OSAS is biblical truth.

[JLB]

[
It's a very simple question, which verse is true?

Verse 4.
Verse 5.
Both.

JLB

Both. As the NASB shows, there's no conflict:
Proverbs 26:4-5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.
5 Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.

With a practical application of; point out once to someone that to bring up Prov 26 to argue against the clarity in Eph 2 is illogical. Then just drop the discussion with them as that person obviously cares more about their inability to be wrong than discovering God's truth.

Illogical to who, you?

Proverbs 26:4-5 are two scriptures that state exactly the opposite, yet they are both the Truth.

Depending on who the fool is, and what is being said...

So it is with two opposing scriptures in the case of salvation, which is why we look to the whole counsel of God.

Not just one scripture.

Who was the person who was saved? Where do they live, America or Mongolia.

How much access do they have to the scripture?

Can they read?

And on and on and on...

You can't just take one scripture and make a blanket statement about everyone.

That is why The Apostle Paul made this profound statement at the end of His life -

19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:19


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

How many truths are in these verses? One or is there more than one?

It's a very simple question, which verse is true?

Verse 4.
Verse 5.
Both.

JLB

Its very simple, one states a dogmatic truth. And the other states a different dogmatic truth.

If we interpret ANY other scripture and that interpretation changes that dogmatic truth, we are misinterpreting that verse.

Eph 2:8 is so forceful and so dogmatic.

That is why NO ONE will deal with the clear and intended(FORCEFULLY) meaning of Eph 2:8.

Interpretations and well meaning sincere believers have given opinions and feelings about Eternal security. But interpretations and sincerity still does not change the fact that Eph 2:8 Clearly and forcefully states that one is saved in the past, now and forever and ever and one cannot change that position in Christ. The passive voice tells us that. Salvation is ALL from God

Dude, what are you talking about? No one will deal with it.

It's been dealt with! Ephesians 2:8 is one scripture. I have shown you several scriptures that show just as truthfully a person MUST continue in the faith, MUST continue to abide, MUST endure to the end.

The END of your faith is the salvation of your soul, NOT the beginning of your faith.

The end of you faith is the salvation of your soul.

These SCRIPTURES are what gives the mature brother or sister in The Lord, the road map to salvation, not your narrow view through the lens of one scripture.

When you have matured in the faith, and been through years and years of dealings with The Lord , then you will understand.

Until then your one scripture that a person is saved at the beginning of their faith, holds NO WEIGHT with those who understand that the whole counsel of God is necessary for a mature understanding of salvation.


By faith you were saved.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch...

That means at one time they were connected to the vine, but in the end they were cast out!

YOU WERE SAVED, BUT NOW YOU ARE CAST OUT...


JLB

It has not been dealt with JLB. Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 dogmatically state the very opposite of what you are saying.

You have changed the meaning of Eph 2:8 "you have been saved"

If you are correct in your interpretations of these other scriptures, then Eph 2:8 cannot mean what has been posted in the OP. Show the readers that the OP is wrong and the Greek does not mean what is stated in the OP.

the OP has to be wrong in the interpretation of eph 2:8 and John 5:24.The Greek has to be wrong in the OP to conclude what you have concluded.

Your interpretation says that it is NOT completed and Eph 2:8 says clearly and definitively that it IS completed.

Show me that in Eph 2:8 that the intensive perfect of sozo does not really mean a COMPLETED ACTION. Your interpretation of scriptures says that it does not mean that. Show me how It does not mean COMPLETED.

 

[dadof10]

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.

I'm in the middle of packing for a move, but I had to comment here. This is, indeed the heart of the matter. Scripture NOWHERE says we can not reject Christ, or we can not toss ourselves into "the lake of fire", or we can not "cast ourselves out", NOWHERE. The verses posted don't speak to our view at all, namely, that WE MUST STAY FAITHFUL, which is all any of us non-OSASers are saying. Nothing more. The other side can try and paint us as "works salvation" types, but to anyone with an open mind it's obvious this is a straw-man.

Eph 2:8 dogmatically says that we cannot cast ourselves out.

John 5:24 dogmatically states that we cannot cast ourselves out.

Show me in those two verses(more to come) where there is a loophole in those utterly true and dogmatic statements.

