OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[JLB]

I asked this:
"Is telling those believing in Christ that they may perish a stumbling block or not?"

My question was not answered. None of the verses above address losing salvation. In fact, since Jesus promises those He gives eternal life that they will never perish, to teach that one can lose salvation goes directly against what Jesus said to recipients of eternal life.

I answered your post. Because maybe, I wasn't clear enough, I will expound a little.



Speaking the truth in love, turning those who wander from the truth back, will save their eternal soul from death.

In reference to James 5:19-20, speaking the truth in love, by warning a brother who has turned from the truth, that their eternal soul will be lost, if they don't turn back, which means repent, is certainly not putting a stumbling block in front of them, showing them the love of God, by "snatching them from the fire", so they won't be lost. This is the way of Love. Just as it would be to preach the Gospel to someone who had never believed.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

On the other hand, deceiving God's people, by telling them it's impossible for them to suffer God's wrath of eternal damnation, no matter how sinful, or immoral they live, is definitely putting a stumbling block in front of them.

• Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7



JLB

 

[JLB]

this is about as good as the old saturday morning cartoons .. osas vs osnas it never ends . we can be secure in our salvation does that mean we can stay in sin and be saved?/???? NO "Romans" 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, { even so we also should walk in newness of life.} how many will honestly say that we walk in the newness of life. all the time? how many Fail God
Luke 6:46 But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

does this disqualify one from going to heaven ? apostle paul wrote
Colossians 3:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. this has nothing to do with being a liar ..but rather put off the old man and put on the new man ? what my point is put forth a every day effort ..before i hear or read a i do... have you got angry today? had a bad thought entertained a fleshly moment ?

Romans 5:19-21New King James Version (NKJV)
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

my point is yes we can be eternally secure in Christ But we can not live in sin like our old nature was before salvation? might i add many who do not hold to eternal security . live like hell but yet claim to be saved ? i am not taking either side what i am saying is live our life for Christ the best we can. we do wrong we follow 1 john 1:9 confess and repent .. Jesus warned us
Luke 13:2-4New King James Version (NKJV)
2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? we all at one time or another either gamble or ride Grace as a crutch sometimes as a excuse :amen2 you can be honest

Well said Ezra!





JLB

 

[MarkT]

Did Jesus say that those He gives eternal life will never perish, or not? Yes, He did.

Will any of God's own possession (Eph 1:14) "get away with" a life of sin, or not? No, they will not get away with it. They will face God's mighty hand of discipline. And God knows better than all of us how to discipline/punish His children.

There are many examples of believers who rebelled, and ended their lives poorly:
King Saul
Simon the sorcerer
incestuous man in 1 Cor 5
Ananias and Saphira
Solomon

He gives his followers eternal life. His followers are those who follow his instruction and keep his commandments.

 

[FreeGrace]

I answered your post. Because maybe, I wasn't clear enough, I will expound a little.

Speaking the truth in love, turning those who wander from the truth back, will save their eternal soul from death.

Excuse me, but the word "eternal" isn't found in the Bible, either in any English translations or in the original Greek manuscripts.

The Greek word is "psuche", which was used to refer to the whole person. The Greeks used that word the way we use the word "person".

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death.

This has already been explained. It's about helping a fellow believer avoid God's discipline which can include physical death.

On the other hand, deceiving God's people, by telling them it's impossible for them to suffer God's wrath of eternal damnation, no matter how sinful, or immoral they live, is definitely putting a stumbling block in front of them.

So, it's a stumbling block to teach what Jesus taught???? How does that work???

Jesus said that His sheep will never perish in Jn 10:28. How is that a stumbling block to believers? I do not understand.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Were Jesus' words about never perishing on the basis of being given eternal life a deception with empty words????? :shock

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7
JLB

Please notice that v.5 speaks of having no inheritance IN THE KINGDOM. It does NOT say "will not enter the kingdom". This passage, along with the 2 other parallel passages in 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5, speak of loss of reward.

 

[FreeGrace]

He gives his followers eternal life. His followers are those who follow his instruction and keep his commandments.

So believing has no part in receiving eternal life???

