OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[JLB]

JLB my old favored friend. I believe that you and I believe in the security of the Believer in Christ Jesus, and as such will never loose what God the Father guarantees thru the sealing of the Holy Spirit and Galatians 2:20....

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

The verse that you quoted in referring to a lost individual who lives by the flesh and not by faith in Christ Jesus. I don't think that you're a fan of loosing one's Salvation, so don't even try.

Love You
Chopper

Yes, Paul said he was crucified with Christ.

However, the Galatians he was writing to, had been warned over and over, that if they chose to practice the works of the flesh, then they would not inherit the kingdom of God.

• I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

Paul admonishes these Galatians to walk according to the desires of the Spirit, which you know very well a lost person can not do.

Paul is warning the Church at Galatia, about practicing the works of the flesh.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Since you've already noted that the condition for having eternal life is to believe, I have no idea why any of this is being brought up.

Because a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, no longer satisfies the required condition for eternal life.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Is someone who believes for a while, then longer believe, a believer? Of course not.

A believer is someone who believes.

Believers are promised eternal life.


You would have to provide a scripture that said those who are not believers are saved, for your doctrine to be true.



JLB

 

[Eugene]

Does the OSAS 'side believe in repenting over our natural life time or only at the time of Salvation ?

If I was Jewish, I was to repent from the way I thought inheriting eternal life was accomplished, as there was always something lacking.
Mar 10:17 . . . Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:21 . . . One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

It goes further than this, but simply put to the world we read in
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
In other words, you've got zero chance in getting to know me in what you're trusting in.
Act 16:31 . . . Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (in the same way?).

Are you going to repent of not keeping our Lord's commandments? Why do so if you continue breaking them.
Yeah, I go down the road speeding thinking I'm exhibiting my Christian walk, and only repeat that ten times a day because I drive with my Cruise Control and it goes over the speed limit by one MPH at times, so it ain't my fault; it's Yours God because You allowed me to have this thing. I know what Father, I'll just give this to the poor and follow You huh? REPENT!!!

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Lord, You know that I love you . . (Huh?) Oh, but I hear I only have to continue believing regardless of my refusing to obey you; You know how utterly weak I am.
But reba, daughter of a preacher man, lovest thou me more than these others? Feed God's sheep, never fail in your faith of believing regardless the situation, and quit making excuses for not loving me and continuing to sin. I sure pray that all these brethren here don't end up in the lake of fire because they couldn't hold out.

 

[ezra]

lol this reminds me of a conversation i had with a nurse at the doctors office.. not been in Church in a while her and her husband was having problems. thinking about trying a church i had mentioned.. her reply i thought about trying that Church.. but they don,t believe like i do . she believes osas and they don,t... it never ends i told her to go she might like it. if every message is if you do this and this you will lose your salvation then leave... you folks can go on another 12 pages and the issue will never be settled . we can discuss osas vs onas but not any thing about doctrine that is contrary to what the Bible says like purgatory . some things i will never understand

 

[FreeGrace]

Salvation can't be lost. It's simply believed in from Christ, or denied by a person.

Eternal life is the same. Those receiving it have it, those not receiving it do not have it.

And those receiving it SHALL NEVER PERISH.

So, why do some continue to claim that a saved person (one having received eternal life) can perish, then?

Jesus said of those He gives eternal life, they will never perish. John 10:28

Real clear.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I actually said:
"I believe (I won't speak for anyone else who claims OSAS) that salvation is obtained the MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31).

And from that MOMENT, since we also know it is Christ who gives eternal life when one believes (John 5:24), we know that those who have received eternal life from Him WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

I also believe that repenting is an on-going issue, but NOT to maintain one's salvation. Rather, to restore fellowship with Him."

One is forced to conclude from your post that Acts 16:31, John 5:24 and John 10:28 aren't Scripture in your opinion.

Why is that? But it does help me understand the reason one would believe that salvation can be lost, by not accepting these 3 verses as Scripture.

Please write out the scripture with it's contents, for all to examine and discuss.

JLB

The verses are ALL there for ANYONE to examine and discuss. Just place your computer's cursor over each verse citation, and bingo! There is the verse.

Now, if there is any interest in really discussing any of these verses, please explain WHY none of them speak of eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you want to make a relevant point, then please do so from the language and words of scripture, so we can discuss what the scripture says, as nobody wants to hear another opinion.

Let's discuss what Christ says.
JLB

This is what I actually said:
"I believe (I won't speak for anyone else who claims OSAS) that salvation is obtained the MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31).

And from that MOMENT, since we also know it is Christ who gives eternal life when one believes (John 5:24), we know that those who have received eternal life from Him WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

I also believe that repenting is an on-going issue, but NOT to maintain one's salvation. Rather, to restore fellowship with Him."

One is forced to conclude from your post that Acts 16:31, John 5:24 and John 10:28 aren't Scripture in your opinion.

