OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[Nathan]

This is repeated often, and NEVER with any Scripture to back it up or support the claim that one can becomed un-sealed from the Holy Spirit.

Or where His sheep become someone else's sheep? Jesus said His sheep will never perish.

The loss of salvation claim is that a sheep of His CAN perish. Directly against what Jesus said.

Why doesn't that give pause?

No, the truth that is taught states that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. That people who turn from the Living God to listen and follow the world powers of darkness will perish because they are not receiving life from God - the only source of life.

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 11:29 doesn't say eternal life is an irrevocable gift from God.

It says God's gifts are irrevocable. And Rom 6:23 says eternal life is a gift of God. Pretty clear and simple.

However, Jesus nailed the lid shut on the notion of losing salvation in John 10:28 where He said that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

He gave NO CONDITIONS to recipients of eternal life in order to never perish. So the claim that one of His sheep (saved people) can perish goes directly against what Jesus said.

That's not a position that I'd EVER want to be in.

How does believing what is directly opposite of what Jesus said show one's trust and faith in Jesus Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

You will need to cite the verse, so we can all discuss what the scripture actually says, which may different than what you claim it says.

I DID cite it. So this request is odd indeed.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Believe is the condition for having eternal life, which is only found in Christ.[/QUOTE]
Correct. Which has been my point all along. WHEN one believes, they HAVE eternal life. And as a result of believing at that present MOMENT in time, Jesus said 3 things occur:
1. they HAVE, as in possess, eternal life
2. they WILL NOT come into judgment (that's a future promise from a present action of belief)
3. they HAVE PASSED from death (spiritual) to life (eternal).

From all this, we see eternal security very clearly.

Context:
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

As we read the context, we find that Jesus also requires... those who have done good, to obtain the resurrection of life

• shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Those who believe shall not come into judgement, The Day of Judgement, and thereby the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.JLB

Since you've already noted that the condition for having eternal life is to believe, I have no idea why any of this is being brought up.

What hasn't been done is to show how this "context" in ANY WAY supports your claim that a saved person can perish.

Will that be forthcoming? Or not?

 

[FreeGrace]

If you did not chop up my posts then you might understand.

What is seen as "chopping up" a post is actually addressing EACH POINT being made.

Posts are made up of sentences, organized into paragraphs. The ONLY WAY to address each point is to do that within the post. I'm not changing. I just wish others would "chop up" my posts and actually address my individual points. But all I get are general comments, most of which don't address ANY of my points. It's as if my points have just gone over their heads, or they are being ignored.

We need life continually or else we will die.

Like water dripping out of a hose?? No, eternal life is just that; eternal. The life that God gives is eternal. If words do mean things, (and they DO), then we know that what God gives us cannot die. So your premise is wrong.

Psa 36:9
For with you is the fountain of life;
in your light do we see light.

The lie from the beginning is that man can be like God, and never die. The truth from the beginning is that man receives life from God, and without God giving man life, man will die.

What seems to be either NOT understood or maybe just rejected, is that God gives this eternal life in a moment of time. He doesn't drip it on us over time, as your statements would suggest.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, when one believes they are "in Christ", where they have eternal life, because they are joined to, and are one spirit with Christ.

Correct. And Eph 1:14 guarantees this union with Christ is permanent.

From that point, they must remain "in Christ".

No one has yet proven that this is the same as union with Christ. The verses where we are commanded to abide and remain in Him cannot be about our union with Christ, because of several things.
1. We are NOT in charge of our union with Christ. God is. And the indwelling Holy Spirit is His guarantee over our inheritance. Eph 1:14
2. To abide or remain in Him speaks of fellowship. We cannot live the Christian life apart from fellowship with Him.

Are you teaching that when a person believes they are not "in Christ" , but they somehow have eternal life.

Of course not. When one believes, they are in union with Christ, per Eph 1:13. And they HAVE eternal life, per John 5:24.

The only way a person can have eternal life is "in Christ".

No argument. Of course. My point all along.

The only place eternal life is found.

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

JLB

What has NOT been shown from Scripture is that one who has been sealed IN HIM can become unsealed. Why is that?

And why do people keep assuming one can become unsealed when the Bible guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption, per Eph 1:14?

 

[FreeGrace]

No, the truth that is taught states that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.[/QUTOE]
Yes, that's true. What's ALSO true is that those He gives eternal life (recipients of eternal life) will never perish. John 10:28

No conditions for recipients to fulfill in order to never perish.

So any claim that a saved person (recipient of eternal life) CAN perish goes DIRECTLY AGAINST the words of Jesus.

That people who turn from the Living God to listen and follow the world powers of darkness will perish because they are not receiving life from God - the only source of life.

This is a continuing false idea that eternal life is something that is "continually give". Where does the Bible says this? It doesn't.

In fact, the Bible is clear; they HAVE (not keep receiving) eternal life WHEN they believe. John 5:24

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

How does this apply to the discussion of losing salvation or "receiving eternal life over time"? Please advise.

