OSAS is biblical truth.

[chessman]

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9


If you believe the Gospel and repent, then you are saved. The question is, will your faith continue to the end or will you deny Him.

…
Now it is up to you to explain why all these scriptures don't mean what they say.

Stating Ephesians 2:8, one scripture taken out of context just won't do it.

JLB

They do mean what they say. And I see no contradiction within them. All of the Scripture, that is.
But your statement(s) about Eph 2:8-9 contradict what that OP Topic Scripture says. For example. There is no “if”, “then”, “or” in Eph 2:8-9. But your interpretation inserts that into this text.
Plus the Greek pronoun neuter form for “it is a Gift” clearly shows that faith itself is just as much a gift from God as Grace is AND as salvation is.
Plus, Eph 2:8-9 IS in context to salvation. That’s the very point of the passage. Don’t “boast” about your faith, or your Grace or you Salvation. They are all gifts so why boast about them. That IS the point of this passage. Take that out, and it doesn’t say hardly anything.

 

[JLB]

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9


If you believe the Gospel and repent, then you are saved. The question is, will your faith continue to the end or will you deny Him.

…
Now it is up to you to explain why all these scriptures don't mean what they say.

Stating Ephesians 2:8, one scripture taken out of context just won't do it.

JLB

They do mean what they say. And I see no contradiction within them. All of the Scripture, that is.
But your statement(s) about Eph 2:8-9 contradict what that OP Topic Scripture says. For example. There is no “if”, “then”, “or” in Eph 2:8-9. But your interpretation inserts that into this text.
Plus the Greek pronoun neuter form for “it is a Gift” clearly shows that faith itself is just as much a gift from God as Grace is AND as salvation is.
Plus, Eph 2:8-9 IS in context to salvation. That’s the very point of the passage. Don’t “boast” about your faith, or your Grace or you Salvation. There are all gifts so why boast about them. That IS the point of this passage. Take that out, and it doesn’t say hardly anything.

One would just have to completely ignore all of the many many admonitions and teachings of the many different writers of the New Testament to come to the conclusion of Once Saved Always Saved, in the verse od Ephesians 2:8.

I believe that a person is legitimatly saved when they believe and obey the Gospel.

They are saved.

But no where in that statement does it insure that if a person turns away from the faith and embraces other gods, that their salvation is intact.

Ephesians 2:8 just doesn't say that.

Please show from each and every scripture that I referenced where you find a Once Saved Always Saved understanding.


JLB

 

[Elijah674]

And 2 Peter 2:19-22 has [[it stated]]...

[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man [is overcome,] of the same is he brought in bondage.

[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

It is a fact that this false teaching will by large fill hell! (there are some that had died believing it & living it for an exception) But NO one living when Christ comes will find life Eternal Life. Eccl. 12:13-14

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But no where in that statement does it insure that if a person turns away from the faith and embraces other gods, that their salvation is intact.

Ephesians 2:8 just doesn't say that.

The convoluted thinking is that since salvation is a free gift and we did nothing to earn it then there is nothing we can do to take away that which we did nothing to get.

The problem is the Protestant church has mistakenly included the 'work' of believing into the works that Paul says can't justify a person. But the very thing that that he contrasts the work that doesn't justify with is the work of believing.

Through God's gracious gift of faith (the ability to know the unseen gospel is true) we 'do' the work of believing--placing our trust in that which God has graciously and un-meritoriously shown us to be true. Most people reject that which God shows mankind to be true. A few accept that which God shows mankind to be true. Many are called, but few are chosen...chosen on the basis of believing/trusting, not just knowing something is true. That kind of faith, the faith that only knows, but doesn't trust, can't save a flea, but so many in the 'church' think it does, while they are busy indulging the appetites of the flesh in the name of grace--a grace they actually have not embraced. Their lifestyles being the evidence of that fact.

 

[JLB]

The problem is the Protestant church has mistakenly included the 'work' of believing into the works that Paul says can't justify a person. But the very thing that that he contrasts the work that doesn't justify with is the work of believing.

I think now would be a good time to discuss the work that James speaks of.

The work is the work of believing, however I would like to take the next step with that statement and say that the work of believing also includes the work of obeying.

The primary element of faith is obedience.