Why is that? But it does help me understand the reason one would believe that salvation can be lost, by not accepting these 3 verses as Scripture.

Now, just move your cursor over each verse to see what each verse says. And then please proceed with an explanation of WHY none of these verses speak of eternal security.

iow, explain what they ARE teaching.

 

[FreeGrace]

Because a person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, no longer satisfies the required condition for eternal life.

This is false. There is NO verse that speaks of the "requirement" for continuing to believe in order to continue to have eternal life.

So, according to forum TOS, please provide any verse that says what is being claimed.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Very clearly, there is nothing here about losing salvation if one ceases to believe. So, this isn't such a verse.

So, what verse says what is being claimed.

Believe = Saved

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

let's unpack this.

When Jesus said in John 10:28, "I give them eternal life", does He ever give eternal life to unsaved people? yes or no.

Of course not. That doesn't make sense. So we know that those He gives eternal life are saved, right? Of course.

The very next phrase is: "and they shall never perish". So, what does He mean?

It's very clear what He means. He means every saved person WILL NEVER PERISH. That's exactly what He means.

So your analysis of Luke 8:13 is unfounded and unbiblical, given what Jesus says about saved people.

Is someone who believes for a while, then longer believe, a believer? Of course not.

irrelevant, which has been pointed out multiple times.

A believer is someone who believes.

A believer is someone who has been given the gift of eternal life, according to Jesus: John 5:24 and 10:28.

Believers are promised eternal life.

ALL saved people are GIVEN eternal life, according to Jesus in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Those who believe that a saved person can perish is refuted by our Lord and Savior Himself.

You would have to provide a scripture that said those who are not believers are saved, for your doctrine to be true.

Is this a denial of what Jesus said about saved people in John 10:28?? Those He gives eternal life are saved people, so what He says about them refutes your claim about them.

 

[JLB]

This is what I actually said:
"I believe (I won't speak for anyone else who claims OSAS) that salvation is obtained the MOMENT one believes in Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31).

And from that MOMENT, since we also know it is Christ who gives eternal life when one believes (John 5:24), we know that those who have received eternal life from Him WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

I also believe that repenting is an on-going issue, but NOT to maintain one's salvation. Rather, to restore fellowship with Him."

One is forced to conclude from your post that Acts 16:31, John 5:24 and John 10:28 aren't Scripture in your opinion.

Why is that? But it does help me understand the reason one would believe that salvation can be lost, by not accepting these 3 verses as Scripture.

Now, just move your cursor over each verse to see what each verse says. And then please proceed with an explanation of WHY none of these verses speak of eternal security.

iow, explain what they ARE teaching.

Nothing you have said, addresses the point of truth I made, which is:

• Believe is the condition for receiving eternal life.

The promise we have for believing is eternal life.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are no longer believers.

The unbelieving are promised eternal death.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

• Believers are promised eternal life.
• The unbelieving are promised eternal death.

Both promises are true and from the Lord who can not lie.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

The question remains unanswered by all who promote OSAS.

Does a person who believes for a while, then no longer believe, still believe.

The answer is plainly, and without dispute: NO!


Until you show me a scripture that teaches us that those who no longer believe, still satisfy the condition for eternal life, which is to believe, then you are just promoting a doctrine that is not found in the scriptures.





JLB

 

[reba]

If I was Jewish, I was to repent from the way I thought inheriting eternal life was accomplished, as there was always something lacking.
Mar 10:17 . . . Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:21 . . . One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

It goes further than this, but simply put to the world we read in
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
In other words, you've got zero chance in getting to know me in what you're trusting in.
Act 16:31 . . . Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (in the same way?).

Are you going to repent of not keeping our Lord's commandments? Why do so if you continue breaking them.
Yeah, I go down the road speeding thinking I'm exhibiting my Christian walk, and only repeat that ten times a day because I drive with my Cruise Control and it goes over the speed limit by one MPH at times, so it ain't my fault; it's Yours God because You allowed me to have this thing. I know what Father, I'll just give this to the poor and follow You huh? REPENT!!!

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Lord, You know that I love you . . (Huh?) Oh, but I hear I only have to continue believing regardless of my refusing to obey you; You know how utterly weak I am.
But reba, daughter of a preacher man, lovest thou me more than these others? Feed God's sheep, never fail in your faith of believing regardless the situation, and quit making excuses for not loving me and continuing to sin. I sure pray that all these brethren here don't end up in the lake of fire because they couldn't hold out.

kinda lost me Eugene , do you believe you ,need, should, etc repent ....

 

[reba]

So, according to forum TOS, please provide any verse that says what is being claimed.

by your own words above show a verse that says once saved always saved.... .. we both know there is not one..

 

[Nathan]

So, why do some continue to claim that a saved person (one having received eternal life) can perish, then?