Then you must believe that once a person has "eternal life" he can never lose it, no matter what he does or doesn't do. Therefore, a person can truly believe, then maybe a few years later, totally reject Christ and everything He stands for, and still be "saved". Is this your position? In other words, he doesn't have to remain faithful to be saved, only accept Christ at some point in his life, then basically keep doing what he always had been, like your friend Mitch in the other thread.

"That car is red." by believing it is yellow and wanting it yellow doesn't change the clear and dogmatic fact that the car is red.

"you have eternal life......."

" does not come into judgement......" Clearly stated and dogmatic facts.

That car is red and CAN NEVER BE PAINTED ANOTHER COLOR, is the correct analogy here. Unless you reject free will (as in God will keep the car red even if it's owner tries to paint it yellow), you must at least hold out the possibility that cars CAN be painted another color, depending on their owners free will.

 

[gr8grace]

Then you must believe that once a person has "eternal life" he can never lose it, no matter what he does or doesn't do. Therefore, a person can truly believe, then maybe a few years later, totally reject Christ and everything He stands for, and still be "saved". Is this your position? In other words, he doesn't have to remain faithful to be saved, only accept Christ at some point in his life, then basically keep doing what he always had been, like your friend Mitch in the other thread.

"That car is red." by believing it is yellow and wanting it yellow doesn't change the clear and dogmatic fact that the car is red.

"you have eternal life......."

" does not come into judgement......" Clearly stated and dogmatic facts.

That car is red and CAN NEVER BE PAINTED ANOTHER COLOR, is the correct analogy here. Unless you reject free will (as in God will keep the car red even if it's owner tries to paint it yellow), you must at least hold out the possibility that cars CAN be painted another color, depending on their owners free will.

Yes, saved forever no matter what.

The "car" is Gods. salvation and eternal security are Gods. It is not for the creature to "repaint" Christ, no matter how much freewill we possess.

But this is just philosophy and cool words.

Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 have not been properly explained in this WHOLE OP by any conditional salvation proponents.

 

[JLB]

Its very simple, one states a dogmatic truth. And the other states a different dogmatic truth.

If we interpret ANY other scripture and that interpretation changes that dogmatic truth, we are misinterpreting that verse.

Eph 2:8 is so forceful and so dogmatic.

That is why NO ONE will deal with the clear and intended(FORCEFULLY) meaning of Eph 2:8.

Interpretations and well meaning sincere believers have given opinions and feelings about Eternal security. But interpretations and sincerity still does not change the fact that Eph 2:8 Clearly and forcefully states that one is saved in the past, now and forever and ever and one cannot change that position in Christ. The passive voice tells us that. Salvation is ALL from God

Dude, what are you talking about? No one will deal with it.

It's been dealt with! Ephesians 2:8 is one scripture. I have shown you several scriptures that show just as truthfully a person MUST continue in the faith, MUST continue to abide, MUST endure to the end.

The END of your faith is the salvation of your soul, NOT the beginning of your faith.

The end of you faith is the salvation of your soul.

These SCRIPTURES are what gives the mature brother or sister in The Lord, the road map to salvation, not your narrow view through the lens of one scripture.

When you have matured in the faith, and been through years and years of dealings with The Lord , then you will understand.

Until then your one scripture that a person is saved at the beginning of their faith, holds NO WEIGHT with those who understand that the whole counsel of God is necessary for a mature understanding of salvation.


By faith you were saved.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch...

That means at one time they were connected to the vine, but in the end they were cast out!

YOU WERE SAVED, BUT NOW YOU ARE CAST OUT...


JLB

It has not been dealt with JLB. Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 dogmatically state the very opposite of what you are saying.

You have changed the meaning of Eph 2:8 "you have been saved"

If you are correct in your interpretations of these other scriptures, then Eph 2:8 cannot mean what has been posted in the OP. Show the readers that the OP is wrong and the Greek does not mean what is stated in the OP.

the OP has to be wrong in the interpretation of eph 2:8 and John 5:24.The Greek has to be wrong in the OP to conclude what you have concluded.

Your interpretation says that it is NOT completed and Eph 2:8 says clearly and definitively that it IS completed.

Show me that in Eph 2:8 that the intensive perfect of sozo does not really mean a COMPLETED ACTION. Your interpretation of scriptures says that it does not mean that. Show me how It does not mean COMPLETED.