 

[Nathan]

What is seen as "chopping up" a post is actually addressing EACH POINT being made.

Posts are made up of sentences, organized into paragraphs. The ONLY WAY to address each point is to do that within the post. I'm not changing. I just wish others would "chop up" my posts and actually address my individual points. But all I get are general comments, most of which don't address ANY of my points. It's as if my points have just gone over their heads, or they are being ignored.


Like water dripping out of a hose?? No, eternal life is just that; eternal. The life that God gives is eternal. If words do mean things, (and they DO), then we know that what God gives us cannot die. So your premise is wrong.


What seems to be either NOT understood or maybe just rejected, is that God gives this eternal life in a moment of time. He doesn't drip it on us over time, as your statements would suggest.

You assume that the point I am making is independent of the others, when actually all of the sentences I write depend on each other for a complete message. So chopping them up also chops up my thoughts and leads to misunderstanding - much the same way chopping up Bible passages leads to misunderstanding.

Eternal life is not like water dripping from a hose. It is like water flowing from a spring. The water is eternal into the place it flows, but it is only eternal because of where it flows from. God is the source of eternal life, He gives us His life.

When God places us into Christ, when we are born from above, we at that moment start to receive His life - and will continually, for all eternity, receive His life so long as we remain in Him. Without Him, we do not have His life.

Psa 119:93
I will never forget your precepts,
for by them you have given me life.

1Jo 5:11-12
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[Cygnus]

If you receive a gift, and the gift is a one time thing, then you have taken the gift. If I gave you a basket of bread, and you received it from me, and then you were now in possession of it - you have taken it - I am no longer giving it.

On the other hand, if we simply see what Jesus says - and not add any of our own interpretation to it - we see He gives us eternal life. He has the basket of bread and gives us a loaf whenever we need it.

Continuing to receive eternal life from Christ does not go against His teaching, it actually makes it all come together without having to reason conflicting passages.

Those are the basics of the faith. He is life, only He owns it, He gives it freely to those in Him, apart from Him we have no life.

I've read from a tot of people the need to "earn" that gift....or do this or that to maintain that gift....which would then make the gift in all actuality a reward.

 

[markathome]

What has NOT been shown from Scripture is that one who has been sealed IN HIM can become unsealed. Why is that?

Just because people can't hear what the Word says doesn't make the Words untrue, they are just blinded to the Word presented before them, much the same way the Jews was blind to the actual Truth standing before them.

And why do people keep assuming one can become unsealed when the Bible guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption, per Eph 1:14?

To Seal someone & then to unSeal them with a new Seal is explained in Rev 13

When we decide something is a Truth and then there are Verses that disagree with our Truth then we have to change it into something that satisfy out itching ears?


God Bless

 

[Cygnus]

Are you beginning to believe that it is fear of the lake of fire that will keep a man following Jesus? I hope not!

I hope not too.

 

[Chopper]

I've always liked this verse when thinking of eternal security of the Believer in Christ Jesus, or whether a Believer will not make Salvation's reward in the end....
John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."

It always boils down to the age old question. Was the person saved to begin with. If yes? he will make it. If no, he won't, Simple as that, case closed!!

 

[Cygnus]

I've always liked this verse when thinking of eternal security of the Believer in Christ Jesus, or whether a Believer will not make Salvation's reward in the end....
John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."

It always boils down to the age old question. Was the person saved to begin with. If yes? he will make it. If no, he won't, Simple as that, case closed!!

I agree.
I also might add as you hinted to above.....if a believer..."back slides" (call it what you want)...that believer won't lose salvation but instead will lose rewards.
1 Cor 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire

 

[billybalke]

I see that as a definition. What if one stops from turning from sin? This forum seem to be producing two views. One, if you stop turning from sin...disbelieving in Jesus...you lose your salvation. The other, once saved always saved.

I believe scripture teaches "if you stop turning from sin---you lose your salvation"

 

[Cygnus]

I believe scripture teaches "if you stop turning from sin---you lose your salvation"

What you are saying is that the free gift of salvation...if you've received it is now dependent on what you do.

So much for the free gift.

 

[billybalke]

What you are saying is that the free gift of salvation...if you've received it is now dependent on what you do.

So much for the free gift.

Care to discuss it on a one-on-one in a Christian fashion?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
Was Paul saved when he wrote these words, and what is winning Christ?

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT PAUL, and then in 1 Cor 11:1 you tell us to follow Jesus as you did, because we will be judged for reward according to Rom 2:16, and you received that gospel by our risen Savior. Gal 1:11-12.

Do OSNAS love Jesus as part of their retaining their salvation?
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Can they just go about murdering others, committing fornication, or even breaking the speed limit, and still think they retain the faith to someday be given eternal life? Is this what winning Christ means to them?

(Sorry I haven't read all the posts yet.)

