Kidron
Member
Brother, are you familiar with the term..."Rapture of the Church"?
Where do those "saints' end up within your 1st and 2nd resurrection theology?
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Bible Study Our Body/Our Spirit
- Thread starter Angel
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Brother, are you familiar with the term..."Rapture of the Church"?
Where do those "saints' end up within your 1st and 2nd resurrection theology?
Butch5
Member
I believe the saints will be gathered when Christ returns.
Kidron
Member
Butch5
Member
Me too
I try not to use the word rapture because many have the idea of Christians flying away to Heaven.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
What?!? it's not that?
Butch5
Member
No. It's not.
They are caught up with the Resurrected ones to meet Christ in the air as He returns to Jerusalem.
The Raptured saints are caught up with the dead in Christ as one event.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Jesus returns with the saints at the resurrection/rapture to earth.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14
God will bring with Jesus back to earth, those saints that are in heaven that have previously died and are awaiting the resurrection.
Once the dead in Christ rise, then just afterward those who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM.
JLB
Your timing of events is still off. You need to get that sorted.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17
THEM in verse 17 is the dead in Christ who are raised first, before the Raptured ones are caught up.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
This group of the resurrected dead in Christ and then after them, the raptured ones, shall all be together with the Lord in the air, on His way back to earth.
JLB
B
Brother Mike
Guest
You keep forgetting "US" get raptured "BEFORE" the Antichrist (Son of perdition) is reveled. I forgot, my bad, you still don't think Apostasia is a Greek Female noun.
I guess your going to be real disappointed preparing for tribulation, only to find you have to watch the whole thing in Heaven. I keep trying to tell you.
That's great!
Here is the scripture that shows the Resurrection of the dead in Christ, happens before the Rapture, and that they are caught up together, to meet Christ in the air.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Do you have a scripture that shows us that the resurrection of the dead will happen before the tribulation?
He gathers all of His people at the resurrection, and afterward the rapture.
Please show the scripture where this event happens before the tribulation.
JLB
B
Brother Mike
Guest
...the dead in Christ will rise first.
Here is my scripture that shows the Gathering of all God's people in heaven and on earth, which includes those that return with Jesus from heaven to receive their new bodies at the resurrection, and the rapture that takes place after the resurrection, of those who are alive and remain on earth.
... Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27
The resurrection comes just before the rapture, and all are gathered together to meet Christ in the air at His Coming.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
The Resurrection/Rapture are One Event.
This Event takes place AFTER the tribulation of those days... according to Jesus.
JLB
About the Son of God
Member
That's probably a mistake. Although scripture does use hyperbole, and parable, both.... there is likely something more that you've overlooked. Let me start out by agreeing, however, that it is very reasonable to consider Hades as equivalent to the grave. But, the grave is not only the pit of death -- it is also equivalent to many a dark place, and scripture also shows that a dark pit can be a womb of life. Look to Sarah, the "pit" from which you were dug. ( Isaiah 51:1 )
Yes... but that's also a passage which shows that if a man dies, and his body is dead, then people of the time clearly assumed the ghost or specter of that person can visit them after death; very much as Saul sought to have Samuel speak to him after death, although he KNEW Samuel's body was in a grave and exactly where it was. That kind of spirit, no longer has flesh and bones for the very reason that it is literally disembodied by dying or execution. That's what the power of death is... and Jesus is disproving to the disciples in Luke 24:37 what *they* thought they were seeing -- a disembodied spirit; a specter of the dead or perhaps a vision in their minds.
Whether a spirit can form a body on it's own, of it's own power, is different from whether people believed a disembodied spirit in angst or anger of being murdered might be in an evil state and might seek to possess another mans body (eg: we know from scripture that at very least, demons and possession go together). So -- although I agree with your quote, and a possible implication: I don't think Luke 24:37-39 intends to answer the question of whether or not a spirit can form a body from the dust, on it's own, and even if it can have flesh and bones; for clearly if devils who are spirits can possess a man, then it's not a far leap of logic to think a vindictive spirit of a dead man, who's friends deserted him at the cross, might also come back from the grave to possess the body of someone with a guilty conscience.
But on the other hand, good spirits, and the spirit of God himself, are sometimes mentioned as having bodies (soma), eg:
Luke 3:22 http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/3-22.htm "in the bodily form of a dove".
So that spirits, even if we can't prove it has a body of "dust" for sure -- at very least, a spirit must be able to have the eyes, wings, beak, and other features of a dove in some translucent but visible form even if it wasn't *born* with a fleshly body. To draw out the implication: If scripture shows a bodily form for a pure spirit, why then do you have problems with Abraham having hands, and eyes, or the Rich Man ? They simply aren't hands and eyes made of flesh, if that's the case ? is it not ?
Hmmm...
That shows that immortality comes from God, continuously, as it's source; But I don't see how that shows that man or angels aren't immortal.
Even in your quote of Job 34, it already says, God will never DO wickedly -- eg: although a man can imagine that the power to do wickedly, does exist within God.