Ephesians 2:8 means exactly what it says, you have been saved, when you believed the Gospel.

Colossians 1:23 also means exactly what it says -

You will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith that you HAD on the day you were saved.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

You don't get to discard one scripture for another.

You must receive all the scriptural together as a whole.

You may have been saved by faith, but if chose disregard the scriptures concerning the mark of the beast and you decide to receive it because you believe there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, because Ephesians 2:8 says you were saved by grace...

Then this scriptures will be your to have and to hold forever -

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

JLB

 

[dadof10]

Then you must believe that once a person has "eternal life" he can never lose it, no matter what he does or doesn't do. Therefore, a person can truly believe, then maybe a few years later, totally reject Christ and everything He stands for, and still be "saved". Is this your position? In other words, he doesn't have to remain faithful to be saved, only accept Christ at some point in his life, then basically keep doing what he always had been, like your friend Mitch in the other thread.

"That car is red." by believing it is yellow and wanting it yellow doesn't change the clear and dogmatic fact that the car is red.

"you have eternal life......."

" does not come into judgement......" Clearly stated and dogmatic facts.

That car is red and CAN NEVER BE PAINTED ANOTHER COLOR, is the correct analogy here. Unless you reject free will (as in God will keep the car red even if it's owner tries to paint it yellow), you must at least hold out the possibility that cars CAN be painted another color, depending on their owners free will.

Yes, saved forever no matter what.

The "car" is Gods. salvation and eternal security are Gods. It is not for the creature to "repaint" Christ, no matter how much freewill we possess.

We posses none, unless we have a say in the color of our car. Where does Scripture teach we are saved no matter what we do? Where is is taught that it's OK to just stay in our sins, even after we are "saved", because all we have to do is make a one-time confession of faith? Chapter and verse, please.

But this is just philosophy and cool words.

Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 have not been properly explained in this WHOLE OP by any conditional salvation proponents.

Neither one of these verses say we DON'T HAVE TO REMAIN FAITHFUL AFTER CONVERSION. You are mistaken.

Take Eph. 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God."

Can I reject the gift? Yes or no. Can I accept the gift, then, at some point in the future, throw it away? Can't you see how this verse ONLY speaks to God's side of the relationship, not ours? This verse says faith is a gift from God and can't be earned. It isn't given on the basis of any WORKS OF THE LAW done, but by the Grace of God. It doesn't speak to the FACT that we can reject Him.

Now, John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

This verse, taken in isolation, proves that we only have to believe in the Jewish God, not in Christ, to forever have eternal life. Is this your take? The verse says "and believes him who sent me..." not "believes in Me...". Proof texting is where we get snake-handlers. There are other verses that speak to the subject. Jethro, JLB, etc. have given you plenty that debunk your view. You just won't hear it because you are focused on these two.

 

[gr8grace]

lets do some more on John 5:24. we have been shown the clear and intended meaning of "from death to life" in another post. Lets do "does not come into judgement"

In John 5:24 it says, …does not come into judgment, it does not say "might not", or "should not" or "may not", but emphatically, does not. In the Greek, the verse is much clearer; kai eis krisin ouk erchetai[and into judgment not comes]. The verb erchetai means to come or to arrive, and therefore..." does not come into judgment."

oukis is an interesting word. When you Attach ouk with any verb in the Greek, it is used to vehemently deny that what is being declared in the verb will ever happen to the subject of the sentence. The verb here is krisis, which is judgment. The subject or object of the verb is anyone who believes. Therefore, anyone who believes will not and never come into judgment. The judgment in this verse is an eternal judgement, so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation.

 

[JLB]

We posses none, unless we have a say in the color of our car. Where does Scripture teach we are saved no matter what we do? Where is is taught that it's OK to just stay in our sins, even after we are "saved", because all we have to do is make a one-time confession of faith? Chapter and verse, please.

But this is just philosophy and cool words.

Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 have not been properly explained in this WHOLE OP by any conditional salvation proponents.

Neither one of these verses say we DON'T HAVE TO REMAIN FAITHFUL AFTER CONVERSION. You are mistaken.

Take Eph. 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God."