If Abraham "believes" God when He tells him to... -

1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:1-3

...Yet does not obey Him to follow through with the work of obeying and actually get's out of his fathers house and goes... Then his faith is dead, and there will be no Great Nation, there will be no Covenant, because he does not add the work of "obeying" what he hears God tell him to do.

When God speaks this command to Abraham, he has faith imparted to him because he hears God speak to him, however if Abraham does not do the work of obeying, then the faith that he received from God, when he spoke, will profit him nothing, because faith without works is dead.

We are to do, that is say obey the commands of God when He moves on us to do something.

These are the commandments we are to obey, that show our love for God.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

But no where in that statement does it insure that if a person turns away from the faith and embraces other gods, that their salvation is intact.

Ephesians 2:8 just doesn't say that.

The convoluted thinking is that since salvation is a free gift and we did nothing to earn it then there is nothing we can do to take away that which we did nothing to get.

The problem is the Protestant church has mistakenly included the 'work' of believing into the works that Paul says can't justify a person. But the very thing that that he contrasts the work that doesn't justify with is the work of believing.

Through God's gracious gift of faith (the ability to know the unseen gospel is true) we 'do' the work of believing--placing our trust in that which God has graciously and un-meritoriously shown us to be true. Most people reject that which God shows mankind to be true. A few accept that which God shows mankind to be true. Many are called, but few are chosen...chosen on the basis of believing/trusting, not just knowing something is true. That kind of faith, the faith that only knows, but doesn't trust, can't save a flea, but so many in the 'church' think it does, while they are busy indulging the appetites of the flesh in the name of grace--a grace they actually have not embraced. Their lifestyles being the evidence of that fact.

We have to believe. We all have the ability to believe or not. Common Grace is for all men. Any man can believe. Effectual Grace is when the Holy Spirit takes the mustard seed of faith from a spiritually dead creature and makes it effective for salvation. When we are speaking of normal and intelligent people.

Here is an old post from the beginning that was never addressed:

06-30-2013 08:26 AM #44
gr8grace

Join Date
Mar 2013
Location
Montana
Posts
374
Christian
Yes
Gender
Male
Re: OSAS is biblical truth.
Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
Originally Posted by gr8grace

gr8grace~~Eph 2:8 says that it is a done deal! Show how Eph 2:8 says that it really is not a done deal.
Jethro~~Why do you ignore the 'through faith' part?

Jehtro~~How is salvation still secured 'not through faith' if faith is removed from Ephesians 2:8?

That is what I can't get OSASer's to see. The part that is not a done deal is the faith part of the equation. It's still being tested and refined in all of us who profess Christ. JLB has been showing this over and over. Faith must persevere to the end to secure that which it most certainly and undoubtedly and without question or threat of loss secures. Understand?

Gr8grace~~Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

 

[JLB]

But no where in that statement does it insure that if a person turns away from the faith and embraces other gods, that their salvation is intact.

Ephesians 2:8 just doesn't say that.

The convoluted thinking is that since salvation is a free gift and we did nothing to earn it then there is nothing we can do to take away that which we did nothing to get.

The problem is the Protestant church has mistakenly included the 'work' of believing into the works that Paul says can't justify a person. But the very thing that that he contrasts the work that doesn't justify with is the work of believing.

Through God's gracious gift of faith (the ability to know the unseen gospel is true) we 'do' the work of believing--placing our trust in that which God has graciously and un-meritoriously shown us to be true. Most people reject that which God shows mankind to be true. A few accept that which God shows mankind to be true. Many are called, but few are chosen...chosen on the basis of believing/trusting, not just knowing something is true. That kind of faith, the faith that only knows, but doesn't trust, can't save a flea, but so many in the 'church' think it does, while they are busy indulging the appetites of the flesh in the name of grace--a grace they actually have not embraced. Their lifestyles being the evidence of that fact.

We have to believe. We all have the ability to believe or not. Common Grace is for all men. Any man can believe. Effectual Grace is when the Holy Spirit takes the mustard seed of faith from a spiritually dead creature and makes it effective for salvation. When we are speaking of normal and intelligent people.