How do you reconcile John 5:24 where Jesus said those who believe HAVE eternal life? That would obviously indicate that WHEN one first believes is WHEN they HAVE eternal life. Your claim is different that what Jesus said.

The only way one could receive eternal life according to your statement is at the end of one's life. Which makes Jesus' promise rather unnecessary. And conflicts with what He said in John 5:24.

 

[JLB]

He gives his followers eternal life. His followers are those who follow his instruction and keep his commandments.

 

[JLB]

So believing has no part in receiving eternal life???

Of course it does, as well as obeying, and being committed, and trusting.

If God tells me I will win the lottery, and to go and buy 1 ticket, and I rejoice and am thankful, but rather I stay at home and don't by a lottery ticket, do I believe Him?


JLB

 

[WIP]

No. I do not run the race to be saved, I run the race because I am saved.

 

[WIP]

Excuse me, but the word "eternal" isn't found in the Bible, either in any English translations or in the original Greek manuscripts.

I just did a quick search for the word "eternal" in the NKJV and got 58 results.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"So believing has no part in receiving eternal life???"

Of course it does, as well as obeying, and being committed, and trusting.

OK. Trusting and believing are synonymous. So, receiving eternal life requires, in addition to believing/trusting,
1. obeying
2. being committed

Please provide the texts that indicate that eternal life is received on the basis of obeying. And, how much obeying? How would one quantify this?

Please define from Scripture what it means to "be committed" and which texts indicate that eternal life is received on the basis of being committed.

If God tells me I will win the lottery, and to go and buy 1 ticket, and I rejoice and am thankful, but rather I stay at home and don't by a lottery ticket, do I believe Him?

Why would you "rejoice and be thankful" if you stay home and don't buy a ticket? That isn't compatible.

But, more importantly, how does this relate in any way to receiving eternal life? There are at least 10 verses that directly relate believing for eternal life.

This example would reflect a non-believer, one who never believed in Him. It has no relevance to one who has believed and has been given eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I just did a quick search for the word "eternal" in the NKJV and got 58 results.

My bad. I meant to say the word 'eternal' isn't in James 5:19.

This is what another poster said that verse said:
"Speaking the truth in love, turning those who wander from the truth back, will save their eternal soul from death."

This is what the Bible says:
James 5:20 - remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. NIV

Other translations have "save his soul from death".

let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

But the word 'eternal' isn't found in the original.

In fact, I couldn't find any translation that had the words "eternal soul" in them.

 

[Cygnus]

Please provide the texts that indicate that eternal life is received on the basis of obeying. And, how much obeying? How would one quantify this?

Please define from Scripture what it means to "be committed" and which texts indicate that eternal life is received on the basis of being committed.

I asked a very similar question here.

How much obeying is required? if it's 100%...I'm out.
How committed does one have to be? 10% 50% 100%

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked a very similar question here.

How much obeying is required? if it's 100%...I'm out.

If true, we'd ALL be out.

How committed does one have to be? 10% 50% 100%

All of this is unquantifiable. And Scripture never addresses this stuff.

What Scripture does address is that eternal life is received WHEN one initially believes (Jn 5:24) and those recipients will never perish (Jn 10:28).

That IS quantifiable.

 

[JLB]

I asked this:
"So believing has no part in receiving eternal life???"
OK. Trusting and believing are synonymous. So, receiving eternal life requires, in addition to believing/trusting,
1. obeying
2. being committed

Please provide the texts that indicate that eternal life is received on the basis of obeying. And, how much obeying? How would one quantify this?

Please define from Scripture what it means to "be committed" and which texts indicate that eternal life is received on the basis of being committed.

Believe is the condition for eternal life.

Believe means trust, obey, commit, acknowledge to be true.


You will have to explain how the condition for eternal life, "believe", is no longer required, in which eternal life becomes "unconditional".

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore?


If a person trusts in Jesus Christ, for salvation, then later decides not to trust in Him anymore, because they were threatened with violence and death, and they go back to trusting in the law of Moses and Judaism, for their salvation, doing the works of the law, then they no longer trust in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice He made on the cross for the salvation.