Can I reject the gift? Yes or no. Can I accept the gift, then, at some point in the future, throw it away? Can't you see how this verse ONLY speaks to God's side of the relationship, not ours? This verse says faith is a gift from God and can't be earned. It isn't given on the basis of any WORKS OF THE LAW done, but by the Grace of God. It doesn't speak to the FACT that we can reject Him.

Now, John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

This verse, taken in isolation, proves that we only have to believe in the Jewish God, not in Christ, to forever have eternal life. Is this your take? The verse says "and believes him who sent me..." not "believes in Me...". Proof texting is where we get snake-handlers. There are other verses that speak to the subject. Jethro, JLB, etc. have given you plenty that debunk your view. You just won't hear it because you are focused on these two.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

In the verse Ephesians 2:8, the faith to be saved is the "gift" mentioned in this verse, not the salvation itself.

If a person disregards this faith and does not continue in it, as Paul teaches, then that person no longer has a faith that can save, especially if that person were to begin to look to the law and the works of the law for salvation, as many were doing in Paul's day.

So the gift referred to in Ephesians 2:8 is faith, not eternal salvation.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Its very simple, one states a dogmatic truth. And the other states a different dogmatic truth.

If we interpret ANY other scripture and that interpretation changes that dogmatic truth, we are misinterpreting that verse.

Eph 2:8 is so forceful and so dogmatic.

That is why NO ONE will deal with the clear and intended(FORCEFULLY) meaning of Eph 2:8.

Interpretations and well meaning sincere believers have given opinions and feelings about Eternal security. But interpretations and sincerity still does not change the fact that Eph 2:8 Clearly and forcefully states that one is saved in the past, now and forever and ever and one cannot change that position in Christ. The passive voice tells us that. Salvation is ALL from God

Dude, what are you talking about? No one will deal with it.

It's been dealt with! Ephesians 2:8 is one scripture. I have shown you several scriptures that show just as truthfully a person MUST continue in the faith, MUST continue to abide, MUST endure to the end.

The END of your faith is the salvation of your soul, NOT the beginning of your faith.

The end of you faith is the salvation of your soul.

These SCRIPTURES are what gives the mature brother or sister in The Lord, the road map to salvation, not your narrow view through the lens of one scripture.

When you have matured in the faith, and been through years and years of dealings with The Lord , then you will understand.

Until then your one scripture that a person is saved at the beginning of their faith, holds NO WEIGHT with those who understand that the whole counsel of God is necessary for a mature understanding of salvation.


By faith you were saved.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch...

That means at one time they were connected to the vine, but in the end they were cast out!

YOU WERE SAVED, BUT NOW YOU ARE CAST OUT...


JLB

It has not been dealt with JLB. Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 dogmatically state the very opposite of what you are saying.

You have changed the meaning of Eph 2:8 "you have been saved"

If you are correct in your interpretations of these other scriptures, then Eph 2:8 cannot mean what has been posted in the OP. Show the readers that the OP is wrong and the Greek does not mean what is stated in the OP.

the OP has to be wrong in the interpretation of eph 2:8 and John 5:24.The Greek has to be wrong in the OP to conclude what you have concluded.

Your interpretation says that it is NOT completed and Eph 2:8 says clearly and definitively that it IS completed.

Show me that in Eph 2:8 that the intensive perfect of sozo does not really mean a COMPLETED ACTION. Your interpretation of scriptures says that it does not mean that. Show me how It does not mean COMPLETED.

Ephesians 2:8 means exactly what it says, you have been saved, when you believed the Gospel.

Colossians 1:23 also means exactly what it says -

You will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith that you HAD on the day you were saved.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

You don't get to discard one scripture for another.

You must receive all the scriptural together as a whole.

You may have been saved by faith, but if chose disregard the scriptures concerning the mark of the beast and you decide to receive it because you believe there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, because Ephesians 2:8 says you were saved by grace...

Then this scriptures will be your to have and to hold forever -

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

JLB

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

Show me how that interpretation and the Greek is wrong? The Greek has to be wrong if we conclude what you conclude.

 

[George Muller]

No, we are commanded to strengthen those who are weak in faith, not condemn them by making vain and unbiblical points or by using the scriptures in a way to cause them to stumble. I doubt those who have such things in their heart as to weaken the faith of other believers, have any understanding of the scriptures of their true biblical purpose. Shame is for those who cause the weak believers to stumble, when if they had a sincere heart they would seek to encourage them in their struggles. One can see very clearly that those who practice such things are far from the truth of Christ.