Here is an old post from the beginning that was never addressed:

06-30-2013 08:26 AM #44
gr8grace

Join Date
Mar 2013
Location
Montana
Posts
374
Christian
Yes
Gender
Male
Re: OSAS is biblical truth.
Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
Originally Posted by gr8grace

gr8grace~~Eph 2:8 says that it is a done deal! Show how Eph 2:8 says that it really is not a done deal.
Jethro~~Why do you ignore the 'through faith' part?

Jehtro~~How is salvation still secured 'not through faith' if faith is removed from Ephesians 2:8?

That is what I can't get OSASer's to see. The part that is not a done deal is the faith part of the equation. It's still being tested and refined in all of us who profess Christ. JLB has been showing this over and over. Faith must persevere to the end to secure that which it most certainly and undoubtedly and without question or threat of loss secures. Understand?

Gr8grace~~Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12

and again -

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33


Now, I will apply "your" reasoning to 2 Timothy 2:13 -

He will never deny us because 2 Timothy 2:13 says ...for He cannot deny Himself .

But the truth is we have another scripture that is just as true that says - ... if we deny Him, He will deny us.


So it is with Ephesians 2:8, there are other scriptures that are just as true that balance the truth of Ephesians 2:8, one of which is 2 Timothy 2:12 and Matthew 10:33 and Colossians 1:23.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gr8grace~~Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

There is no argument here. When you believe you have laid hold of the sure and unmovable promise of God.

But the Bible is clear, you have to continue to believe to keep hold of the sure and unmovable promise of God. No Greek study is going to change that.

And that's not a works gospel. Believing is the very thing Paul contrasts with the works that can't justify. He does not include believing in the works that can't justify.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

You can be faithless and still be saved. It's what growing up into the stature of Christ is all about.

What you can not do is walk away from and deny your salvation. Christ will deny you if you do that.

The church is not very good at distinguishing between the weakness associated with being made more and more like Jesus in how we act, and an outright denial of the forgiveness of God a person has received.

 

[JLB]

The problem is the Protestant church has mistakenly included the 'work' of believing into the works that Paul says can't justify a person. But the very thing that that he contrasts the work that doesn't justify with is the work of believing.

I think now would be a good time to discuss the work that James speaks of.

The work is the work of believing, however I would like to take the next step with that statement and say that the work of believing also includes the work of obeying.

The primary element of faith is obedience.

If Abraham "believes" God when He tells him to... -

1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:1-3

...Yet does not obey Him to follow through with the work of obeying and actually get's out of his fathers house and goes... Then his faith is dead, and there will be no Great Nation, there will be no Covenant, because he does not add the work of "obeying" what he hears God tell him to do.

When God speaks this command to Abraham, he has faith imparted to him because he hears God speak to him, however if Abraham does not do the work of obeying, then the faith that he received from God, when he spoke, will profit him nothing, because faith without works is dead.

We are to do, that is say obey the commands of God when He moves on us to do something.

These are the commandments we are to obey, that show our love for God.


JLB

The matter of obedience and believing, or disobedience and unbelief is the same thing.

Look at this verse in Hebrews as rendered by the KJV and the NKJV -

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts." Hebrews 4:6-7 NKJV


6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said , To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Hebrews 4:6-7 KJV


The word unbelief and disobedience is the same Greek word.

You show that you don't believe God, when you fail to do what He says.

For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Romans 4:3

Abraham demonstrated his faith by getting out of his fathers house and going to a land that God would show him.

Abraham demonstrated his faith by obeying God when he was told to sacrifice his own son.



JLB

 

[gr8grace]

But no where in that statement does it insure that if a person turns away from the faith and embraces other gods, that their salvation is intact.

Ephesians 2:8 just doesn't say that.

The convoluted thinking is that since salvation is a free gift and we did nothing to earn it then there is nothing we can do to take away that which we did nothing to get.

The problem is the Protestant church has mistakenly included the 'work' of believing into the works that Paul says can't justify a person. But the very thing that that he contrasts the work that doesn't justify with is the work of believing.

Through God's gracious gift of faith (the ability to know the unseen gospel is true) we 'do' the work of believing--placing our trust in that which God has graciously and un-meritoriously shown us to be true. Most people reject that which God shows mankind to be true. A few accept that which God shows mankind to be true. Many are called, but few are chosen...chosen on the basis of believing/trusting, not just knowing something is true. That kind of faith, the faith that only knows, but doesn't trust, can't save a flea, but so many in the 'church' think it does, while they are busy indulging the appetites of the flesh in the name of grace--a grace they actually have not embraced. Their lifestyles being the evidence of that fact.