It goes without saying that God could slay man by taking away any number of things that belong to God, for everything that is created belongs to God. If he took away just the oxygen in the air, and left us the rest of the nitrogen and carbon dioxide; we would still die though technically he didn't take away all the "spirit" known as air. And although you are correct that there are two words which mean breath, or air, in the sentence in Job -- I don't see how it follows that there is only one kind of spirit, and not tens of millions of individual spirits each with unique traits. Eg: That the author is abbreviating, and that all spirits are represented by two examples.
Even when Paul spoke of Body, Soul, and Spirit like you were talking about earilier -- even a quick look at the Greek reveals that Paul said TWO distinct things in the received text; eg: that God preserve them, I think in whole (holos) purpose (teleos) and whole (holos) portion (klEros).
I mean, look for yourself -- don't be confused by what I just said:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/5-23.htm
Paul is even fore-warning us that the list is going to be redundant in terms of constituents, for the union is to be preserved as well as the parts and must be listed separately.
So: It's not a stable deduction that because there are three "things" mentioned by Paul, that a man is made up of three parts (AKA: I agree with you that one can reasonably think that a man IS a soul , not that he must have a soul, for soul is in the joining of spirit + body. )
I also think it's a premature discernment to take a passage relating to groups of people, and use it to try and extract what "components" an individual has in their make-up in the first place. Especially without thinking carefully about whether or not scripture could also mean one of the spirits of churches, as mentioned in revelation, vs. spirit of the age, or air. etc. which is the guardian or preserver of the group of men Paul is speaking to.
Then there's also issues with picking bones with people, for we say "bone" but often mean "bone and marrow", and so (for example) with Adam and Eve, is she just "bone" of his bones -- or also the marrow, and joints ? Parts, and whole, are often used interchangably (synecdoche), though they DO have different meanings.
eg: A Ships captain has often said "all hands on deck" according to WHAT he want's done requiring a man's hands -- but I know for sure that he want's their butts up there too!
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Butch5
Member
The passages are speaking of God’s spirit. Even if there are tens of millions of individual spirit it doesn’t mean that they are not all breath/spirit. All people are people, even thought there a millions.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. I didn’t exegete the passage I simply stated what I believe the passage says. It seems pretty clear to me.
What passage are you referring to here. I don’t know which it is but the components come from Gen 2 where we are told of mans creation.
If by whole you include a spirit that” is” man that will have to be established from Scripture. I well aware of figurative language in Scripture and certainly understand that “bone of my bone” means her substance is the same.
Butch5
Member
I thought you were be facetious. Watching the tribulation from heaven? Where do you even see a passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven, let alone before the tribulation
Edward
2024 Supporter
As far as spirits having or not having bodies, it is impossible to say. But it would seem the logical thing to assume.
You up on the quantum Physics brother? They're saying now that we live in a projection and that as we know it, matter doesn't exist. What we see is made out of light. So they probably have bodies, but us humans have not comprehended the what/how's of it all as it relates to the spiritual realm. I'm not making this stuff up, here's a 2 minute video that gives the 2 minute version of the reality of it.
You can more details of it on youtube. They have a slew of vid's on the subject.
You up on the quantum Physics brother? They're saying now that we live in a projection and that as we know it, matter doesn't exist. What we see is made out of light. So they probably have bodies, but us humans have not comprehended the what/how's of it all as it relates to the spiritual realm. I'm not making this stuff up, here's a 2 minute video that gives the 2 minute version of the reality of it.
You can more details of it on youtube. They have a slew of vid's on the subject.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
There is HDTV in Heaven Butch!!!! Don't you know, we watch it unfold there, with Popcorn.
By now though, you ought to know that quoting each other on things we already know what each other believe is pointless. Right? I mean pages we have batted back and forth on and get nowhere. This forum is filled with lots of Butch and Mike just going on and on.
I'll get back to you when I find that scripture about the HDTV.
About the Son of God
Member
Yes, I'm not contradicting you. I'm pointing out that scripture itself doesn't define what is meant by the two different words for spirit. There can be differences between spirits, even though they are generically called "spirit". That's all.
And I went in and looked at the original language to verify what you said...
I was still speaking about 1Thessalonians 5:23.
Note: I don't skip around verses without saying I'm changing verses.
1Thessalonians is written to groups of people, not specifically individuals. So the words body, soul, and spirit, can refer to aspects of groups of people -- and are not necessarily talking only about the components of an individual.
eg: Groups of people, can be an instance of a "church" to whom Paul is speaking; and churches have not only the spirits of individual people, but scripture also speaks of a "spirit" for each of the 7 churches"; cf: Revelation 1:4 So: When Paul talks about preserving unity, in Thessalonians, then -- this "spirit" he mentions could also be the spirit of the churches, or of God, in addition to the spirit of a man; eg: the spirit of 1Thessalonians 5:23, among a collection of body, soul, and spirit.