Well, thank you for your opinion. You are certainly entitled to it, and I respect that. But let's talk about this Biblically. I have been showing where the Bible itself does what you say is evil and not of Christ. Now show me where it says we are not to share what the Bible says about fruit and it being the evidence of salvation because that is cruel judging and condemnation.

I'm sorry, but you're offering nothing but the common unbelievers PC argument about 'judging' people.

Well all those who know Christ and His Gospel, know well that we are to encourage our weak brothers and sisters, do you need to see the scripture to believe what all Christians should know? This is not my opinion its biblical fact that rings true in every honest heart of those who have the love of Christ. Those who go about to condemn and cast doubt on the salvation of weak Christians, commit the greatest of all sins, and I pray that God would grant repentance from such evil deeds.

Learn from this. This is the true heart and intent of Biblical correction:

"...go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. (Matthew 18:15 NIV)

But political correctness in the church says Biblical correction is nothing more than a desire to destroy people. How terribly wrong!

Consider what Paul said:

"8 So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it. 9 I do not want to seem to be trying to frighten you with my letters." (2 Corinthians 10:8-9 NIV)


And look what the author of Hebrews says about the correction of discipline:

11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed." (Hebrews 12:11-13 NIV)

Is it so bad that someone try to bring another to a level path? It's intent is to heal and not leave one disabled by a treacherous and unlevel path.

Not sure of the biblical charge of error you seem to think you are correcting? For it seems the only purpose of the post I have read is to lay some general charge against those who have some how not kept some unclear standard of faith. All the while ignoring the clear warnings that it is the law that is not of faith? So I doubt the intention of this so-called correction has any true motives as to establish others in the truth of the gospel.


1Th 5:11 ¶ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

I suggest you heed your own scriptures, for they will and do judge you.

11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.


You seem to take the position that God has called you to "discipline" other believers, by casting doubt upon their salvation? I find this to be impossible to believe.

 

[gr8grace]

We posses none, unless we have a say in the color of our car. Where does Scripture teach we are saved no matter what we do? Where is is taught that it's OK to just stay in our sins, even after we are "saved", because all we have to do is make a one-time confession of faith? Chapter and verse, please.

But this is just philosophy and cool words.

Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 have not been properly explained in this WHOLE OP by any conditional salvation proponents.

Neither one of these verses say we DON'T HAVE TO REMAIN FAITHFUL AFTER CONVERSION. You are mistaken.

Take Eph. 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God."

Can I reject the gift? Yes or no. Can I accept the gift, then, at some point in the future, throw it away? Can't you see how this verse ONLY speaks to God's side of the relationship, not ours? This verse says faith is a gift from God and can't be earned. It isn't given on the basis of any WORKS OF THE LAW done, but by the Grace of God. It doesn't speak to the FACT that we can reject Him.

Now, John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

This verse, taken in isolation, proves that we only have to believe in the Jewish God, not in Christ, to forever have eternal life. Is this your take? The verse says "and believes him who sent me..." not "believes in Me...". Proof texting is where we get snake-handlers. There are other verses that speak to the subject. Jethro, JLB, etc. have given you plenty that debunk your view. You just won't hear it because you are focused on these two.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

In the verse Ephesians 2:8, the faith to be saved is the "gift" mentioned in this verse, not the salvation itself.

If a person disregards this faith and does not continue in it, as Paul teaches, then that person no longer has a faith that can save, especially if that person were to begin to look to the law and the works of the law for salvation, as many were doing in Paul's day.

So the gift referred to in Ephesians 2:8 is faith, not eternal salvation.


JLB

That is incorrect JLB.

Charis and Pisteou Are in the feminine Gender~~ "and this" is not of yourselves is what is known as a Peritactic. The immediate break to the Neuter gender in the Greek says that all three, Grace,faith and salvation is not from ourselves. All three are a gift from God.

This denotes Salvation/faith/grace are all from God. The entire realm of salvation is from God.