We have to believe. We all have the ability to believe or not. Common Grace is for all men. Any man can believe. Effectual Grace is when the Holy Spirit takes the mustard seed of faith from a spiritually dead creature and makes it effective for salvation. When we are speaking of normal and intelligent people.

Here is an old post from the beginning that was never addressed:

06-30-2013 08:26 AM #44
gr8grace

Join Date
Mar 2013
Location
Montana
Posts
374
Christian
Yes
Gender
Male
Re: OSAS is biblical truth.
Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
Originally Posted by gr8grace

gr8grace~~Eph 2:8 says that it is a done deal! Show how Eph 2:8 says that it really is not a done deal.
Jethro~~Why do you ignore the 'through faith' part?

Jehtro~~How is salvation still secured 'not through faith' if faith is removed from Ephesians 2:8?

That is what I can't get OSASer's to see. The part that is not a done deal is the faith part of the equation. It's still being tested and refined in all of us who profess Christ. JLB has been showing this over and over. Faith must persevere to the end to secure that which it most certainly and undoubtedly and without question or threat of loss secures. Understand?

Gr8grace~~Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12

and again -

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33


Now, I will apply "your" reasoning to 2 Timothy 2:13 -

He will never deny us because 2 Timothy 2:13 says ...for He cannot deny Himself .

But the truth is we have another scripture that is just as true that says - ... if we deny Him, He will deny us.


So it is with Ephesians 2:8, there are other scriptures that are just as true that balance the truth of Ephesians 2:8, one of which is 2 Timothy 2:12 and Matthew 10:33 and Colossians 1:23.


JLB

What is being overlooked is 2 Tim 2:11~~It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

For IF we died with Him, is a first class conditional clause. If we have died with AND WE HAVE, we will also live with Him.....our union with Christ, we are a part of Him.

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; He will deny us reign and rewards.

So the Spirit shows us what happens after that. We will be denied rewards and our reign if we deny him. It would be nice if we could get past salvation and do some digging into these rewards and reigning with Christ. Some people will spend their whole lives not getting past the simple doctrine of salvation and stay a baby in Christ. If the believer spends His whole life working at and trying to stay saved, that leaves no time to carry on and learn what we do after we are forever saved and live the spiritual life.

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.....Back to verse 11, we have died with Him, we are a part of Him. He cannot deny Himself.

Matt 10:33~~Is rewards also. He says this in Matt 10:31~~"So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

Then He goes on to talk of these rewards in Matt 10:40-42.

There are specific rewards for the prophet. There are specific rewards for the righteous. There are specific rewards for the disciple. The reward of service.

Col 1:23~~Post #93:

The warning in Colossians 1:21–23 shows that Christian assurance can be subverted by false doctrine and legalistic tendencies. When such hope is undermined, so is the basis for a strong
faith in God and a fruitful life toward others.Christians should not be like others who have no hope,1 Thess 4:13. Christians should ,live and die as they look expectantly for the realization of their Hope.

Col 1:5~~ because of the hope laid up for you in Heaven.

Col 1:22~~yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

This verse speaks of the believers evaluation at the Bema seat or judgement seat of Christ. There are Going to be Babes in Christ and Mature believers presented before him. It is our progressive sanctification in this life as a believer that will be presented to Christ at the Bema seat.

Col 1:23~~ is saying IF we continue in the Hope and In the Gospel and do not listen to false teaching and Go astray with legalism and works(human good), we will mature and be presented Holy and blameless. Mature believers will have lived a life as unto the Lord for the most part.

And there will be believers who will not be presented as Holy and Blameless in their progressive sanctification.

1 Cor 3:14-15~~If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Charles C. Bing writes,

The concept of being presented to the Lord is found elsewhere
in the New Testament (2 Cor. 4:14; 11:2; Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 5:23;
Jude 24), and in every case (except 2 Cor. 4:14), the quality of the
presentation is in view. Romans 14:10 uses the same verb for
―present to indicate the believer‘s appearance before
the Lord for evaluation at the judgment seat of Christ. While a future presentation to the Lord is guaranteed for all believers, a favorable presentation before the Lord, in which they are holy,
blameless, and beyond reproach, is stated as the desirable goal for
all believers. While all believers will be presented to Christ fully
justified in position, not all will be blameless in experience (1 Cor.
3:13–15; 4:5; 1 John 2:28).

