OSAS....Not !

[Solo]

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17

Thanks Solo – you have taken two passages of scripture to support your point of view and since I have a different understanding of each of them (and because of constraints on my time) I would like to deal with them one at a time.

Your first highlighted passage is of course contained within a chapter in which Paul is addressing those who he says are worldly, carnal and mere babes – amongst whom is strife and divisions.

And Paul goes on to say that the foundation he has laid is Jesus Christ. “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.†So it is clear Paul is talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet as Paul explains, some say I follow Paul, others I follow Apollos etc. Paul berates them and calls them carnal because of their envying, strife & division.

Now it is the same today and forums such as this are one evidence of what Paul is talking about. Of course I am not saying that there is anything wrong with a forum but what it does is to give people voice in exactly the same way that Paul describes. Some say I follow this man (or church or particular theology) and others I follow that.

So on the foundation of the gospel, men will build theologies & doctrines – some sound and others perhaps not. Now each will be tried and ultimately exposed by the purging of God’s fire as to the truth or otherwise they proclaim - some to remain & some to be burned. Though the work of some will be burned, these men nevertheless were men born of God - but what they built on the foundation (of Jesus Christ), in some cases was not sound. Yes they suffered loss because much of what they believed and even taught others to believe to be true was actually tried and found to be wanting. And so the wood hay stubble of their work was consumed. Yet they themselves would be saved since they were born of God. And we praise God for his mercy and grace in allowing us to make mistakes but yet remain within the measure of faith that He has given us.

However the second part of this passage speaks of one who also having received the spirit of God, defiles himself. Of him it is said, God shall destroy. Now Paul is not saying that his work is tested by fire, but since he has defiled the temple of the Holy Spirit it is ‘him’ that is destroyed.
This is one who after starting with the Spirit (and perhaps initially having built on Christ) is attempting to live by their own righteousness thereby usurping the righteousness imputed by faith in Christ. Rather than a walk of faith (living by the Spirit that was given to him) he has defiled himself by saying that he can acheive a righteousness outside of faith.

Now this is the very situation that Paul wrote to the Galatians about. “Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Later on in Galatians Paul contrasts those who live by the spirit and those who don’t. “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.†And remember he is addressing believers.

And afterwards Paul continues to exhort these ones not to rely on their own wisdom because to do so is foolishness, the very situation which initially leads man to think that what he builds is of God and then when he becomes puffed up by his own importance he regresses to a position of self righteousness. A condition that at the end of the day, God will not tolerate – and those who do persist in it will be destroyed. They will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

According to your understanding, you will have to walk in the Spirit 24 hours per day, 7 days per week until Jesus returns or be in danger of Him coming at a time prior to your repenting of a sin. You also will have to continue to be born again in order to experience eternal life, for those that believe in Jesus Christ according to the scriptures are born of God.

I am confident that Jesus has overcome my flesh, and has sealed my redemption by His holy Spirit, and that I am one who the Father gave to Him. I used to think that a person could lose their salvation, but I learned over the last 22 years that I was sadly mistaken. What God does, He does well. Man is unable to keep himself saved.

It is pretty easy to confuse the saved inward man with the sinful flesh when reading the scriptures, but one must rightly divide the Word and listen intently to the Holy Spirit when He speaks. He convinced me that He is able and I am not.

 

[AVBunyan]

It is pretty easy to confuse the saved inward man with the sinful flesh when reading the scriptures, but one must rightly divide the Word and listen intently to the Holy Spirit when He speaks. He convinced me that He is able and I am not.

Nicely and simply put Solo - thanks

God bless 8-)

 

[Heidi]

Romans 8:1,

"Therefore there is now no conemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..."

I repeat; "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus..."

That is not a lie, it's the truth. Once the Holy Spirit enters us, it does not jump back outside of us. But only true born again believers know that."

 

[duncdawg]

That is not a lie, it's the truth. Once the Holy Spirit enters us, it does not jump back outside of us. But only true born again believers know that."

We can reject it though. Free will is a gift from God, prooving His love. We have the choice to turn away. 8-)

 

[mutzrein]

Solo

Perhaps a comment here just to allay any suspicion you may have as to my posts. I should make something clear – I don’t seek to deter you from your belief, your understanding, or your knowledge of your security in Christ – because I know as you do that nothing can separate you from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. And I don’t seek to deter you from your belief that having been given eternal life – or having been born again - that you can be ‘unborn.’

The reason for my approach is not an effort to persuade you otherwise but that I might provoke you to thought on issues pertaining to questions I often see posted that no-one seems to be able to answer.

Even though I may agree or disagree with a particular statement I need to determine what that person’s premise is because although the words they use may agree with what I believe, my premise may be completely different and therefore the interpretation of what is being stated can be taken differently.

So I don’t want to question someone’s belief for the sake of it – I want to know why they believe it and what they are using to support it. This will tell me what their premise is - and in time mine will be evident too.