 

[dadof10]

lets do some more on John 5:24. we have been shown the clear and intended meaning of "from death to life" in another post. Lets do "does not come into judgement"

In John 5:24 it says, …does not come into judgment, it does not say "might not", or "should not" or "may not", but emphatically, does not. In the Greek, the verse is much clearer; kai eis krisin ouk erchetai[and into judgment not comes]. The verb erchetai means to come or to arrive, and therefore..." does not come into judgment."

oukis is an interesting word. When you Attach ouk with any verb in the Greek, it is used to vehemently deny that what is being declared in the verb will ever happen to the subject of the sentence. The verb here is krisis, which is judgment. The subject or object of the verb is anyone who believes. Therefore, anyone who believes will not and never come into judgment. The judgment in this verse is an eternal judgement, so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation.

Wrong. Let's do an exegesis on the ACTUAL verse.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

To "pass from death to life" and "not come into condemnation" and "have eternal life" is contingent on two things.

1) Hear Jesus' word e.g. preaching.
2) Believe on HIM THAT SENT ME, e.g. God.

According to this verse and this verse ALONE, we need only hear Jesus (which for us is impossible), and believe in the God of Judaism. This verse says NOTHING about believing in Jesus, only the Jewish God.

So, if we take this verse ALONE, we must believe it's a crap shoot at best. We CAN'T hear Jesus' word (notice it doesn't say READ Jesus' word), so can we even be saved? But on the other hand, all we have to do is believe in the God of the Jews, and we are eternally saved. Humm..... Maybe we should look at what else Scripture says on the subject of salvation, it might clear things up a little. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

a gift can be returned. otherwise, sheesh. we don't have live the life, don't have to show any proof of any change.i serve my god because he loved me first. I want to return that love. if that attitude isn't in any born again believer then I wonder if they ever really met Christ and experienced said grace.most eternal security types preach this. my pastor taught this today in church. and he is leaning towards eternal security. I never understood how the church can teach that the saved sinner can repent and not strive to be pleasing like his new dad wants.

 

[George Muller]

It has not been dealt with JLB. Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 dogmatically state the very opposite of what you are saying.

You have changed the meaning of Eph 2:8 "you have been saved"

If you are correct in your interpretations of these other scriptures, then Eph 2:8 cannot mean what has been posted in the OP. Show the readers that the OP is wrong and the Greek does not mean what is stated in the OP.

the OP has to be wrong in the interpretation of eph 2:8 and John 5:24.The Greek has to be wrong in the OP to conclude what you have concluded.

Your interpretation says that it is NOT completed and Eph 2:8 says clearly and definitively that it IS completed.

Show me that in Eph 2:8 that the intensive perfect of sozo does not really mean a COMPLETED ACTION. Your interpretation of scriptures says that it does not mean that. Show me how It does not mean COMPLETED.

Ephesians 2:8 means exactly what it says, you have been saved, when you believed the Gospel.

Colossians 1:23 also means exactly what it says -

You will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith that you HAD on the day you were saved.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

You don't get to discard one scripture for another.

You must receive all the scriptural together as a whole.

You may have been saved by faith, but if chose disregard the scriptures concerning the mark of the beast and you decide to receive it because you believe there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, because Ephesians 2:8 says you were saved by grace...

Then this scriptures will be your to have and to hold forever -

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

JLB

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

Show me how that interpretation and the Greek is wrong? The Greek has to be wrong if we conclude what you conclude.

It sounds very clear to me, and the scripture cannot be broken for those who believe. The issue does not seem to be that the scriptures are not clear but only that some believe and some do not? It then is no wonder that some rejoice in salvation and some have no hope or joy in His Great Work. It is by faith and the law is not of faith. If you seek to save and convert these folks you must set them free from the law, for the law is where they stumble.

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Here is always the issue, between those who believe in eternal security and temporal salvation based upon the ability of men, for they always see salvation based upon "law of works" of some sort, no matter how they attempt to cover it up.

 

[gr8grace]

lets do some more on John 5:24. we have been shown the clear and intended meaning of "from death to life" in another post. Lets do "does not come into judgement"

In John 5:24 it says, …does not come into judgment, it does not say "might not", or "should not" or "may not", but emphatically, does not. In the Greek, the verse is much clearer; kai eis krisin ouk erchetai[and into judgment not comes]. The verb erchetai means to come or to arrive, and therefore..." does not come into judgment."

oukis is an interesting word. When you Attach ouk with any verb in the Greek, it is used to vehemently deny that what is being declared in the verb will ever happen to the subject of the sentence. The verb here is krisis, which is judgment. The subject or object of the verb is anyone who believes. Therefore, anyone who believes will not and never come into judgment. The judgment in this verse is an eternal judgement, so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation.