I fully agree with Charles.

 

[gr8grace]

Gr8grace~~Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

There is no argument here. When you believe you have laid hold of the sure and unmovable promise of God.

But the Bible is clear, you have to continue to believe to keep hold of the sure and unmovable promise of God. No Greek study is going to change that.

And that's not a works gospel. Believing is the very thing Paul contrasts with the works that can't justify. He does not include believing in the works that can't justify.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

You can be faithless and still be saved. It's what growing up into the stature of Christ is all about.

What you can not do is walk away from and deny your salvation. Christ will deny you if you do that.

The church is not very good at distinguishing between the weakness associated with being made more and more like Jesus in how we act, and an outright denial of the forgiveness of God a person has received.

Yes Jethro, a Good Greek study will show that you are mistaken. The moment you believe you are forever saved by the object of Your faith, Christ. Its a one shot deal and its done. One has to deny the Greek and the original God breathed word to come to your conclusion.

We can either take it or leave it. But here are some great Greek study books. The original language will show that you are mistaken.

Greek Word Study Books
(The following is a list of helpful Greek Word Study Tools
· VINE, W. E.; UNGER, MERRILL F.; AND WHITE, WILLIAM, JR.
Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1985
· ROGERS, CLEON L., JR.; ROGERS, CLEON L. III
The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament
Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1998
· ZODHIATES, SPIROS
The Complete Word Study New Testament
Chattanooga, Tennessee: AMG International, Inc. 1991
· WUEST, KENNETH S.
Wuest’s Word Studies (3 volumes)
Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1973

 

[JLB]

We have to believe. We all have the ability to believe or not. Common Grace is for all men. Any man can believe. Effectual Grace is when the Holy Spirit takes the mustard seed of faith from a spiritually dead creature and makes it effective for salvation. When we are speaking of normal and intelligent people.

Here is an old post from the beginning that was never addressed:

06-30-2013 08:26 AM #44
gr8grace

Join Date
Mar 2013
Location
Montana
Posts
374
Christian
Yes
Gender
Male
Re: OSAS is biblical truth.
Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
Originally Posted by gr8grace

gr8grace~~Eph 2:8 says that it is a done deal! Show how Eph 2:8 says that it really is not a done deal.
Jethro~~Why do you ignore the 'through faith' part?

Jehtro~~How is salvation still secured 'not through faith' if faith is removed from Ephesians 2:8?

That is what I can't get OSASer's to see. The part that is not a done deal is the faith part of the equation. It's still being tested and refined in all of us who profess Christ. JLB has been showing this over and over. Faith must persevere to the end to secure that which it most certainly and undoubtedly and without question or threat of loss secures. Understand?

Gr8grace~~Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12

and again -

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33


Now, I will apply "your" reasoning to 2 Timothy 2:13 -

He will never deny us because 2 Timothy 2:13 says ...for He cannot deny Himself .

But the truth is we have another scripture that is just as true that says - ... if we deny Him, He will deny us.


So it is with Ephesians 2:8, there are other scriptures that are just as true that balance the truth of Ephesians 2:8, one of which is 2 Timothy 2:12 and Matthew 10:33 and Colossians 1:23.


JLB

What is being overlooked is 2 Tim 2:11~~It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

For IF we died with Him, is a first class conditional clause. If we have died with AND WE HAVE, we will also live with Him.....our union with Christ, we are a part of Him.

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; He will deny us reign and rewards.

So the Spirit shows us what happens after that. We will be denied rewards and our reign if we deny him. It would be nice if we could get past salvation and do some digging into these rewards and reigning with Christ. Some people will spend their whole lives not getting past the simple doctrine of salvation and stay a baby in Christ. If the believer spends His whole life working at and trying to stay saved, that leaves no time to carry on and learn what we do after we are forever saved and live the spiritual life.

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.....Back to verse 11, we have died with Him, we are a part of Him. He cannot deny Himself.

