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OSAS....Not !

I said:
Son the requirements of the law were that if you sinned you needed to be sprinkled with blood to be cleansed. Jesus fulfilled those requirements by shedding his blood which put an end to the requirements of the old law. That is how he fulfilled the law.

Wavy said:
This made no sense to me whatsoever.

OK then if it makes no sense to you you had better be cleaning yourself of your sins with the blood of goats.

You also said:
I used to believe what you believe,
You do not know what I believe. I have not told you. I have only told you some of how I interpret some of the scripture.

Tell me how does it feel to have a perfect understanding of scripture. (sarcasm intended.) No one has it all right. That is an impossibility. But you would never know that by reading your posts.

Once again I will leave you to enjoy your trip. It will not be at my expense. Good night.
 
Windozer said:
OK then if it makes no sense to you you had better be cleaning yourself of your sins with the blood of goats.[/quotes]

No, I meant what you said, not what the scripture said.

You do not know what I believe. I have not told you. I have only told you some of how I interpret some of the scripture.

And from how you interpret it, I can tell what you believe. There is an "old law" and a "new law" and that there is a new "spiritual way" to conduct ourselves as opposed to the old, "law of moses" conventional (real) way.
 
Windozer; great post hey.

The Son of God sacrificed on the cross was an acceptable offering for man's sin for every generation on Earth. If you don't accept the blood from God's sacrifice then you don't accept the remission from sins.
 
Thanks Klee shay.

Klee shay said:
The Son of God sacrificed on the cross was an acceptable offering for man's sin for every generation on Earth. If you don't accept the blood from God's sacrifice then you don't accept the remission from sins.

That is correct, and it is the way I see it.
 
Servant_2000 said:
I'm going to quote the same passage from Paul for you -- Colossians 2:13-19, -- and then I will ask you some more questions. Are you still with me?

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. HE forgave us all our sins, having CANCELED THE WRITTEN CODE, WITH ITS REGULATIONS, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; HE TOOK IT AWAY, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
So, how do you balance what Jesus said..... Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
...with what you just quoted ?


******* Q U E S T I O N S *******


What do you think it means? How was "the written code" canceled? What did Paul mean by saying Jesus Christ nailed it to the cross?

Waiting for your answer,[/quote]Until one learns the difference between the Law of Moses, and the 10 commandments that Christ wrote out personally upon Mt. Sinai.....the New Testament writings of Paul are bound to be misunderstood.

AND...one of the reasons God placed a WARNING to those who try to take Paul's words out of context, with the rest of the Bible (2 Peter 3:15,16)
 
Jesus Christ came to save man 'from' their sins, right ?

Yet, the modern Christian now wants to believe that Jesus Christ 'saves' men...from their sins....so that they can keep right on committing sin...and THINK THAT THEY ARE HEAVENWARD BOUND ?!?

This is the essense of "Once Saved, Always Saved"....which I don't believe in the least.

I believe that when Jesus Christ saves a person 'from' their sins.....Jesus also gives them, the power, to 'go and sin no more', (John 5:14 & 8:11).

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 
Forgive me for coming in this far down such a long and (by the look of it) arduous track.

I just wanted to get consensus on something.

The term 'Once Save Always Saved' may mean different things to different people. The word 'saved' is often used to describe one who is born again.

Is this what the argument is about? That one who is born again cannot lose their born-again status. ie. they cannot lose everlasting life?

Thanks
 
mutzrein said:
Forgive me for coming in this far down such a long and (by the look of it) arduous track.

I just wanted to get consensus on something.

The term 'Once Save Always Saved' may mean different things to different people. The word 'saved' is often used to describe one who is born again.

Is this what the argument is about? That one who is born again cannot lose their born-again status. ie. they cannot lose everlasting life?

Thanks
Yes. When I was a young Christian some 22 years ago, I thought that one could lose their salvation. After I came to understand that salvation is not that which we earn or keep, but instead what God has earned and given to us as a free gift, I know that this salvation can not be lost. Many many scriptures point to the marvelous gift of eternal life being given to those that believe. Once one has been born of God, no one can become unborn.
 
Solo said:
mutzrein said:
Forgive me for coming in this far down such a long and (by the look of it) arduous track.

I just wanted to get consensus on something.

The term 'Once Save Always Saved' may mean different things to different people. The word 'saved' is often used to describe one who is born again.

Is this what the argument is about? That one who is born again cannot lose their born-again status. ie. they cannot lose everlasting life?

