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

This scripture says you WILL BE SAVED at the END of your faith.


In summary -

You have been saved.

You are being saved, IF you continue in the faith..

You will be saved at the end of your faith.


When you receive your resurrected immortal body, then you are saved.


27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

Those who endure to the end will be saved!


JLB

Yes I was preached that for over ten years.

So you are telling me that there really is not a periphrastic perfect in Eph 2:8. Show me that there is really not one. You are denying the Phrase and the meaning of saved in Eph 2:8. Show me that it really doesn't mean what the writer intended it to mean.



"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

Show me that the intensive perfect does not really mean what it means in Eph 2:8.

Faith is what makes it periphrastic!

Take faith away and it is no longer peri..whatever!

(Sorry, JLB, I just had to jump in with that).

No it doesn't Jethro. the two verbal forms of saved makes it a periphrastic perfect. The grace and faith and salvation is not of ourselves in this verse.

 

[JLB]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

You have been shown by the scriptures that are just as true as Eph 2:8 and John 5:24.

The scriptures show the balance of Truth within Gods word.

By ignoring these other scriptures and the part that we see, you have disregarded the full counsel of God.

I will show you an example, from the scriptures.


4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. Proverbs 26:5


Based on your understanding of God's word, only one of these two scriptures can be correct.

They state exactly the opposite of each other.

Which scripture is true and which is false.

When you answer this, then I will show your the answer to Ephesians 2:8.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

You have been shown by the scriptures that are just as true as Eph 2:8 and John 5:24.

The scriptures show the balance of Truth within Gods word.

By ignoring these other scriptures and the part that we see, you have disregarded the full counsel of God.

I will show you an example, from the scriptures.


4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. Proverbs 26:5


Based on your understanding of God's word, only one of these two scriptures can be correct.

They state exactly the opposite of each other.

Which scripture is true and which is false.

When you answer this, then I will show your the answer to Ephesians 2:8.


JLB

Show me that there in no periphrastic perfect in Eph 2:8 and that the intensive perfect really doesnt mean a completed action.

 

[JLB]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

You have been shown by the scriptures that are just as true as Eph 2:8 and John 5:24.

The scriptures show the balance of Truth within Gods word.

By ignoring these other scriptures and the part that we see, you have disregarded the full counsel of God.

I will show you an example, from the scriptures.


4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. Proverbs 26:5


Based on your understanding of God's word, only one of these two scriptures can be correct.

They state exactly the opposite of each other.

Which scripture is true and which is false.

When you answer this, then I will show your the answer to Ephesians 2:8.


JLB

Show me that there in no periphrastic perfect in Eph 2:8 and that the intensive perfect really doesnt mean a completed action.

That what I thought.

Your argument is not valid in the light of truth, that contains the whole counsel of God.

If Ephesians 2:8 was the only scripture in the whole bible, then your argument would be valid.

You reject Jesus' word and teaching, in favor of you one liner.


18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." Matthew 13:18-23

And again -


1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

You have been shown by the scriptures that are just as true as Eph 2:8 and John 5:24.

The scriptures show the balance of Truth within Gods word.

By ignoring these other scriptures and the part that we see, you have disregarded the full counsel of God.

I will show you an example, from the scriptures.


4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. Proverbs 26:5


Based on your understanding of God's word, only one of these two scriptures can be correct.

They state exactly the opposite of each other.

Which scripture is true and which is false.

When you answer this, then I will show your the answer to Ephesians 2:8.


JLB

Proverbs 26:4-5 is two different types of fools and two different types of things fools do.

Do not answer a fool with evil if He is using evil. An Evil fool. Leave those to God and walk away.

The fool to answer is a immature, worldly Christian. He has a humanistic view point and mature believers are to answer him with divine view point.

Do not cast your pearls to the Swine? They will rip what is Holy apart.

But bring your pearls to the world?

 

[gr8grace]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

You have been shown by the scriptures that are just as true as Eph 2:8 and John 5:24.

The scriptures show the balance of Truth within Gods word.

By ignoring these other scriptures and the part that we see, you have disregarded the full counsel of God.

I will show you an example, from the scriptures.


4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. Proverbs 26:5


Based on your understanding of God's word, only one of these two scriptures can be correct.

They state exactly the opposite of each other.

Which scripture is true and which is false.

When you answer this, then I will show your the answer to Ephesians 2:8.


JLB

Show me that there in no periphrastic perfect in Eph 2:8 and that the intensive perfect really doesnt mean a completed action.

That what I thought.

Your argument is not valid in the light of truth, that contains the whole counsel of God.

If Ephesians 2:8 was the only scripture in the whole bible, then your argument would be valid.