Matt 10:33~~Is rewards also. He says this in Matt 10:31~~"So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

Then He goes on to talk of these rewards in Matt 10:40-42.

There are specific rewards for the prophet. There are specific rewards for the righteous. There are specific rewards for the disciple. The reward of service.

Col 1:23~~Post #93:

The warning in Colossians 1:21–23 shows that Christian assurance can be subverted by false doctrine and legalistic tendencies. When such hope is undermined, so is the basis for a strong
faith in God and a fruitful life toward others.Christians should not be like others who have no hope,1 Thess 4:13. Christians should ,live and die as they look expectantly for the realization of their Hope.

Col 1:5~~ because of the hope laid up for you in Heaven.

Col 1:22~~yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

This verse speaks of the believers evaluation at the Bema seat or judgement seat of Christ. There are Going to be Babes in Christ and Mature believers presented before him. It is our progressive sanctification in this life as a believer that will be presented to Christ at the Bema seat.

Col 1:23~~ is saying IF we continue in the Hope and In the Gospel and do not listen to false teaching and Go astray with legalism and works(human good), we will mature and be presented Holy and blameless. Mature believers will have lived a life as unto the Lord for the most part.

And there will be believers who will not be presented as Holy and Blameless in their progressive sanctification.

1 Cor 3:14-15~~If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Charles C. Bing writes,

The concept of being presented to the Lord is found elsewhere
in the New Testament (2 Cor. 4:14; 11:2; Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 5:23;
Jude 24), and in every case (except 2 Cor. 4:14), the quality of the
presentation is in view. Romans 14:10 uses the same verb for
―present to indicate the believer‘s appearance before
the Lord for evaluation at the judgment seat of Christ. While a future presentation to the Lord is guaranteed for all believers, a favorable presentation before the Lord, in which they are holy,
blameless, and beyond reproach, is stated as the desirable goal for
all believers. While all believers will be presented to Christ fully
justified in position, not all will be blameless in experience (1 Cor.
3:13–15; 4:5; 1 John 2:28).

I fully agree with Charles.

You can fully agree with Charles or John Calvin all you want, what matters is What Jesus said and what Paul said.


6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end... 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:6,12-14

We won't know if I have in fact remained in my salvation until Jesus returns and verifies that I have not departed from the living God, and that my hope is firm to the end, which is why the scripture says -

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

and again -


9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9


That is why the scripture says; Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:19


These scriptures can not be ignored and they need no commentary or explanation.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The verb “are” is eime in the Greek and means the absolute status quo existence, referring to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus. If there was a chance you could lose your salvation, it would not say “to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus.” We have an eternal union with Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The verb “are” is eime in the Greek and means the absolute status quo existence, referring to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus. If there was a chance you could lose your salvation, it would not say “to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus.” We have an eternal union with Christ Jesus.

Let's look at the whole verse -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

The position of "are in Christ" is maintained by not walking in the flesh.

Which Paul clearly lays out for us in what he say here -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Looking at the whole verse and not an isolated part is important to understanding the whole counsel of God.

If you have so many scriptures that oppose your doctrine, its safe to say you need a more balanced perspective.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

I see now why you have to defend a false doctrine so vehemently.

You own personal hypocrisy must find away around the truth of scripture.

George, your going to have to learn to get free from sin just like everyone else.

Here is a "personal attack" where is the edit? Where is the standard?:dunno

George,

This is an observation that I made about you, when you chose to open this kind of dialog with you initial comment to me.

Let's just stick to the scriptures and our personal testimonies of how God has brought us out of the bondage of the flesh, and taught us how to have victory by sowing to the spirit, and living from our new nature.


JLB

My personal testimony is that in and through the grace of God, I live a blamless life above reproach . And the holiness of Gods Spirit dwells upon me in such a manner that often if I even look at sinners or stand near to sinners they come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is also my testimony that I have NEVER SEEN a legalist who lives Godly, for all are filled with bitterness, anger, hatred, envy and strife and I have seen "none" that have the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy peace...etc "All" are hypocrites in that they judge and condemn others by standards that they do not keep themselves. The only biblical answer to the issue of sin and sin in the flesh, is the Spirit of Grace, the law produces sinful lust and desires in all who look to the law. "for the strength of sin is the law" Now the reason I posted this last post was to point out what is clear to all who are honest of heart.

