OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[FreeGrace]

You can't leave salvation.
You don't even belong to yourself. You belong to Jesus. A price was paid for to obtain you. You just don't up and leave salvation.

Exactly!! The Bible says we are God's possession! Eph 1:14

And what did Jesus said about those who are in His hand? No one, meaning no person, can remove them from His hand. John 10:29

Then Jesus makes a very telling statement in Jn 10:29 - My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

What does that mean? It means one who is in His hand MUST BE greater than God in order to remove themself from His hand. That's what it means.

Ain't gonna happen.

 

[FreeGrace]

It would seem then that the argument is not about being able to lose salvation but rather when does one receive it?

This is settled by Jesus in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

iow, WHEN one believes, they possess eternal life.

On this note, when is one saved?

Same time as when they receive eternal life. Jn 5:24

 

[Gregg T]

Nothing you have said, addresses the point of truth I made, which is:

• Believe is the condition for receiving eternal life.

The promise we have for believing is eternal life.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are no longer believers.

The unbelieving are promised eternal death.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

• Believers are promised eternal life.
• The unbelieving are promised eternal death.

Both promises are true and from the Lord who can not lie.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

The question remains unanswered by all who promote OSAS.

Does a person who believes for a while, then no longer believe, still believe.

The answer is plainly, and without dispute: NO!


Until you show me a scripture that teaches us that those who no longer believe, still satisfy the condition for eternal life, which is to believe, then you are just promoting a doctrine that is not found in the scriptures.





JLB

In your opinion, can a person vascilate between believing and then not beliving and then believing again and then not believing again, so as to have eternal life and then not have eternal life and then have eternal life again and then not have eternal life again?

 

[Gregg T]

I cannot undertand why that isn't clear to everyone. Having been given eternal life, Jesus says they will never perish. Meaning eternal life is eternal. It cannot die, and the one who has received it cannot perish.

Yet, some continue to disagree with what Jesus promised in John 10:28.

I've asked what Jesus was promising and teaching in that verse, but no explanation has been forthcoming.

Some seem to know what it doesn't teach, but don't seem to know what it teaches. Interesting.

How can one know what is not being taught, if they don't know what is being taught?

Questions, questions, questions. lol

Maybe the words "eternal" and "never perish" were written with invisible ink.

 

[Cygnus]

Can a person vascilate between believing and then not beliving and then believing again and then not believing again, so as to have eternal life and then not have eternal life and then have eternal life again and then not have eternal life again?

Interesting question.....

 

[WIP]

A few have responded to my question and I appreciate it. One argument I see quite a bit is that when someone walks away from Jesus, it is said they weren't really saved to begin with and this leads to another question. Are you all saying that we don't know what or when we believe?

 

[Nathan]

You can't just up and leave salvation if you already have it.

What I do ask is that you apply proper scripture when presenting your case.

I am providing clear passages, while you are not. It is clear that there are those who through desire for sin choose to leave Christ. Where is your proof that they cannot, and if they do that they take salvation with them?

 

[Nathan]

In your opinion, can a person vascilate between believing and then not beliving and then believing again and then not believing again, so as to have eternal life and then not have eternal life and then have eternal life again and then not have eternal life again?

No

 

[Cygnus]

I am providing clear passages, while you are not. It is clear that there are those who through desire for sin choose to leave Christ. Where is your proof that they cannot, and if they do that they take salvation with them?

My proof is that loss of salvation isn't in the bible.

 

[Nathan]

I am not going to respond to all of your different posts. I have the strong feeling you are trying to overwhelm me by flooding so many posts that say the same thing over and over. If you want to have an intelligible conversation about this, then I am all ears.

Which text says we can leave eternal life? Without any text, it's just an opinion. Please support claims with Scripture.

I have provided support. This sentence you post over and over means nothing to me at this point. If you can post this, then I can do the same. Post support that claims you cannot leave eternal life - because without any text, your claim is just an opinion.

Salvation isn't in a "location", as insinuated. And please, please provide evidence from Scripture that one can leave salvation, since this idea continues to be an opinion unless evidence is provided.

It was not an insinuation, your falsely accusing me. I only know of one being that does that to believers.

Salvation is in God, and God alone. If you leave God, you leave salvation. A person cannot take salvation with them if they choose to turn their backs on God. If you want to validate your opinion of being able to be like God and take salvation with you if you choose to leave Him, then you will have to provide some evidence of such a opinionated claim - otherwise it has no merit.

 

[Gregg T]

No

Would that mean then in your opinion, if a believer turns away from Christ, then the matter is sealed for eternity - he is lost with no hope of being saved again?

 

[ezra]

In your opinion, can a person vascilate between believing and then not beliving and then believing again and then not believing again, so as to have eternal life and then not have eternal life and then have eternal life again and then not have eternal life again?

they was never saved to begin with
1 John 2:19King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. you dont jump in and out . once again our salvation is secure in Christ . Grace is not the opportunity to continue in sin. when saved we become a new creation in Christ . 1 John 2 [Full Chapter]
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. ..1 John 3: .20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.. if we would focus more on our walk and our relationship we would be better off
Matthew 6:33
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.:amen

 

[Nathan]

My proof is that loss of salvation isn't in the bible.

That is not proof. That is an opinion. I have never minded conversing with people about this topic who actually want to discuss it, but it seems that some just want to put down others and never truly talk about the topic.