You reject Jesus' word and teaching, in favor of you one liner.


18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." Matthew 13:18-23

And again -


1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


JLB

There are many verses that back up what Eph 2:8 says. The fact is you will not deal with Eph 2:8 and what it dogmatically states.

Your interpretation of scriptures changes the dogmatic statement in Eph 2:8. We need to prove that Eph 2:8 is not as stated in the OP. That it really does not make a dogmatic statement.

And I will just say this once, I asked my question from the beginning and you refused to answer.

Show me that in Eph 2:8 that the intensive perfect of sozo does not really mean a COMPLETED ACTION. Your interpretation of scriptures says that is does not mean that. Show me how It does not mean COMPLETED

 

[JLB]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

You have been shown by the scriptures that are just as true as Eph 2:8 and John 5:24.

The scriptures show the balance of Truth within Gods word.

By ignoring these other scriptures and the part that we see, you have disregarded the full counsel of God.

I will show you an example, from the scriptures.


4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. Proverbs 26:5


Based on your understanding of God's word, only one of these two scriptures can be correct.

They state exactly the opposite of each other.

Which scripture is true and which is false.

When you answer this, then I will show your the answer to Ephesians 2:8.


JLB

Proverbs 26:4-5 is two different types of fools and two different types of things fools do.

Do not answer a fool with evil if He is using evil. An Evil fool. Leave those to God and walk away.

The fool to answer is a immature, worldly Christian. He has a humanistic view point and mature believers are to answer him with divine view point.

Do not cast your pearls to the Swine? They will rip what is Holy apart.

But bring your pearls to the world?

Which one is true verse 4 or verse 5?


JLB

 

[reba]

How is judging others to be judgmental not judgmental? one of those circular argument I guess....

 

[gr8grace]

Guys and gals lets stick to the OP.

I want someone who believes in conditional security to show the readers that Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 do not really mean what has been presented. So far notta one.

You have been shown by the scriptures that are just as true as Eph 2:8 and John 5:24.

The scriptures show the balance of Truth within Gods word.

By ignoring these other scriptures and the part that we see, you have disregarded the full counsel of God.

I will show you an example, from the scriptures.


4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. Proverbs 26:4

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. Proverbs 26:5


Based on your understanding of God's word, only one of these two scriptures can be correct.

They state exactly the opposite of each other.

Which scripture is true and which is false.

When you answer this, then I will show your the answer to Ephesians 2:8.


JLB

Proverbs 26:4-5 is two different types of fools and two different types of things fools do.

Do not answer a fool with evil if He is using evil. An Evil fool. Leave those to God and walk away.

The fool to answer is a immature, worldly Christian. He has a humanistic view point and mature believers are to answer him with divine view point.

Do not cast your pearls to the Swine? They will rip what is Holy apart.

But bring your pearls to the world?

Which one is true verse 4 or verse 5?


JLB

How many truths are in these verses? One or is there more than one?

 

[JLB]

Proverbs 26:4-5 is two different types of fools and two different types of things fools do.

Do not answer a fool with evil if He is using evil. An Evil fool. Leave those to God and walk away.

The fool to answer is a immature, worldly Christian. He has a humanistic view point and mature believers are to answer him with divine view point.

Do not cast your pearls to the Swine? They will rip what is Holy apart.

But bring your pearls to the world?

Which one is true verse 4 or verse 5?


JLB

How many truths are in these verses? One or is there more than one?

It's a very simple question, which verse is true?

Verse 4.
Verse 5.
Both.

JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Proverbs 26:4-5 is two different types of fools and two different types of things fools do.

Do not answer a fool with evil if He is using evil. An Evil fool. Leave those to God and walk away.

The fool to answer is a immature, worldly Christian. He has a humanistic view point and mature believers are to answer him with divine view point.

Do not cast your pearls to the Swine? They will rip what is Holy apart.

But bring your pearls to the world?

Which one is true verse 4 or verse 5?


JLB

How many truths are in these verses? One or is there more than one?

It's a very simple question, which verse is true?

Verse 4.
Verse 5.
Both.

JLB

Its very simple, one states a dogmatic truth. And the other states a different dogmatic truth.

If we interpret ANY other scripture and that interpretation changes that dogmatic truth, we are misinterpreting that verse.

Eph 2:8 is so forceful and so dogmatic.

That is why NO ONE will deal with the clear and intended(FORCEFULLY) meaning of Eph 2:8.