I think it's pretty much established right there in 1Thesalonians in the original language: Paul is praying that they be preserved in their constituent parts, and in their unity. If the Parts are "Spirit + Body", then it follows the unity is "soul"; Hence Spirit(s)+physical Body when *united* are also known as a soul. I don't see any other way to arrange the list Paul made and still have some of them be all the parts of the people ("you all"), and what is left be the unity between the parts.
Do you?
Sigh... what a very loaded sentence based on word roots. :biggrin
sub-stance (Latin) ~= under-stand (English) ~= hypo-stasis (Greek)
Lot's of Christians have killed each other over the subtle connotation differences, too....
All I meant to say is that: Soul usually implies an included spirit, just as bone usually implies an included marrow. The meanings of the individual words can be broken down farther, but Paul doesn't bother to do so.
Also, I'd like to stress again -- outside the passage of Thessalonians, that scripture often shows that a spirit has the ability to form some kind of body. For people can often see spirits, even when they can't hold them / physically touch them.
The Holy Spirit doesn't have a human or animal flesh of it's own, it was never "incarnated" because by definition the Holy Spirit is a spirit, right?
Yet scripture still says that the Holy Spirit had a shape, eg: a body, and specifically one recognizable as a dove -- and I mean during the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan. (Luke 3:21-22) So spirits clearly can take on the shape of body parts and form shapes for themselves which they know about, eg: even without the flesh and bones.
The same can easily be proven of Angels who are also spirits... for in several cases in the OT, angels came to visit people (such as Lot), and the angels clearly must have looked like people with tongues, and arms, etc. because people were UNAWARE that who they saw were in fact angels. Eg: Hebrews 13:2, Genesis 19:1-2.
If that's the case with spirits, then there is nothing at all surprising that the story Jesus told about the Rich Man who had died, mentions a man who spoke of his "tongue" burning. (Luke 16:23-24) A spirit can certainly have a tongue of/on fire. Most angels are that way normally.
I mean, really -- if the rich man were just in a grave pit, and the rich man HAD a body, then he ought to be appalled at the though of Lazerous, who had leprosy, coming to "touch" him.
But he's not upset about it -- in fact he's begging for it. (Luke 16:24) SO -it's clear in the story that the sicknesses of flesh are no longer what concerns the rich man.
No, what is really curious to me is that the rich man in Hades is next to another "pit" that is even deeper than the one he is already in. ( Luke 16:26 )
Butch5
Member
Sorry, I was kinda tired when I replied to your post.
What passage are you referring to here. I don’t know which it is but the components come from Gen 2 where we are told of mans creation.
I don’t see how the components can refer to different groups of people.
I’m not sure churches as a group have spirits. I suppose spirit could be use figuratively as in school spirit or such as, I’m with you in spirit.
I agree.
Sigh... what a very loaded sentence based on word roots.
sub-stance (Latin) ~= under-stand (English) ~= hypo-stasis (Greek)
Lot's of Christians have killed each other over the subtle connotation differences, too....
All I meant to say is that: Soul usually implies an included spirit, just as bone usually implies an included marrow. The meanings of the individual words can be broken down farther, but Paul doesn't bother to do so.
Also, I'd like to stress again -- outside the passage of Thessalonians, that scripture often shows that a spirit has the ability to form some kind of body. For people can often see spirits, even when they can't hold them / physically touch them.
The Holy Spirit doesn't have a human or animal flesh of it's own, it was never "incarnated" because by definition the Holy Spirit is a spirit, right?
Yet scripture still says that the Holy Spirit had a shape, eg: a body, and specifically one recognizable as a dove -- and I mean during the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan. (Luke 3:21-22) So spirits clearly can take on the shape of body parts and form shapes for themselves which they know about, eg: even without the flesh and bones.
The same can easily be proven of Angels who are also spirits... for in several cases in the OT, angels came to visit people (such as Lot), and the angels clearly must have looked like people with tongues, and arms, etc. because people were UNAWARE that who they saw were in fact angels. Eg: Hebrews 13:2, Genesis 19:1-2.
If that's the case with spirits, then there is nothing at all surprising that the story Jesus told about the Rich Man who had died, mentions a man who spoke of his "tongue" burning. (Luke 16:23-24) A spirit can certainly have a tongue of/on fire. Most angels are that way normally.
I mean, really -- if the rich man were just in a grave pit, and the rich man HAD a body, then he ought to be appalled at the though of Lazerous, who had leprosy, coming to "touch" him.
But he's not upset about it -- in fact he's begging for it. (Luke 16:24) SO -it's clear in the story that the sicknesses of flesh are no longer what concerns the rich man.
No, what is really curious to me is that the rich man in Hades is next to another "pit" that is even deeper than the one he is already in. ( Luke 16:26 )
It would seem to me that the idea that spirits can form bodies will have to be proven from Scripture. I would submit that God gives them the bodies as needed.
However, If this it to address the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man I’d submit the parable has nothing to do with the afterlife at all.