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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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hahaha, some go as far as to say they don't actually have to meet again,
or even stay in touch, but one day they will get married by that person anyway.
it's how I would describe 'robot-logic' still waiting for the first kiss of true love,
while having a doctrine of the realtionship, instead of the actual realtionship.
I think it's the soul that can be set on "positive conditioning" where doctrine
is repeated until it becomes "personal belief" regardless of the actual reality of it.
Doctrine gets "stored" rather than realized. And does not necessarily touch personal
reality. Without direct conequences. I think the Bible uses the word "dead" for it.
Ok, I do have something to say as well, and I got aware of it just a few days ago,
it has to do with man as spirit-soul-body.
Could it be possible that both fractions of understanding here are partly "correct",
and the new testament talks about salvation of the spirit, what is by grace alone,
our human spirit gets quickened by the Holy Spirit, while other scripture references
(the larger parts of) talk about salvation of the soul that includes our personality.
IF refined through the cross, we can keep the soul, otherwise we loose it. It's conditional,
therefore we have a church-age for the process. But never can loose our salvation of
our human spirit, once regenerated. That would need to be determined what this actually
means in reality, and what this "saved without personality" would be like in heaven.
Or if we even can knowingly have a part of it, as 'knowing' is part of our personality, our soul.
working out of soul salvation is work that leads to justification as righteousness,
it's not only just rewards, it's about salvation of the soul. Scripture that relates:
Matthew 10:39  He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for
my sake shall find it.
What means according to that: The ones that live a life centered in the soul
and a life gratifying the soul will loose their soul, but the ones that accept the cross
with all its prunings and its daily deaths shall find (and keep) their purified soul
in salvation
I think what Luther never really understood, and somehow saw as not belonging is:
James 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
without that however nobody can be pleasing to God, no election to firstfruits, and
most likely no position or reward in the kingdom in heaven. Dead faith is Not guaranteed
to be of value in any way, the soul salvation can be lost (Matthew 10:39 ), where spirit
salvation cannot be lost. But can that become personal in any way for us
or does it return to God at time of our death?
Once we are saved, we are always saved. Being a born-again Christian takes about as much work as thanking someone from rescuing us from a burning fire. But those who do not have God's love in their hearts are condemned to work, never reaching their goal just like the myth of Cysyphus. He kept pushing a boulder up the hill and it kept sliding back down upon him. He'll never reach his goal because he is pursuing the wrong thing. People who rely on works to get to heaven are working to get love from God instead of out of love for God. Only the HS can give us the love for God in our hearts which no one can ever jump in and take out. We will thus, die with God's love in our hearts and keep it throughout eternity. :angel:
J
Jay T
Guest
I believe that this statement is in error.AVBunyan said:
Because the Gsopel of Jesus Christ started with Adam & Eve.....based on the Bible verse which says: Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".
As soon as Adam and Eve sinned, Christ stepped in and made the provision of Grace, that they should have another chance, and Christ accepted the death penalty, for their sin at that time.....which was to be executed later.
In other words, The plan of Salvation was put into practice as soon as sin occurred.
The Gospel Message has NEVER changed from the Old Testament, to the New.....as Paul brought out to Timothy.....
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
And, only the OT was available at that time.
[/quote:8236d][/quote:8236d]
Heidi said:
Heidi
Was this in response to my question or to another? In any case I appreciate your position and while I will not deny a person their belief that since they are saved, they will always be saved, I'm interested in your persective of AVB's "Dead men cannot and will not choose God." And for this reason. The church has a common belief, and that is that irrespective of whether man chooses God or God chooses man, man can only end up in one of two places. Now if he goes to heaven he has an eternal reward. But if he goes to hell he has eternal suffering. You see in both cases by my reckoning the person has eternal life. How do you see this?
Regards
D
duncdawg
Guest
"So, if you believe in OSAS, tell me this.... do you believe in 'Once Lost, always lost?" - L. Ravenhill
Boo - yeah.... :smt117
Boo - yeah.... :smt117
D
duncdawg
Guest
mutzrein said:
Not sure. I like it though.
S
Simple Mind
Guest
Late comer to this discussion. Interesting question ...duncdawg said:
But I gather OSAS is incompatible with OLAL - OSAS says God is biasing the situation in our favor, OLAL biases to our detriment. Hope that makes sense ...
Eternal existence in hell is no life ... Jesus contrasted "eternal life" against "everlasting punishment" in Matt 25:26. I always get puzzled when non-believers talk about wanting to be with their friends in hell - I'm afraid there is nothing nice like friendship there.mutzrein said:
Blessings,
Lou
Simple Mind said:Late comer to this discussion. Interesting question ...duncdawg said:
But I gather OSAS is incompatible with OLAL - OSAS says God is biasing the situation in our favor, OLAL biases to our detriment. Hope that makes sense ...
