OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[Nathan]

Huh? John 10:28 is very straightforward. He SAID "I GIVE them eternal life, AND they WILL NEVER PERISH.

I NEVER said anything about taking the gift. It's ALWAYS been about receiving the gift. Go ahead and check my posts. I've described them as recipients all the time. I've NEVER even suggested that anyone take the gift.

And, the result of receiving the gift, Jesus says they will never perish.


I don't see any relevance here.


Why should anyone think that eternal life is being "received" over a period of time, as your statement insinuates by "no longer receiving"?

That idea goes against what Jesus said in John 5:24 when He said those who believe HAVE eternal life. The moment they believe, they HAVE it. They are not "continuing to receive" eternal life.


I've never suggested that eternal life can be "taken somewhere else". That doesn't make sense to me.

Back to basics. Those who have been given eternal life will never perish. Agree or disagree?

If you receive a gift, and the gift is a one time thing, then you have taken the gift. If I gave you a basket of bread, and you received it from me, and then you were now in possession of it - you have taken it - I am no longer giving it.

On the other hand, if we simply see what Jesus says - and not add any of our own interpretation to it - we see He gives us eternal life. He has the basket of bread and gives us a loaf whenever we need it.

Continuing to receive eternal life from Christ does not go against His teaching, it actually makes it all come together without having to reason conflicting passages.

Those are the basics of the faith. He is life, only He owns it, He gives it freely to those in Him, apart from Him we have no life.

 

[Eugene]

.

What if one stops from turning from sin? This forum seem to be producing two views. One, if you stop turning from sin...disbelieving in Jesus...you lose your salvation. The other, once saved always saved.

Are you beginning to believe that it is fear of the lake of fire that will keep a man following Jesus? I hope not! When I was at the lowest point in my life it was Jesus in the fire of my own making with me. It was His great love that sustained me, set me back on my feet, and as the good Samaritan pulled me out of the ditch I found me, and showed Him as the rock of my salvation.

It is God keeping me, and has ensured me that He will never leave or forsake me in Heb 13:5, and in
Joh 6:37, Jesus says him that cometh to me (this was us) I will in no wise cast out. (What does Jesus say He will get rid of us for doing?)
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God (Good grief, am I reading this correctly? Is it really God, not us that is the one doing the work in us?), that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

To me, we can give our testimony, but to continue debating if we're doing it right fits the category of Rom 14:1. Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. Because all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, are we the better if we continue the wars of doctrine which separate us which God has received according to Rom 14:3? How about Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Gregg T]

Believe is the condition for eternal life.

Believe means trust, obey, commit, acknowledge to be true.


You will have to explain how the condition for eternal life, "believe", is no longer required, in which eternal life becomes "unconditional".

At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from being conditional on believing, to "unconditional", having no condition anymore?


If a person trusts in Jesus Christ, for salvation, then later decides not to trust in Him anymore, because they were threatened with violence and death, and they go back to trusting in the law of Moses and Judaism, for their salvation, doing the works of the law, then they no longer trust in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice He made on the cross for the salvation.

The condition of believing is no longer being met, therefore they have departed from Christ, the only source of salvation.

You are posing a false arguement. The OSAS position claims that believing is a condition for entering Christ, at which point he has the kind / type of life in Christ that is everlasting.

Something else, you pose the question:
'At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from . . .'

Here is a question:
'At what point in the life of a person does neverending life end?'

 

[Nathan]

Here is a question:
'At what point in the life of a person does neverending life end?'

I know the answer to that one.

Theologically speaking, the hopeful answer is never. However, at which point in the life of a person it can end is when they walk away from it - leave it.

We essentially have a never ending power source in each of our homes. We simply plug into it and the power is ours to use. We cannot say the power company failed to give us never ending power, or that the power company ended it, if we unplugged our stuff.

God plugs us into Christ, we have eternal life, He supplies it to us. If we choose to leave Him the life only ends in us - not Him.

 

[JLB]

You are posing a false arguement. The OSAS position claims that believing is a condition for entering Christ, at which point he has the kind / type of life in Christ that is everlasting.

Something else, you pose the question:
'At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from . . .'

Here is a question:
'At what point in the life of a person does neverending life end?'

A false argument?

I'm in a discussion with a person here who claims believing is no longer required, after a person is born again, nor is continuing to have faith.

That is their position.