 

[George Muller]

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The verb “are” is eime in the Greek and means the absolute status quo existence, referring to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus. If there was a chance you could lose your salvation, it would not say “to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus.” We have an eternal union with Christ Jesus.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[gr8grace]

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The verb “are” is eime in the Greek and means the absolute status quo existence, referring to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus. If there was a chance you could lose your salvation, it would not say “to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus.” We have an eternal union with Christ Jesus.

Let's look at the whole verse -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

The position of "are in Christ" is maintained by not walking in the flesh.

Which Paul clearly lays out for us in what he say here -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Looking at the whole verse and not an isolated part is important to understanding the whole counsel of God.

If you have so many scriptures that oppose your doctrine, its safe to say you need a more balanced perspective.


JLB

The King James version got Rom 8:1 wrong. ...., who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.~~ is NOT in the original language.

Romans 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.PERIOD.

 

[gr8grace]

We have to believe. We all have the ability to believe or not. Common Grace is for all men. Any man can believe. Effectual Grace is when the Holy Spirit takes the mustard seed of faith from a spiritually dead creature and makes it effective for salvation. When we are speaking of normal and intelligent people.

Here is an old post from the beginning that was never addressed:

06-30-2013 08:26 AM #44
gr8grace

Join Date
Mar 2013
Location
Montana
Posts
374
Christian
Yes
Gender
Male
Re: OSAS is biblical truth.
Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine
Originally Posted by gr8grace

gr8grace~~Eph 2:8 says that it is a done deal! Show how Eph 2:8 says that it really is not a done deal.
Jethro~~Why do you ignore the 'through faith' part?

Jehtro~~How is salvation still secured 'not through faith' if faith is removed from Ephesians 2:8?

That is what I can't get OSASer's to see. The part that is not a done deal is the faith part of the equation. It's still being tested and refined in all of us who profess Christ. JLB has been showing this over and over. Faith must persevere to the end to secure that which it most certainly and undoubtedly and without question or threat of loss secures. Understand?

Gr8grace~~Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12

and again -

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33


Now, I will apply "your" reasoning to 2 Timothy 2:13 -

He will never deny us because 2 Timothy 2:13 says ...for He cannot deny Himself .

But the truth is we have another scripture that is just as true that says - ... if we deny Him, He will deny us.


So it is with Ephesians 2:8, there are other scriptures that are just as true that balance the truth of Ephesians 2:8, one of which is 2 Timothy 2:12 and Matthew 10:33 and Colossians 1:23.


JLB

What is being overlooked is 2 Tim 2:11~~It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

For IF we died with Him, is a first class conditional clause. If we have died with AND WE HAVE, we will also live with Him.....our union with Christ, we are a part of Him.

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; He will deny us reign and rewards.

So the Spirit shows us what happens after that. We will be denied rewards and our reign if we deny him. It would be nice if we could get past salvation and do some digging into these rewards and reigning with Christ. Some people will spend their whole lives not getting past the simple doctrine of salvation and stay a baby in Christ. If the believer spends His whole life working at and trying to stay saved, that leaves no time to carry on and learn what we do after we are forever saved and live the spiritual life.

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.....Back to verse 11, we have died with Him, we are a part of Him. He cannot deny Himself.

Matt 10:33~~Is rewards also. He says this in Matt 10:31~~"So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

Then He goes on to talk of these rewards in Matt 10:40-42.

There are specific rewards for the prophet. There are specific rewards for the righteous. There are specific rewards for the disciple. The reward of service.

Col 1:23~~Post #93:

The warning in Colossians 1:21–23 shows that Christian assurance can be subverted by false doctrine and legalistic tendencies. When such hope is undermined, so is the basis for a strong
faith in God and a fruitful life toward others.Christians should not be like others who have no hope,1 Thess 4:13. Christians should ,live and die as they look expectantly for the realization of their Hope.

Col 1:5~~ because of the hope laid up for you in Heaven.

Col 1:22~~yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

This verse speaks of the believers evaluation at the Bema seat or judgement seat of Christ. There are Going to be Babes in Christ and Mature believers presented before him. It is our progressive sanctification in this life as a believer that will be presented to Christ at the Bema seat.