Wrong. Let's do an exegesis on the ACTUAL verse.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

To "pass from death to life" and "not come into condemnation" and "have eternal life" is contingent on two things.

1) Hear Jesus' word e.g. preaching.
2) Believe on HIM THAT SENT ME, e.g. God.

According to this verse and this verse ALONE, we need only hear Jesus (which for us is impossible), and believe in the God of Judaism. This verse says NOTHING about believing in Jesus, only the Jewish God.

So, if we take this verse ALONE, we must believe it's a crap shoot at best. We CAN'T hear Jesus' word (notice it doesn't say READ Jesus' word), so can we even be saved? But on the other hand, all we have to do is believe in the God of the Jews, and we are eternally saved. Humm..... Maybe we should look at what else Scripture says on the subject of salvation, it might clear things up a little. ;)

I am sure this was just overlooked. Here is a copy and paste from the OP:

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

 

[JLB]

It has not been dealt with JLB. Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 dogmatically state the very opposite of what you are saying.

You have changed the meaning of Eph 2:8 "you have been saved"

If you are correct in your interpretations of these other scriptures, then Eph 2:8 cannot mean what has been posted in the OP. Show the readers that the OP is wrong and the Greek does not mean what is stated in the OP.

the OP has to be wrong in the interpretation of eph 2:8 and John 5:24.The Greek has to be wrong in the OP to conclude what you have concluded.

Your interpretation says that it is NOT completed and Eph 2:8 says clearly and definitively that it IS completed.

Show me that in Eph 2:8 that the intensive perfect of sozo does not really mean a COMPLETED ACTION. Your interpretation of scriptures says that it does not mean that. Show me how It does not mean COMPLETED.

Ephesians 2:8 means exactly what it says, you have been saved, when you believed the Gospel.

Colossians 1:23 also means exactly what it says -

You will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith that you HAD on the day you were saved.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

You don't get to discard one scripture for another.

You must receive all the scriptural together as a whole.

You may have been saved by faith, but if chose disregard the scriptures concerning the mark of the beast and you decide to receive it because you believe there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, because Ephesians 2:8 says you were saved by grace...

Then this scriptures will be your to have and to hold forever -

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

JLB

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

Show me how that interpretation and the Greek is wrong? The Greek has to be wrong if we conclude what you conclude.

Well, there you go.

It doesn't say that does it.

You added that to the scripture.

You have been...

That was then, this is NOW!

If you continue...

If you abide ...

If you don't turn aside unto Satan...

THE END OF YOUR FAITH IS THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL!!!


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

It has not been dealt with JLB. Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 dogmatically state the very opposite of what you are saying.

You have changed the meaning of Eph 2:8 "you have been saved"

If you are correct in your interpretations of these other scriptures, then Eph 2:8 cannot mean what has been posted in the OP. Show the readers that the OP is wrong and the Greek does not mean what is stated in the OP.

the OP has to be wrong in the interpretation of eph 2:8 and John 5:24.The Greek has to be wrong in the OP to conclude what you have concluded.

Your interpretation says that it is NOT completed and Eph 2:8 says clearly and definitively that it IS completed.

Show me that in Eph 2:8 that the intensive perfect of sozo does not really mean a COMPLETED ACTION. Your interpretation of scriptures says that it does not mean that. Show me how It does not mean COMPLETED.

Ephesians 2:8 means exactly what it says, you have been saved, when you believed the Gospel.

Colossians 1:23 also means exactly what it says -

You will CONTINUE to be saved IF you continue in the faith that you HAD on the day you were saved.

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

You don't get to discard one scripture for another.

You must receive all the scriptural together as a whole.

You may have been saved by faith, but if chose disregard the scriptures concerning the mark of the beast and you decide to receive it because you believe there is nothing you can do to lose your salvation, because Ephesians 2:8 says you were saved by grace...