Thanks
Yes. When I was a young Christian some 22 years ago, I thought that one could lose their salvation. After I came to understand that salvation is not that which we earn or keep, but instead what God has earned and given to us as a free gift, I know that this salvation can not be lost. Many many scriptures point to the marvelous gift of eternal life being given to those that believe. Once one has been born of God, no one can become unborn.

Thanks Solo

OK more clarification for me please on a couple of points. Sorry to be pedantic.

What you’re saying then is that everyone who is born again will go to heaven?

I’m making a presumption here so forgive me if I am wrong. On the basis that they do go to heaven do you see these people being judged? If so what would be the terms of their judgement in your estimation?

Regards
 
We, as Christians, must be careful on how we present OSAS. Although there is much truth to it, since we are sinful by nature, we have the tendency to use this as a means of letting things slide into our Christian walk that shouldn't be there, simply because we've been to an altar and prayed a prayer.

The thought of OSAS also gives way to the thought that discipleship is not necessary, since we will be ok, anyways. This, however is a false inclination.

2 Timothy 2:2 - "You have heard me teach many things that have been confirmed by many reliable witnesses. Teach these great truths to trustworthy people who are able to pass them on to others."

Discipleship is an ESSENTIAL part of our Christian lives, for it is the way of Jesus, himself.

OSAS, although there is much scriptural evidence to back it up, needs to be preached with much caution.

The ironic thing is, I noticed that this is a very hot topic amongst all believers, especially on this forum (one of the longest ones!). Instead of fighting over who's interpretation of the Bible is more accurate (a pointless argument), we should be talking about how to seek and save the lost! Every 1.3 seconds, someone dies and goes to hell, without ever hearing the Gospel. Lets quit fighting amongst ourselves over pointless arguments like these, and pray for the nations!

I love you all!
 
mutzrein said:
Solo said:
mutzrein said:
Forgive me for coming in this far down such a long and (by the look of it) arduous track.

I just wanted to get consensus on something.

The term 'Once Save Always Saved' may mean different things to different people. The word 'saved' is often used to describe one who is born again.

Is this what the argument is about? That one who is born again cannot lose their born-again status. ie. they cannot lose everlasting life?

Thanks
Yes. When I was a young Christian some 22 years ago, I thought that one could lose their salvation. After I came to understand that salvation is not that which we earn or keep, but instead what God has earned and given to us as a free gift, I know that this salvation can not be lost. Many many scriptures point to the marvelous gift of eternal life being given to those that believe. Once one has been born of God, no one can become unborn.

Thanks Solo

OK more clarification for me please on a couple of points. Sorry to be pedantic.

What you’re saying then is that everyone who is born again will go to heaven?

I’m making a presumption here so forgive me if I am wrong. On the basis that they do go to heaven do you see these people being judged? If so what would be the terms of their judgement in your estimation?

Regards
Those born of God, born again will have eternal life. That which they built on the foundation of Jesus Christ that was done in the flesh will be burnt as wood, hay, and stubble, but that which was done in the spirit will remain as gold and precious stones. A believer will be judged for rewards not punishment.
 
Solo said:
Those born of God, born again will have eternal life. That which they built on the foundation of Jesus Christ that was done in the flesh will be burnt as wood, hay, and stubble, but that which was done in the spirit will remain as gold and precious stones. A believer will be judged for rewards not punishment.

It seems to me that you have taken a passage out of 1 Corinthians 3 as the basis for your response since it mentions ‘gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble’. Perhaps you would like to look at the verses under this:
1 Cor 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

On the basis that you say that we are only judged for reward what do you say this means?
 
mutzrein said:
Solo said:
Those born of God, born again will have eternal life. That which they built on the foundation of Jesus Christ that was done in the flesh will be burnt as wood, hay, and stubble, but that which was done in the spirit will remain as gold and precious stones. A believer will be judged for rewards not punishment.

It seems to me that you have taken a passage out of 1 Corinthians 3 as the basis for your response since it mentions ‘gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble’. Perhaps you would like to look at the verses under this:
1 Cor 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

On the basis that you say that we are only judged for reward what do you say this means?