Salvation is from God, it is with God, and cannot be had apart from God. Therefore, if a person was to turn away from God - they turn away from Salvation. Do you believe people can turn away from God?

 

[Nathan]

Would that mean then in your opinion, if a believer turns away from Christ, then the matter is sealed for eternity - he is lost with no hope of being saved again?

Yes. If a person who has come to the knowledge of Jesus being the Son of God, dying in place for their sin, setting them free from sin - then they choose to deny His Salvation and be enslaved to sin, they will not return to Christ.

Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

I wish it were not impossible, but I understand why it is. I assure you, the person who reaches this point in their life DOES NOT CARE about being in Christ. Its not that God will not let them repent - it is because they will not want to repent. This is the DANGER of what sin will do. VERY serious stuff.

 

[JLB]

In your opinion, can a person vascilate between believing and then not beliving and then believing again and then not believing again, so as to have eternal life and then not have eternal life and then have eternal life again and then not have eternal life again?

No, the context, from the scripture I gave, concerns a person who under persecution, have chosen to depart from Jesus Christ, and return to the religion of the unbelieving Jews, which is Judaism, and the law of Moses.

This reference is expounded upon in the book of Hebrews.

It could apply today, just as easily to Islam, whereby a person under persecution, and the threat of death, would renounce Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and turn to Islam, and confess Allah as Lord.

Hopefully now, you can understand what Jesus was teaching here in Luke 8:13.

I will post the scripture from Matthew, for more clarification.

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

• but endures only for a while.

Jesus also warned us about those during the great tribulation, that betray one another [Him]. and said these words for all to heed.

• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14

Do you understand what this phrase means: And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

"as a witness" refers to being martyred for Christ, while preaching the Gospel.


Foxes book of Martyrs is filled with people who understood this principal of enduring to the end, and being saved.

John said it this way, in revelation, of this time which is soon approaching.


And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Revelation 12:11


JLB

 

[Nathan]

There should be a CLEAR distinction made between those who are weak in the faith, and those who flat out deny it. To be weak in the faith is one thing, and those are the ones who you find going back and forth between doubt and strong encouragement. This weakness can be overcome, and it is why we should encourage one another in the faith, so that the one who is weak will not become hardened by sin.

The one who becomes hardened by sin is the one who has the potential to deny the faith, and walk away from the only God of Salvation. It should be our desire to reach these people before this happens, to show them the error of their way, to bring them back to the fold so they will not be devoured by the wolves. This is what good shepherds do - what true servants desire for their Master.

 

[Gregg T]

Yes. If a person who has come to the knowledge of Jesus being the Son of God, dying in place for their sin, setting them free from sin - then they choose to deny His Salvation and be enslaved to sin, they will not return to Christ.

Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

I wish it were not impossible, but I understand why it is. I assure you, the person who reaches this point in their life DOES NOT CARE about being in Christ. Its not that God will not let them repent - it is because they will not want to repent. This is the DANGER of what sin will do. VERY serious stuff.

And then you must believe that it is you, your continual believing that keeps you saved, that your continual believing has power over that kind of sin.

Or might you think that Jesus believes for you?

 

[Nathan]

And then you must believe that it is you, your continual believing that keeps you saved, that your continual believing has power over that kind of sin.

Or might you think that Jesus believes for you?

No, I do NOT believe it is my continual believing that keeps me saved. Only a foolish person would believe that.

God saved me in Christ. Its a DONE DEAL. I believe this. It was NOT based on my belief. God saved every one of us in Christ - you either believe it or you deny it. I choose to believe it.

God forbid, if I were to choose to deny His salvation and go back to a life of sin - then, and only then would I be denied by Him before the Father.

Again, I do not keep myself saved - God already saved me. There is nothing I do that keeps me saved or makes me more saved.

 

[Gregg T]

No, I do NOT believe it is my continual believing that keeps me saved. Only a foolish person would believe that.

God saved me in Christ. Its a DONE DEAL. I believe this. It was NOT based on my belief. God saved every one of us in Christ - you either believe it or you deny it. I choose to believe it.

God forbid, if I were to choose to deny His salvation and go back to a life of sin - then, and only then would I be denied by Him before the Father.

Again, I do not keep myself saved - God already saved me. There is nothing I do that keeps me saved or makes me more saved.

Then if it is God doing the keeping, that He is the One keeping you saved, how could you by your doing ever become not saved while God is keeping you?

 

[Gregg T]

No, the context, from the scripture I gave, concerns a person who under persecution, have chosen to depart from Jesus Christ, and return to the religion of the unbelieving Jews, which is Judaism, and the law of Moses.

This reference is expounded upon in the book of Hebrews.

It could apply today, just as easily to Islam, whereby a person under persecution, and the threat of death, would renounce Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and turn to Islam, and confess Allah as Lord.

Hopefully now, you can understand what Jesus was teaching here in Luke 8:13.

I will post the scripture from Matthew, for more clarification.

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

• but endures only for a while.

Jesus also warned us about those during the great tribulation, that betray one another [Him]. and said these words for all to heed.

• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14

Do you understand what this phrase means: And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

"as a witness" refers to being martyred for Christ, while preaching the Gospel.


Foxes book of Martyrs is filled with people who understood this principal of enduring to the end, and being saved.

John said it this way, in revelation, of this time which is soon approaching.


And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Revelation 12:11


JLB

Great Scriptures that you posted.