From my understanding OSAS stems primarily from hope given in the bible. With a few bibical support the hope is that our failures will not make God relinquish us from His hand and that He will hold on to us. OSNAS stems from other biblical support of the nessiasity to turn from our sins, and to follow God, and follow Jesus's teachings as well; but also from experience of people who left Christianity, or from stories of others that you didn't witness but also left Christianity.

As far as I can tell those are the core foundations of both perspectives. On which they build their other perspectives and arguments. The trouble I keep seeing is that both perspectives misrepresent the other perspective, and therefore if they hold any good critism to offer they are rejected along side the warped view that they present of the other perspective.

The truth regardless of OSAS or OSNAS is that we are not in control of our salvation. God is, and therefore out of love for God and appreation of His saving grace we should be obediant to Him. Or we should fear God and be obediant to Him least we lose our salvation because of straining God's patience. In either case the case for being obediant to God should be strong regardless of taking a OSAS stance or a OSNAS stance. Yet somehow it becomes a legalism verses something else argument.

There is nothing wrong with being obediant, and encouraging eachother in the same. Jesus even gave a teaching on confronting a fellow believer who sins against you. And in the first part Jesus says to do this to win them back, thus doing it for their sake, not our own. But none the less still being obediant, encouraging others in obedience to God and repenting of sin are a benchmark through out the bible and within the new Testiment as well. Legalism verses faith without rules should not be an issue.

(Sorry for the rant. Part of it is in reply to the OP. Part of it is from a few threads I see in the OSAS/OSNAS threads.)

 

[Eugene]

(Sorry for the rant. Part of it is in reply to the OP. Part of it is from a few threads I see in the OSAS/OSNAS threads.)

Christian Sufferings
Thanks for your well thought out reply.

 

[Nathan]

Heb 3
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God’s house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’”

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

The issue is that we keep hearing of people who "were not really saved", yet we find this to be just a way of describing something people have a hard time understanding. We do not find that all people who do not continue in the faith were "not saved" to begin with.

However, when we learn from God, using His words to us as an example, we see that people who leave Christ - who fall away - who turn from God and His grace - are indeed people who were "saved", they just chose not to believe in that or not continue to believe in it.

The Exodus example is written in plain words to describe this situation. God saved the entire nation of people. Delivered them from bondage. They were as saved as they ever could be. Free from slavery. Yet some believed, some didn't, and some chose not to believe later on after believing at one point in time.

God gives us the choice to follow or not. When we stand before Him, there will be no excuses of "so and so" made me do this, or "I did this, so you have to do this". God is going to judge us based on one thing - faith in His Son. Those who have faith in His Son will be in the kingdom, those without faith in His Son will not be in the kingdom. It matters not what you did or did not do at one point in time.

People who have faith in His Son are known by their fruit. Very simple. Very straight forward.

 

[FreeGrace]

You assume that the point I am making is independent of the others, when actually all of the sentences I write depend on each other for a complete message.

John 10:28 is a complete message: "I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

So chopping them up also chops up my thoughts and leads to misunderstanding - much the same way chopping up Bible passages leads to misunderstanding.

I've already explained why I take on your points one at a time. I just wish other posters would address my points individually. As it is, my points are generally not even addressed, and either just more questions are asked, or general comments (talking points) are made.

Eternal life is not like water dripping from a hose.

Well, thank you for that admission.

It is like water flowing from a spring. The water is eternal into the place it flows, but it is only eternal because of where it flows from. God is the source of eternal life, He gives us His life.

Ok then. So, what's the difference between water flowing out of a hose and water flowing from a spring??

When God places us into Christ, when we are born from above, we at that moment start to receive His life - and will continually, for all eternity, receive His life so long as we remain in Him. Without Him, we do not have His life.

There are no verses about receiving eternal life in increments or steadily, as though we need a steady flow. Eternal life is given WHEN one believes. We have all we need to live with God in eternity. And after we die physically, we will experience eternity fully.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What has NOT been shown from Scripture is that one who has been sealed IN HIM can become unsealed. Why is that?"

Just because people can't hear what the Word says doesn't make the Words untrue, they are just blinded to the Word presented before them, much the same way the Jews was blind to the actual Truth standing before them.

Please provide the verse/text that teaches that a sealed believer can be unsealed then.

The problem is that Eph 1:13,14 is what is being misunderstood by those who claim salvation can be lost. The sealing with the Holy Spirit is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption. How is that not about eternal security??

To Seal someone & then to unSeal them with a new Seal is explained in Rev 13

Huh? How does the seal of Rev 13 relate in any way to Eph 1:13?? The seal in Rev 13 is God's mark on specifically 144,000 Jews.

When we decide something is a Truth and then there are Verses that disagree with our Truth then we have to change it into something that satisfy out itching ears?
God Bless

So, does this mean we just accept that verses don't agree and that Scripture is internally contradictory??