Then this scriptures will be your to have and to hold forever -

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

JLB

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

Show me how that interpretation and the Greek is wrong? The Greek has to be wrong if we conclude what you conclude.

Well, there you go.

It doesn't say that does it.

You added that to the scripture.

You have been...

That was then, this is NOW!

If you continue...

If you abide ...

If you don't turn aside unto Satan...

THE END OF YOUR FAITH IS THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL!!!


JLB

Show the readers how It was added. The original language is wrong?

 

[gr8grace]

Here it is for those who truly want to live in the blessed hope of our eternal security in Christ.

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of EPH 2: 8 T/ord
o 3588 fem artl dat s ------- *by the
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *For
caris 5485 fem ---- dat s noun--- grace
eimi 1510 pres act ind 2p ---verb *ye are being,
swzw 4982 perf pas nom p mas-Ptc *having been saved,
dia 1223 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- through
o 3588 fem artl gen s ------- the
pistis 4102 fem ---- gen s noun--- faith
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *and
outos 3778 neu ---- nom s pronoun this
ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- *out from
su 4771 ---- ---- gen p pronoun *yourselves
qeos 2316 mas ---- gen s noun--- *of God
o 3588 neu artl nom s ------- the
dwrov 1435 neu ---- nom s noun--- gift

The bold is the periphrastic Perfect that has been denied many times today.

 

[George Muller]

Here it is for those who truly want to live in the blessed hope of our eternal security in Christ.

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of EPH 2: 8 T/ord
o 3588 fem artl dat s ------- *by the
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *For
caris 5485 fem ---- dat s noun--- grace
eimi 1510 pres act ind 2p ---verb *ye are being,
swzw 4982 perf pas nom p mas-Ptc *having been saved,
dia 1223 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- through
o 3588 fem artl gen s ------- the
pistis 4102 fem ---- gen s noun--- faith
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *and
outos 3778 neu ---- nom s pronoun this
ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- *out from
su 4771 ---- ---- gen p pronoun *yourselves
qeos 2316 mas ---- gen s noun--- *of God
o 3588 neu artl nom s ------- the
dwrov 1435 neu ---- nom s noun--- gift

The bold is the periphrastic Perfect that has been denied many times today.

You can present facts, that are clear as day, but it takes "faith" to believe the facts.

 

[gr8grace]

Here it is for those who truly want to live in the blessed hope of our eternal security in Christ.

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of EPH 2: 8 T/ord
o 3588 fem artl dat s ------- *by the
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *For
caris 5485 fem ---- dat s noun--- grace
eimi 1510 pres act ind 2p ---verb *ye are being,
swzw 4982 perf pas nom p mas-Ptc *having been saved,
dia 1223 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- through
o 3588 fem artl gen s ------- the
pistis 4102 fem ---- gen s noun--- faith
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *and
outos 3778 neu ---- nom s pronoun this
ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- *out from
su 4771 ---- ---- gen p pronoun *yourselves
qeos 2316 mas ---- gen s noun--- *of God
o 3588 neu artl nom s ------- the
dwrov 1435 neu ---- nom s noun--- gift

The bold is the periphrastic Perfect that has been denied many times today.

You can present facts, that are clear as day, but it takes "faith" to believe the facts.

Agreed.

The "Faith" is the active ministry of the Holy Spirit in each and every believers life. If we are quenching or grieving His ministry to us, we will see the truth as foolishness.

Living in the idea of working for or losing salvation, we are grieving and quenching the Spirits ministry to us.

The Spirit Says ," You are mine and I will not let you go." the creature says ," Wait a minute, I can let go and make you release your grip."

The Hand of God Rational:

The hand of God rationale uses an anthropomorphism approach to illustrate eternal security. An anthropomorphism assigns a human characteristic or a part of the human body to God which God does not have. Another is assigning God a human emotion towards a person that He does not have, but uses a word so we can understand, like HATE towards Esau.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)


The word “never” in John 10:28-30 is a double negative in the Greek and means never, no not ever. Now, that is eternal security. Remember, a double negative in the Greek is different than in the English and provides much more emphasis on the negative when used. This passage goes on to say that no one is able to take them out of the hands of either Jesus Christ or the Father. This means that both the Father and the Son hold our hands. This is a sure-fire and eternal grip as found in Psalms 37:23-24.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)