The condition of believing is no longer being met, therefore they have departed from Christ, the only source of salvation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Why would you "rejoice and be thankful" if you stay home and don't buy a ticket? That isn't compatible.

Because you heard God tell you that you were going to win the lottery.

If God told you that you would win the lottery, would you rejoice and be thankful?

Obviously if God told you, that you would win the lottery, to go and buy a ticket, you have to wait for that specific day when the lottery numbers will be announced, even when that day arrives, it won't be until later that night, around 10:00 PM, so you would have plenty of time to rejoice and be thankful, before you actually received what God promised.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But, more importantly, how does this relate in any way to receiving eternal life? There are at least 10 verses that directly relate believing for eternal life.

Go ahead and post the verses and what they say, so we can discuss the condition, for receiving eternal life.

Like the person who was promised to win the lottery ticket, the condition was to buy a lottery ticket.



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

If true, we'd ALL be out.


All of this is unquantifiable. And Scripture never addresses this stuff.

What Scripture does address is that eternal life is received WHEN one initially believes (Jn 5:24) and those recipients will never perish (Jn 10:28).

That IS quantifiable.

If there was a value scripture would have presented a value.
In fact there probably is a value.....100% But, we can't do 100% so Jesus did it ALL for us.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe is the condition for eternal life.

The only one.

Believe means trust, obey, commit, acknowledge to be true.

Correct. No works involved.

You will have to explain how the condition for eternal life, "believe", is no longer required, in which eternal life becomes "unconditional".

Easy to explain. Jesus said "I give them eternal life, and they WILL NEVER PERISH." The condition for never perishing is simply to have been given eternal life.

If your insinuation of having to keep on believing in order to keep on having eternal life is refuted by Jesus' promise in John 10:28.

If your insinuation were correct, then Jesus would have said this:
"I give them eternal life, and IF they continue to believe, they will never perish."

But He didn't say that. Or anything close to that.

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore?

Great question! At the MOMENT one believes, because Jesus also said that those who believe HAVE eternal life, in John 5:24. That being true, then one HAS eternal life the MOMENT they first believe.

So, John 10:28 is a guarantee the MOMENT one believes that they will never perish, because they have been given eternal life.

So, to never perish is based on receiving the free gift of eternal life. No conditions beyond receiving eternal life. So said Jesus.



If a person trusts in Jesus Christ, for salvation, then later decides not to trust in Him anymore, because they were threatened with violence and death, and they go back to trusting in the law of Moses and Judaism, for their salvation, doing the works of the law, then they no longer trust in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice He made on the cross for the salvation.

The condition of believing is no longer being met, therefore they have departed from Christ, the only source of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Why would you "rejoice and be thankful" if you stay home and don't buy a ticket? That isn't compatible."

Because you heard God tell you that you were going to win the lottery.

Not compatible. If one truly believed what God said, they would also know they had to go out and buy a ticket.

If God told you that you would win the lottery, would you rejoice and be thankful?

I'd do more than that. I'd go out and buy a ticket, of course.

Obviously if God told you, that you would win the lottery, to go and buy a ticket, you have to wait for that specific day when the lottery numbers will be announced, even when that day arrives, it won't be until later that night, around 10:00 PM, so you would have plenty of time to rejoice and be thankful, before you actually received what God promised.
JLB

But none of this is applicable to receiving eternal life. So why present it? Jesus promised in Jn 5:24 that those who believe 'RIGHT NOW' (in the present) that they HAVE (right now, in the present) eternal life. Agree or disagree?

Then Jesus promised that those who have been given eternal life will never perish, in Jn 10:28. Agree or disagree?

 

[FreeGrace]

Go ahead and post the verses and what they say, so we can discuss the condition, for receiving eternal life.

It's always a pleasure to provide Scripture to that supports my beliefs.

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (pietho- disbelieves) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise (of eternal life) by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Like the person who was promised to win the lottery ticket, the condition was to buy a lottery ticket.
JLB

And unrelated to your example, the promise of eternal life is for believing in Jesus Christ for it.