Regards

 

[Solo]

mutzrein,
After I explained my self to you on the basis of your questions, you came back with a post that was derogatory, claiming a different perspective as you have your mind made up on the issue; therefore I answered you with those areas that I had already tred many, many times as God taught me His truth about eternal security through Jesus Christ. He explained to me in a very impressive manner, that my thoughts were wrong when I believed that I, a born again Christian, could lose my salvation. There is absolutly no doubt about this facet of my Christianity. If it is a question of yours, only God will answer you to your satisfaction. Good luck.

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein,
After I explained my self to you on the basis of your questions, you came back with a post that was derogatory, claiming a different perspective as you have your mind made up on the issue; therefore I answered you with those areas that I had already tred many, many times as God taught me His truth about eternal security through Jesus Christ. He explained to me in a very impressive manner, that my thoughts were wrong when I believed that I, a born again Christian, could lose my salvation. There is absolutly no doubt about this facet of my Christianity. If it is a question of yours, only God will answer you to your satisfaction. Good luck.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that any of my posts were offensive or derogatory. What was it that I said that offended you?

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

We can reject it though. Free will is a gift from God, prooving His love. We have the choice to turn away. 8-)

You mean that by your "powerful" choice you can undo all that God did in the first 3 chapters of Ephesians? :o :o :o

Man, that is some power you have there my friend! :o

Let's back up here - do you even know and understand what God does for the sinner as it is explained in Ephesians, Colossians, and Romans?

God bless 8-)

 

[duncdawg]

Let's back up here - do you even know and understand what God does for the sinner as it is explained in Ephesians, Colossians, and Romans?

God bless 8-)

Yes I do understand. God's grace is a free gift to anyone who will accept it. God does not force His grace on anyone. He leaves it up to the individual. It's not that I have any great power, He gives me the choice.

That, my friend, is what love is.

 

[Solo]

mutzrein,
After I explained my self to you on the basis of your questions, you came back with a post that was derogatory, claiming a different perspective as you have your mind made up on the issue; therefore I answered you with those areas that I had already tred many, many times as God taught me His truth about eternal security through Jesus Christ. He explained to me in a very impressive manner, that my thoughts were wrong when I believed that I, a born again Christian, could lose my salvation. There is absolutly no doubt about this facet of my Christianity. If it is a question of yours, only God will answer you to your satisfaction. Good luck.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that any of my posts were offensive or derogatory. What was it that I said that offended you?

Regards

Read your post of Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:35 pm on page 24 and if you do not see anything that is detracting from the original character of your initial post then I mistook your original inquiry. I believe I mistook your post as an innocent inquiry into the question of eternal security in Jesus Christ. My mistake.

 

[mutzrein]

Solo

I'm mystified as to the nature of your mistake even. But nevertheless I can assure you my desire is to grow and see others grow in the knowledge of Christ. Whether you thought me to be one thing or another does not really matter. Surely each of us needs to be able to give an account of what we believe scripture is saying without being offended if someone elses interpretation differs. I would say it would be a foolish man who believes he has all the answers because at that point he becomes puffed up with his own importance, he stops learning and worst of all, the Holy Spirit who Jesus said would lead us into all truth is shut out.

Now I have in mind not to continue to 'reason together' on this issue with you any longer unless you specifically want me to. I certainly don't want anyone to think that what I say is in any way derogatory but I will make this quite clear. I have a passion for truth - and this passion is not of my own making. God has placed it there. So whenever I see a comment made by someone and I don't understand the premise on which they make it I will seek to clarify it. If error is exposed in my own understanding I will praise God for it and I would hope the same could be said for anyone else I reason with.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Yes I do understand. God's grace is a free gift to anyone who will accept it. God does not force His grace on anyone. He leaves it up to the individual. It's not that I have any great power, He gives me the choice.

So it is up to man to make the choice for his salvation?

Does this mean that after he choses "salvation" that he can "unchoose" and lose it?

Question - how can a man that is:
dead spiritually Eph. 2:1, Matt. 8:22 -
blinded II Cor. 4:3 -
unable to understand spiritual things I Cor. 2:14
not seeking God and has no understanding of God Rom. 3 -
unregenerate - Ti. 3:5
against God - Rom. 8

and a lot more....

How can this sinner "choose" God with a fallen nature that cannot choose God??? :o :o :o

A penny for your thoghts?

God bless 8-)

 

[duncdawg]

How can this sinner "choose" God with a fallen nature that cannot choose God??? :o :o :o

A penny for your thoghts?

God bless 8-)

I'll take the penny.....

First of all, how on earth could you say we can't CHOOSE God? ARe you saying God forces His salvation on us. Not even close....

The Bible clearly states that it is God's will that everyone come to salvation...

Does this occur... no...sadly enough.

Just because it is God's will, doesn't mean it will happen. He left us with the choice, giving us free will to do with our lives what we wish.

With that being said, He reveals truth to people, undeniable truth, that causes people to be convicted of their sins, and repent. The call Jesus Lord and are saved.