Interpretations and well meaning sincere believers have given opinions and feelings about Eternal security. But interpretations and sincerity still does not change the fact that Eph 2:8 Clearly and forcefully states that one is saved in the past, now and forever and ever and one cannot change that position in Christ. The passive voice tells us that. Salvation is ALL from God

 

[gr8grace]

we can touch on John 5:24 to use the whole counsel of God to back up what was said in Eph 2:8. Not to mention Rom 8:1; Eph 2:4-6;John 6:37;John 18:9 and many more.

John 5:24~~ “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Three very dogmatic statements from our Lord that teach eternal security to anyone who has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Lets start with one of these dogmatic statements:

The Greek word metabebeken~~3327 perfect/ active/ indicative 3s ---verb ~~has passed. Means to totally pass over from one place to another, to be completely removed, to completely depart.

The Perfect tense with an indicative mood is a clear and dogmatic statement of referring to ' from death to life' the indicative mood clearly says that it is complete and utter fact and the subject is NOT able to pass from 'life back into death.'

And that is just one bit of the truth of these three dogmatic statements that cannot be denied unless we want to deny them.

 

[chessman]

[
It's a very simple question, which verse is true?

Verse 4.
Verse 5.
Both.

JLB

Both. As the NASB shows, there's no conflict:
Proverbs 26:4-5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.
5 Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.

With a practical application of; point out once to someone that to bring up Prov 26 to argue against the clarity in Eph 2 is illogical. Then just drop the discussion with them as that person obviously cares more about their inability to be wrong than discovering God's truth.

 

[JLB]

How many truths are in these verses? One or is there more than one?

It's a very simple question, which verse is true?

Verse 4.
Verse 5.
Both.

JLB

Its very simple, one states a dogmatic truth. And the other states a different dogmatic truth.

If we interpret ANY other scripture and that interpretation changes that dogmatic truth, we are misinterpreting that verse.

Eph 2:8 is so forceful and so dogmatic.

That is why NO ONE will deal with the clear and intended(FORCEFULLY) meaning of Eph 2:8.

Interpretations and well meaning sincere believers have given opinions and feelings about Eternal security. But interpretations and sincerity still does not change the fact that Eph 2:8 Clearly and forcefully states that one is saved in the past, now and forever and ever and one cannot change that position in Christ. The passive voice tells us that. Salvation is ALL from God

Dude, what are you talking about? No one will deal with it.

It's been dealt with! Ephesians 2:8 is one scripture. I have shown you several scriptures that show just as truthfully a person MUST continue in the faith, MUST continue to abide, MUST endure to the end.

The END of your faith is the salvation of your soul, NOT the beginning of your faith.

The end of you faith is the salvation of your soul.

These SCRIPTURES are what gives the mature brother or sister in The Lord, the road map to salvation, not your narrow view through the lens of one scripture.

When you have matured in the faith, and been through years and years of dealings with The Lord , then you will understand.

Until then your one scripture that a person is saved at the beginning of their faith, holds NO WEIGHT with those who understand that the whole counsel of God is necessary for a mature understanding of salvation.


By faith you were saved.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch...

That means at one time they were connected to the vine, but in the end they were cast out!

YOU WERE SAVED, BUT NOW YOU ARE CAST OUT...


JLB

 

[dadof10]

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.

I'm in the middle of packing for a move, but I had to comment here. This is, indeed the heart of the matter. Scripture NOWHERE says we can not reject Christ, or we can not toss ourselves into "the lake of fire", or we can not "cast ourselves out", NOWHERE. The verses posted don't speak to our view at all, namely, that WE MUST STAY FAITHFUL, which is all any of us non-OSASers are saying. Nothing more. The other side can try and paint us as "works salvation" types, but to anyone with an open mind it's obvious this is a straw-man.

Well all the "non-OSASers" I have ever encountered are trying to justify themselves by "works" in some way and have themselves all rejected true faith. "for the law is not of faith" and any conversation that relates to "turning from faith" must begin at that truth or else it is a false discussion all together. The fact that these OSAS folks believe the scriptures and the promises of God as it relates to His Grace, prove in a clear way that they are in fact "faithful" and have all reason to have all confidence in their salvation. The fact that those who seek to justify themselves by "works-free-will etc..." Prove they are those who are not saved, nor should they have confidence in salvation, this is Gods System... "TO THOSE WHO HAVE, MORE WILL BE GIVEN, TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT EVEN THAT WHICH THEY HAVE WILL BE TAKEN AWAY" So what we really have is "unsaved" people trying to bring their doubts and unbelief upon those who are saved. The question is not is OSAS true, but why are so many rejecting salvation?

Everyone who thinks they must REMAIN FAITHFUL and believes in free will has "rejected true faith"???? Really? Certainly you have known people who have believed the exact same way you do, yet have "left the church"? By your own definition, they had "true faith" because they believed in "God's system", right? How is it they CAN lose it then?