He believes: a person who once believed, can depart from Christ, renouncing Him as Lord, and turning to serve Allah, confessing him as Lord, and still have the eternal life they once had, when they had faith in Christ.


So my question is not a false argument.


At what point in the life of a Christian, is the condition to believe, no longer required to have eternal life?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Guaranteed to those who believe, and are in Christ, and remain in Christ.

Eph 1:13,14 guarantees the inheritance of those having believed for the day of redemption, on the basis of being marked IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. He Himself is the guarantee of our inheritance.

The view that one who is in union with Christ can be somehow un-sealed simply erases the guarantee of our inheritance. The guarantee would mean nothing if anyone can be un-sealed.

And, to date, no one has shown anyone in Scripture being un-sealed. Just a lot of assumption.

Disconnected from Christ, there is no promise of eternal life.

Impossible. Unprovable. The guarantee of Eph 1:14 refutes such an idea.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

The condition is believe.

The tense is present. That means the moment WHEN one believes. For that person, that IS the present.

For example, today is July 11. If a person hears the gospel and places their faith in Christ for salvation at 12 noon, at THAT MOMENT, 12 noon, which is the present for that person, they are promised 3 things from John 5:24 -
1. they HAVE, as in possess, eternal life
2. they WILL NOT come into condemnation This is based on the MOMENT at 12 noon when one believed.
3. they HAVE PASSED from death (spiritual) to life (eternal).

And there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of un-doing any of these 3 things.

The claim that the present tense means that the action is on-going and the result only applies as long as the action continues is simply FALSE. The 3 things are promised from the MOMENT in present time that the person believes.

iow, because the person believed at 12 noon today, they STILL have eternal life, they STILL will not come into condemnation and they STILL have passed from death to life.

But since the claim is made that the present tense means results of a present tense action only exist as long as the action is on-going, please cite any legitimate Greek grammar text that says so.

If you have a scripture that teaches us those who do not believe, who are not in Christ, have eternal life, then please present it for us to examine.

JLB

That's never been the discussion. The issue is that all recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's what Jesus was clear about.

iow, once given eternal life, the recipient will never perish. John 10:28

The view that salvation can be lost and a saved person can perish is directly AGAINST the words of Jesus.

 

[JLB]

'At what point in the life of a person does neverending life end?'

Eternal life is knowing Jesus Christ, that is the definition.

• And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

A person who is "in Christ" has eternal life, as that is the only source of eternal life.

If a person who is "in Christ", becomes removed from, disconnected from, severed from Christ, then they no longer have the eternal life they once had, when they were in Christ.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Jesus teaches us that we must remain in Him, joined to Him, as a branch is joined to the vine and receives "life" from the vine, otherwise it will wither and is cast into the fire and burned.


If a branch is severed from the vine, and is cast into the fire and burned, does it still have the life it once had when connected to the vine?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"For salvation? No. For fruit production.

John 15:2,5
2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

Read what the actual scripture says:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

This is a farming metaphor. Not literal reality. Jesus was making the point about fruit production, just as the verse SAYS.

Those who are in Christ, but do not remain in Christ, are cast into the fire and burned.

Fire is used frequently in Scripture to describe God's anger and judgment, not just hell or the lake of fire. It's a big mistake to ALWAYS assume "fire" means hell.

1 Cor 3:15 reveals the error of defaulting to hell.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

Right. The issue is fruit production or not being used by God at all. Period.

The branch in Him, that does not produce fruit, is removed from Him.

Eternal life is only found in Christ Jesus.

Correct. And it's permanent. It's an irrevocable gift of God (Rom 11:29).

And it's given the MOMENT one believes (Jn 5:24).

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
Yep. A gift of God. And it's irrevocable. Rom 11:29

Bottom line: recipients of eternal life will NEVER perish.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jn 10:28

Jesus said:

"I give believers/My sheep eternal life and they shall never perish." John 10:28

v.28 tells to whom Jesus gives.

v.28 tells us WHAT Jesus gives.

v.28 tells us the RESULT of what Jesus GIVES to WHOM.

Jesus gives to His sheep. These are believers.

Jesus gives eternal life to believers, who are recipients of eternal life.

Recipients of eternal life will never perish.

This isn't even close to arguable. Jesus spoke in plain language here. No metaphors, no figures of speech. Just straight talk about eternal security.