Eternal existence in hell is no life ... Jesus contrasted "eternal life" against "everlasting punishment" in Matt 25:26. I always get puzzled when non-believers talk about wanting to be with their friends in hell - I'm afraid there is nothing nice like friendship there.mutzrein said:
Blessings,
Lou
Mmmm I think you've picked up on something I wasn't really saying. I'm not saying that people would want to be in hell. I'm saying that if they are suffering in hell forever it would indicate that thay are alive. So if the suffering is eternal, then of necessity they would have to have eternal life. And I wasn't referring to this as something I necessarily adhere to but something that Christendom in general believes.
S
Simple Mind
Guest
mutzrein said:Simple Mind said:Late comer to this discussion. Interesting question ...duncdawg said:
But I gather OSAS is incompatible with OLAL - OSAS says God is biasing the situation in our favor, OLAL biases to our detriment. Hope that makes sense ...
Eternal existence in hell is no life ... Jesus contrasted "eternal life" against "everlasting punishment" in Matt 25:26. I always get puzzled when non-believers talk about wanting to be with their friends in hell - I'm afraid there is nothing nice like friendship there.mutzrein said:
Blessings,
Lou
Mmmm I think you've picked up on something I wasn't really saying. I'm not saying that people would want to be in hell. I'm saying that if they are suffering in hell forever it would indicate that thay are alive. So if the suffering is eternal, then of necessity they would have to have eternal life. And I wasn't referring to this as something I necessarily adhere to but something that Christendom in general believes.
Sorry, I should have been clearer - I did a no-no and drifted off to a statement that had nothing to do with you
: - I had assumed you are Christian so that statement was really an aside and didn't apply to you.My understanding is that the Biblical definition of eternal death is eternal separation from God. It's like someone saying "I have no life" - well they're clearly "alive" when they say it. I understand it to be the quality that makes life, not the quantity of 1 or 0.
Much blessings,
Lou
S
Simple Mind
Guest
mutzrein said:
Lets say "aware" rather than "alive". Matt 25:46 would seem to be Jesus explaining what "perish" means.
In Christ,
Lou
Simple Mind said:
Lets say "aware" rather than "alive". Matt 25:46 would seem to be Jesus explaining what "perish" means.
In Christ,
Lou[/quote:ffbb6]
Do you not think that if Jesus meant that the goats would perish that he would say 'perish' rather than ‘go away to eternal punishment’? Or could it be that what Jesus is saying is something different to ‘perish’.
Regards
S
Simple Mind
Guest
mutzrein said:
Yes, I totally agree He meant eternal punishment. But I think the two are not contradictory - besides the fact that Jesus doesn't contradict Himself, the language is not contradictory.
The range of meaning for the Greek word for "perish" is wider than perhaps what we would immediately associate with the English word. For example in Matt 10:6 it is used to refer to the "lost" sheep of Israel - it doesn't mean they were destroyed since physically there were alive, and the disciples were instructed to go to them with the Gospel message so it doesn't mean they were anihilated spiritually either. It is used for "lost" many times in John also. It is also used to mean "die". Clearly, the exact meaning is ambiguous in the context of John 3:16 alone and Jesus didn't explain it there (or John didn't record the explanation).
However, Matt 25:46 makes the meaning very plain and clear. Jesus explains it in clear and direct language. There is a symmetry to Jesus' sentence - eternal life vs eternal punishment. This verse doesn't contradict "perish" in John 3:16, but narrows its range of possible meanings to something unambiguous.
Attempts to give this verse some other meaning than what is plainly said by using OT and other verses that refer to other situations and topics breaks a couple of rules of interpretation - the less ambiguous text should have more authority over the more ambiguous, and the texts closer to the issue have more authority (same chapter, same book, same speaker, same subject all carries more weight), especially when Jesus speaks plainly. The attempt to use Isa 34:10 falls into this trap: Isaiah was using metaphorical language in Hebrew to describe the destruction of a city in the OT. Using that as being more authoritative than Mt 25:46 has serious problems. Besides, there is an easy explanation why Isa 34 really did mean forever literally.
Much blessings,
Lou
My children know I lov'em...no matter what I make sure they know by what I've done for them in the past, what I do for them in the present and how I remain faithful to the task of raising them up. I correct or punish them in love, I guide them in love...no matter what happens they'll always be my children and they know that...nothing they do will remove them from my heart, they'll always be my children.
Once a loving father, always a loving father...once saved, always faithful.
jm
Once a loving father, always a loving father...once saved, always faithful.
jm
Simple Mind said:
I don't really see any ambiguity in John 3:16. It says perish - and that is what it means.
So, I differentiate between perishing and eternal punishment. Those who are not given eternal life as in John 3:16 will perish. Those who try to achieve righteousness by what they do (rather than by faith) are the goats, hence their eternal puishment.