Col 1:23~~ is saying IF we continue in the Hope and In the Gospel and do not listen to false teaching and Go astray with legalism and works(human good), we will mature and be presented Holy and blameless. Mature believers will have lived a life as unto the Lord for the most part.

And there will be believers who will not be presented as Holy and Blameless in their progressive sanctification.

1 Cor 3:14-15~~If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Charles C. Bing writes,

The concept of being presented to the Lord is found elsewhere
in the New Testament (2 Cor. 4:14; 11:2; Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 5:23;
Jude 24), and in every case (except 2 Cor. 4:14), the quality of the
presentation is in view. Romans 14:10 uses the same verb for
―present to indicate the believer‘s appearance before
the Lord for evaluation at the judgment seat of Christ. While a future presentation to the Lord is guaranteed for all believers, a favorable presentation before the Lord, in which they are holy,
blameless, and beyond reproach, is stated as the desirable goal for
all believers. While all believers will be presented to Christ fully
justified in position, not all will be blameless in experience (1 Cor.
3:13–15; 4:5; 1 John 2:28).

I fully agree with Charles.

You can fully agree with Charles or John Calvin all you want, what matters is What Jesus said and what Paul said.


6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end... 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:6,12-14

We won't know if I have in fact remained in my salvation until Jesus returns and verifies that I have not departed from the living God, and that my hope is firm to the end, which is why the scripture says -

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

and again -


9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9


That is why the scripture says; Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 2 Timothy 2:19


These scriptures can not be ignored and they need no commentary or explanation.


JLB

very, very interesting! I have a hunch about something but do not know for sure? Why would you bring up John Calvin? Because His teaching and the reformation has made shipwreck of true grace and mercy.

If you have classified me as a calvinist, no wonder you cannot see anything I write.

T~~ we Have the ability to believe or not believe.

U~~The elect are Men who have believed. All men are called, the Elect are people who believed.

L~~ Limited atonement....Yeah right! It was unlimited, Christ died for ALL sin. ALL can believe.

I~~We can surely resist His Grace before we are saved.

P~~Perseverance of the saints....when you get to the end of it, it is Lordship salvation(works salvation). If they didn't preform just right, then they were not really saved...Hogwash.

Eternal security is the biblical belief that ALL believers are saved and PRESERVED by Christ Himself. The behavior of our Savior saves the creature not the behavior of the creature.

Added: If one really studies and looks into Calvinism and perseverance of the saints and draws it out to its logical conclusion, It says the same thing as Arminianism and loss of salvation.

Calvinism~~Perseverance of the saints says," if you did not persevere in the faith and the Good works that shows that faith, then one was really not saved." So Good works ends up saving a person in the end.

Arminianism~~Losing ones salvation depends on our continued faith and good works shows that continued faith.

Both are works based in the end.

And not very far from Catholicism.....the devils trump card.

 

[George Muller]

Rom 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The verb “are” is eime in the Greek and means the absolute status quo existence, referring to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus. If there was a chance you could lose your salvation, it would not say “to those who always keep on being in Christ Jesus.” We have an eternal union with Christ Jesus.

Let's look at the whole verse -

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

The position of "are in Christ" is maintained by not walking in the flesh.

Which Paul clearly lays out for us in what he say here -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Looking at the whole verse and not an isolated part is important to understanding the whole counsel of God.

If you have so many scriptures that oppose your doctrine, its safe to say you need a more balanced perspective.


JLB

The King James version got Rom 8:1 wrong. ...., who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.~~ is NOT in the original language.

Romans 8:1~~There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.PERIOD.

Well the cool part is that when a believer walks in the Blood and light of the Blood they are in fact in the Spirit. When one walks in condemnation and guilt of the flesh, they are in the flesh. To be "in the Spirit" means one is walking in the justified condition of the spirit. And of course all honest scholars admit that the KJV is in error on this passage of scripture.

 

[George Muller]

very, very interesting! I have a hunch about something but do not know for sure? Why would you bring up John Calvin? Because His teaching and the reformation has made shipwreck of true grace and mercy.

If you have classified me as a calvinist, no wonder you cannot see anything I write.

I must admit Great, that I thought you came from a Calvinist viewpoint as well? I am glad that you hold the true grace and mercy of God and are not subject to traditions of man.