 

[Mike]

This thread desperately needs a reminder that the rules for posting in the Theology Forum prominently includes the requirement to cite scripture when opposing someone's position. Those who neglect this rule consistently will be suspended from this discussion.

The Theology Forum is differentiated from others on CFnet where opinions and banter are the norm. Comments to others without furthering the discussion are not in keeping with the purpose of this forum.

Please do not respond to this post.

Thank you.

 

[JLB]

That's never been the discussion. The issue is that all recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's what Jesus was clear about.

iow, once given eternal life, the recipient will never perish. John 10:28

The view that salvation can be lost and a saved person can perish is directly AGAINST the words of Jesus.

That is the discussion, we are having and the question I am asking.

If a person who believes for a while then no longer believes, then that person has returned to unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Please tells how a person who once believed, then returns to unbelieving, still has eternal life, when the condition for eternal life is believe?

Shoe us a scripture, whereby those who are unbelieving still have eternal life.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

If you receive a gift, and the gift is a one time thing, then you have taken the gift.

I believe this is nothing more than playing word games. Let's just face the facts. When Jesus GIVES the gift of eternal life to believers, they HAVE it. John 5:24 says so. This isn't about "taking" but about "receiving".

If I gave you a basket of bread, and you received it from me, and then you were now in possession of it - you have taken it - I am no longer giving it.

No, I have received it, just as you noted with "you received it from me". End of discussion. You gave, I received. Period.

On the other hand, if we simply see what Jesus says - and not add any of our own interpretation to it - we see He gives us eternal life. He has the basket of bread and gives us a loaf whenever we need it.

More error. This isn't about "whenever we need eternal life", as your example indicates. Eternal life is a GIFT, given to believers. When they believe. Because Jesus said so. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. This isn't about "whenever we need it".

If that idea were true, then Jesus would have said "those who believe will be given eternal life whenever they need it." See how silly that sounds? And He never said any such thing.

Many of your claims are not based on Scripture.

Continuing to receive eternal life from Christ does not go against His teaching

This assumption has not been shown from Scripture. And, John 5:24 refutes it completely.

it actually makes it all come together without having to reason conflicting passages.

Huh?

 

[FreeGrace]

.

Are you beginning to believe that it is fear of the lake of fire that will keep a man following Jesus? I hope not!

The Bible presents two motivations for continuing in the faith and following Jesus. One is the warning of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11), including weakness, sickness and even physical death (1 Cor 11:30), and the other is the promise of earned rewards for faithfulness and obedience.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are posing a false arguement. The OSAS position claims that believing is a condition for entering Christ, at which point he has the kind / type of life in Christ that is everlasting.

Something else, you pose the question:
'At what point in the life of a person does eternal life go from . . .'

Here is a question:
'At what point in the life of a person does neverending life end?'

 

[JLB]

Correct. And it's permanent. It's an irrevocable gift of God (Rom 11:29).

Romans 11:29 doesn't say eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God.

You will need to cite scripture for all in this thread to examine, to see if what you say is true.

Here is what Romans 11:29 says -

• For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Eternal life nor salvation is mentioned in this verse.

The gifts and calling are irrevocable.


Context:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
Romans 11:28-31

Paul is showing that the call of the Gospel is still available to those who are enemies of the Gospel, the unbelieving Jews, who are disobedient to the call to repent.

They refuse to believe, which is the condition for eternal life, of which we both agree.

• Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The disobedient Jews can still be grafted back in to the natural olive tree if they do not continue in unbelief.

• 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I know the answer to that one.

Theologically speaking, the hopeful answer is never. However, at which point in the life of a person it can end is when they walk away from it - leave it.

This is repeated often, and NEVER with any Scripture to back it up or support the claim that one can becomed un-sealed from the Holy Spirit.

Or where His sheep become someone else's sheep? Jesus said His sheep will never perish.

The loss of salvation claim is that a sheep of His CAN perish. Directly against what Jesus said.

Why doesn't that give pause?

 

[FreeGrace]

A false argument?

Yes, of course.

I'm in a discussion with a person here who claims believing is no longer required, after a person is born again, nor is continuing to have faith.

Eternal life is just that; eternal.

That is their position.

It's also Jesus' position from John 10:28. His sheep will never perish. No conditions.

A person who once believed, can depart from Christ, renouncing Him as Lord, and turning to serve Allah, confessing him as Lord, and still have the eternal life they once had, when they had faith in Christ.