Because they stop receiving the eternal life that only God has. If you walk away from Christ you leave His life.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Nothing you have said, addresses the point of truth I made, which is:

Believe is the condition for receiving eternal life.

Let's not disingenuous, or intellectually dishonest about this. Of course I believe that believing is the condition for receiving eternal life. That is exactly what Jesus said in many verses, which I've posted.

The promise we have for believing is eternal life.

Of course it is.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are no longer believers.

Doesn't matter, because of what Jesus PROMISED in John 10:28, which no one has YET explained as to what Jesus was teaching, if not eternal security.

In John 10:28 Jesus says that saved people shall never perish. Is it possible that Jesus ever gave eternal life to unsaved people? Of course not. So when He said "I give THEM eternal life", who was He referring to; saved or unsaved people? Since your style is not to answer these simple questions, I'll give the answer: only to saved people.

So His statement means "I give saved people eternal life". Then He says, "and they SHALL NEVER PERISH". Who will never perish? Oh yeah, saved people.

Therefore, once saved, WILL NEVER PERISH. Or will ALWAYS BE SAVED.

The unbelieving are promised eternal death.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13[/QUOTE]
Where is the claim about unbelieving promised eternal death in this verse? I don't see it.

So, why quote a verse that has NOTHING to do with your claim?

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

Not what our Lord and Savior said about saved people. When He gives eternal life, He also says, "and they WILL NEVER PERISH.

Why would anyone doubt what He says about saved people?

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

Yet, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, said that they will never perish because He has given them eternal life.

That's what your position cannot deal with. Which is why it doesn't.

Everyone that receives eternal life from Jesus will never perish. But your position is just the opposite; that some will perish.

Both promises are true and from the Lord who can not lie.

Jesus said that he gives eternal life and those He gives it to will never perish. Since this statement of yours acknowledges that the Lord cannot lie, why believe the fallacy that a saved person can perish then?

 

[Chopper]

Yes, Paul said he was crucified with Christ.

However, the Galatians he was writing to, had been warned over and over, that if they chose to practice the works of the flesh, then they would not inherit the kingdom of God.

• I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

Paul admonishes these Galatians to walk according to the desires of the Spirit, which you know very well a lost person can not do.

Paul is warning the Church at Galatia, about practicing the works of the flesh.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

I agree with you. Those who practice those sinful deeds will not inherit eternal life. I don't understand why you are arguing with FreeGrace? You both believe in the eternal security of the believer, right?

 

[FreeGrace]

by your own words above show a verse that says once saved always saved.... .. we both know there is not one..

Here is John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Would you agree that the "them" that He gives eternal life to are saved people, or unsaved people?

If you agree that they are saved, then what He is saying is that saved people will never perish. From the moment He gives them eternal life.

Now, is there a verse that indicates that eternal life is given, not at the moment of faith in Christ, but sometime after that? I'm not aware of any. In fact, John 5:24 says those who believe HAVE eternal life.

"“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

So we can confidently conclude that He gives the gift of eternal life WHEN one believes. And from that MOMENT of WHEN one believes, He says they shall never perish.

How is that NOT eternal security?

Therefore, WHEN a person believes, and is saved, they shall never perish. All from John 10:28

 

[Cygnus]

Because they stop receiving the eternal life that only God has. If you walk away from Christ you leave His life.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How can one stop receiving eternal life? As pointed out numerous times....eternal means eternal.
If you're givin eternal life....you have that life eternally.

 

[FreeGrace]

Because they stop receiving the eternal life that only God has. If you walk away from Christ you leave His life.

This has NEVER been shown from Scripture. It remains just an opinion, and an erroneous one at that.

1Jo 5:12
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How does this verse support your assumption that one who has eternal life can lose it? It doesn't.

In fact, John 10:28 totally refutes your assumption. Because Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Yet, your assumption is that one who has received eternal life can perish.

Your assumption is directly against what our Lord and Savior promises.

Not a position I would EVER want to be in.

 

[FreeGrace]

How can one stop receiving eternal life? As pointed out numerous times....eternal means eternal.
If you're givin eternal life....you have that life eternally.

John 5:24 tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe. His assumptions have no basis in Scripture.

 

[Nathan]

How can one stop receiving eternal life? As pointed out numerous times....eternal means eternal.
If you're givin eternal life....you have that life eternally.

Actually, people completely overlook the fact that God can only 'have' eternal life. Eternal, by its very definition, means not having a beginning or an end. So a person cannot 'begin' to have eternal life - they can simply partake of that eternal life. We "have" eternal life only because Christ lives in us through faith. Leave the faith, leave eternal life.

Satan fooled Adam and Eve with this. Its best we not get ahead of ourselves and realize we are simply dust - only God is eternal.

 

[Cygnus]

John 5:24 tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe. His assumptions have no basis in Scripture.

Eternal does mean eternal. The bible doesn't say the potential for eternal life.