Our sinful flesh is judged and will die in the grave or changed at Jesus' coming. The corrupt and mortal flesh will resurrect from the grave, and those that are alive at Jesus coming will be changed in a twinkling. The mortal will put on immortality, and the corrupt will put on incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

The new creature that was born again, born of God, the inward man is begotten of God and does not sin.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:9-10

Paul says that the inward man is in a war with the sinful flesh in Romans.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

The flesh is corrupt and mortal and receives the judgment of death, but thanks to Jesus Christ, our new man, the inward man is the new creature that will unite with the new body at Jesus coming. There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

And those who are born of God, born again, will not suffer the wrath of God.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
 
Jay T said:
Yet, the modern Christian now wants to believe that Jesus Christ 'saves' men...from their sins....so that they can keep right on committing sin...and THINK THAT THEY ARE HEAVENWARD BOUND ?!?
Jay - do you sin?

How often?

What do you do about your sins when you do sin?

Did Christ die for your sins?

Which ones?
 
Solo said:
And those who are born of God, born again, will not suffer the wrath of God.

If God were to destroy a person who defiles the temple of the Holy Spirit (by virtue of the fact that the Spirit of God dwells in them) would you not say that they would be suffering the wrath of God?

I adjure you, what does the scripture I quoted mean?
 
mutzrein said:
Solo said:
And those who are born of God, born again, will not suffer the wrath of God.

If God were to destroy a person who defiles the temple of the Holy Spirit (by virtue of the fact that the Spirit of God dwells in them) would you not say that they would be suffering the wrath of God?

I adjure you, what does the scripture I quoted mean?

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:1-5
 
Solo said:
At what point does a sinner quit being a sinner?
I believe that God is not some weak God, who is powerless to keep a person from committing sin, when it is HIS will that people STOP...from sinning.
I want to believe this Bible verse.....
Jude 1:24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy"

I also want to believe this one too..... 2 Corinthians 10:5 "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ"
I reject anyone suggestions....telling me I cannot believe these Bible verses.
 
Jay T said:
I reject anyone suggestions....telling me I cannot believe these Bible verses.
Sure - believe and strive but don't think you will meet them perfectly in this life and if one doesn't it won't change the their standing in Christ - if they are truly regenerated.

So many of you folks are trying to live by the law - whatever happened to:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
Solo said:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 3:11-17

Thanks Solo – you have taken two passages of scripture to support your point of view and since I have a different understanding of each of them (and because of constraints on my time) I would like to deal with them one at a time.

Your first highlighted passage is of course contained within a chapter in which Paul is addressing those who he says are worldly, carnal and mere babes – amongst whom is strife and divisions.

And Paul goes on to say that the foundation he has laid is Jesus Christ. “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.†So it is clear Paul is talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet as Paul explains, some say I follow Paul, others I follow Apollos etc. Paul berates them and calls them carnal because of their envying, strife & division.

Now it is the same today and forums such as this are one evidence of what Paul is talking about. Of course I am not saying that there is anything wrong with a forum but what it does is to give people voice in exactly the same way that Paul describes. Some say I follow this man (or church or particular theology) and others I follow that.

So on the foundation of the gospel, men will build theologies & doctrines – some sound and others perhaps not. Now each will be tried and ultimately exposed by the purging of God’s fire as to the truth or otherwise they proclaim - some to remain & some to be burned. Though the work of some will be burned, these men nevertheless were men born of God - but what they built on the foundation (of Jesus Christ), in some cases was not sound. Yes they suffered loss because much of what they believed and even taught others to believe to be true was actually tried and found to be wanting. And so the wood hay stubble of their work was consumed. Yet they themselves would be saved since they were born of God. And we praise God for his mercy and grace in allowing us to make mistakes but yet remain within the measure of faith that He has given us.

However the second part of this passage speaks of one who also having received the spirit of God, defiles himself. Of him it is said, God shall destroy. Now Paul is not saying that his work is tested by fire, but since he has defiled the temple of the Holy Spirit it is ‘him’ that is destroyed.
This is one who after starting with the Spirit (and perhaps initially having built on Christ) is attempting to live by their own righteousness thereby usurping the righteousness imputed by faith in Christ. Rather than a walk of faith (living by the Spirit that was given to him) he has defiled himself by saying that he can acheive a righteousness outside of faith.

Now this is the very situation that Paul wrote to the Galatians about. “Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Later on in Galatians Paul contrasts those who live by the spirit and those who don’t. “So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.†And remember he is addressing believers.

And afterwards Paul continues to exhort these ones not to rely on their own wisdom because to do so is foolishness, the very situation which initially leads man to think that what he builds is of God and then when he becomes puffed up by his own importance he regresses to a position of self righteousness. A condition that at the end of the day, God will not tolerate – and those who do persist in it will be destroyed. They will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
 
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