If and when this occurs, or any other such offensive thing, God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) kicks in (pun intended) and can include weakness, sickness, and even physical death (1 Cor 11:30). So no one "gets away with" anything, in spite of that false claim being made.

So my question is not a false argument.

Yep. It still IS a false argument.

At what point in the life of a Christian, is the condition to believe, no longer required to have eternal life?

JLB

One a person believes, they HAVE eternal life, said Jesus in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

3 things are said about WHEN one believes.
1. have eternal life
2. will not be judged
3. has crossed over from death to life.

All from an act of believing in the present time, all of these 3 things apply. Note that #2 is a future act. All from an act in the present.

 

[JLB]

I believe this is nothing more than playing word games. Let's just face the facts. When Jesus GIVES the gift of eternal life to believers, they HAVE it. John 5:24 says so. This isn't about "taking" but about "receiving".

You will need to cite the verse, so we can all discuss what the scripture actually says, which may different than what you claim it says.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Believe is the condition for having eternal life, which is only found in Christ.

Context:

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

As we read the context, we find that Jesus also requires... those who have done good, to obtain the resurrection of life

• shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Those who believe shall not come into judgement, The Day of Judgement, and thereby the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"That's never been the discussion. The issue is that all recipients of eternal life will never perish. That's what Jesus was clear about.

iow, once given eternal life, the recipient will never perish. John 10:28

The view that salvation can be lost and a saved person can perish is directly AGAINST the words of Jesus."

That is the discussion, we are having and the question I am asking.

If a person who believes for a while then no longer believes, then that person has returned to unbelieving.

While offensive to any Christian, no one has provided any Scripture that says that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

What this verse proves is that a believer can cease to believe. And that's all. There is nothing in the context about losing salvation or ceasing to be saved.

Please tells how a person who once believed, then returns to unbelieving, still has eternal life, when the condition for eternal life is believe?

Because they ALREADY have been given eternal life WHEN they FIRST believed, according to Jesus in John 5:24.

This question ASSUMES that eternal life is given in some kind of continuous action (like water dripping out of a hose) only as long as one continues to believe. But this is not taught anywhere in Scripture. And forum rules REQUIRE verses to back up one's claims.

Shoe us a scripture, whereby those who are unbelieving still have eternal life.

JLB

What Jesus said is clear enough. His sheep, recipients of eternal life, will never perish. John 10:28

No one has shown what He said to mean otherwise. What should be quite clear is that He gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

 

[Nathan]

I believe this is nothing more than playing word games. Let's just face the facts. When Jesus GIVES the gift of eternal life to believers, they HAVE it. John 5:24 says so. This isn't about "taking" but about "receiving".


No, I have received it, just as you noted with "you received it from me". End of discussion. You gave, I received. Period.


More error. This isn't about "whenever we need eternal life", as your example indicates. Eternal life is a GIFT, given to believers. When they believe. Because Jesus said so. Those who believe HAVE eternal life. This isn't about "whenever we need it".

If that idea were true, then Jesus would have said "those who believe will be given eternal life whenever they need it." See how silly that sounds? And He never said any such thing.

Many of your claims are not based on Scripture.


This assumption has not been shown from Scripture. And, John 5:24 refutes it completely.


Huh?

If you did not chop up my posts then you might understand. However, when we take the words of another out of their context, trying to build arguments and discussions on single sentences, we loose what the person is trying to say. Much the same thing happens when we do it to the Words of God.

We need life continually or else we will die.

Psa 36:9
For with you is the fountain of life;
in your light do we see light.

The lie from the beginning is that man can be like God, and never die. The truth from the beginning is that man receives life from God, and without God giving man life, man will die.

Psa 54:4
Behold, God is my helper;
the Lord is the upholder of my life.

David was a man after God's own heart. If David considered life from God as continual - so will I.

 

[JLB]

One a person believes, they HAVE eternal life, said Jesus in John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

3 things are said about WHEN one believes.
1. have eternal life
2. will not be judged
3. has crossed over from death to life.

All from an act of believing in the present time, all of these 3 things apply. Note that #2 is a future act. All from an act in the present.

Yes, when one believes they are "in Christ", where they have eternal life, because they are joined to, and are one spirit with Christ.

From that point, they must remain "in Christ".


Are you teaching that when a person believes they are not "in Christ" , but they somehow have eternal life.

The only way a person can have eternal life is "in Christ".

The only place eternal life is found.

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

JLB