If this person, however is not discipled, and does not learn anything about God from that moment foward, and just knows about Him, this will not be good enough.

That person MUST be discipled so they can come to know the Lord. (2 Tim 2:2)

You don't meet someone for the first time, and call the your best friend. It is not how it works.

For example.... I know about our president, George W. Bush. I can tell you all about his policies, beliefs, and probably do a pretty good biography on him. But, do I know him? Not at all. If he saw me on the street, would he say, "Hey, duncdawg, hows it been?"? No.

Knowing about Him and knowing Him are two seperate things, my friend. Not every Christian knows that, but thats the reason for this forum, now isn't it?

That person that got convicted, may, from that point on, never be held accountable, never learn anything more about God, or the cross, or anything, and eventually backslide.

When he meets the Lord for judgement, will that be good enough?

Well, you make the call. :wink:

Thanks for the penny! :D

 

[Jay T]

[How can this sinner "choose" God with a fallen nature that cannot choose God??? :o :o :o

A penny for your thoghts?

God bless 8-)

So, you are saying that we should throw away all the Bible verses, that give the following impressions.......
Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart".
This just one Bible verse, of many !

 

[Solo]

Solo

I'm mystified as to the nature of your mistake even. But nevertheless I can assure you my desire is to grow and see others grow in the knowledge of Christ. Whether you thought me to be one thing or another does not really matter. Surely each of us needs to be able to give an account of what we believe scripture is saying without being offended if someone elses interpretation differs. I would say it would be a foolish man who believes he has all the answers because at that point he becomes puffed up with his own importance, he stops learning and worst of all, the Holy Spirit who Jesus said would lead us into all truth is shut out.

Now I have in mind not to continue to 'reason together' on this issue with you any longer unless you specifically want me to. I certainly don't want anyone to think that what I say is in any way derogatory but I will make this quite clear. I have a passion for truth - and this passion is not of my own making. God has placed it there. So whenever I see a comment made by someone and I don't understand the premise on which they make it I will seek to clarify it. If error is exposed in my own understanding I will praise God for it and I would hope the same could be said for anyone else I reason with.

Regards

mutzrein,
That is great that your thrust in life is to relentlessly seek God's truth over vain, finite human understanding. I have no doubt that in your search for truth, that a willingness to submit to God in all things will be achieved, and God will be able to convince you of his ability to seal His children with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. He will give you great joy as He assures you of your eternal security in His born again process in creating a new creature with eternal life, a joint heir with Jesus Christ. Don't let your corrupt, mortal flesh dissuade you as you grow closer to Him with the inward man throughout your life.

 

[Jay T]

Yes I do understand. God's grace is a free gift to anyone who will accept it. God does not force His grace on anyone. He leaves it up to the individual. It's not that I have any great power, He gives me the choice.

That, my friend, is what love is.

What ?
A voice of reason.....AMEN !

 

[AVBunyan]

Yes I do understand. God's grace is a free gift to anyone who will accept it. God does not force His grace on anyone. He leaves it up to the individual. It's not that I have any great power, He gives me the choice.

That, my friend, is what love is.

What ?
A voice of reason.....AMEN !

Well, from man's standpoint it sounds good but from God's standpoint it is all vanity.

This is man's attempt to justify himself - to give himself a pat on the back to show God how spiritual he is by being spiritual enough to choose God when others were not as spiritual to choose God. So he can stand before God and say, "See, Lord I was smart and spritual - I chose you and others did not - doesn't that count for something??? Aren't I special in your eyes because I chose you???"

Dead men cannot and will not choose God

 

[Jay T]

Dead men cannot and will not choose God

Well....We had better throw out all the Bible verses that have the ring as this one, then...... Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart".
Because what this Bible verse says, is not to someone who already knows God.

 

[AVBunyan]

Dead men cannot and will not choose God

Well....We had better throw out all the Bible verses that have the ring as this one, then...... Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart".
Because what this Bible verse says, is not to someone who already knows God.

Jay - my friend - I understand where you are coming from and can see why verses like this seem to make my position look silly - I agree... but......but....when you get to Paul regarding justification today...

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
The above verse says sinners are blinded...

2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
The above verse says that unless God takes the blinders off nothing happens.

Now Jay - I'm searching to try to reconcile your verses with those - all I can come up with is that your OT verses are dealing with the Jew as the backlsiding child that could seek and return to God back then - under a different set of rules as compared to today.

Today I see God working in the lives of sinners differently now that Israel, as a nation, has been put on the back burner until God resumes his dealings with them later on during the last half of the great tribulation.

Just trying to be honest - In regards to individual justification today - God deals differently with sinners today vs. how he dealt with Israel in the OT.

Also - tough pill to swallow - the Jer. reference could also have a future application when they will be seeking God in the latter part of the tribulation.

God bless 8-)

 

[JM]

The assumption of ability is a common mistake when viewing Scripture. Does God command man to do things they can't? Yes He does. (love the Lord your God with all your heart)