Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun...

[Pard]

Not putting one thing God said before another.

Really because it sounds like it. Before you just said that you wouldn't be convinced by scripture unless it was from the New Testament. Clearly this is putting one thing before another and if this is how you feel then I don't see why I should even approach you at the Biblical level as clearly your view of the Bible is simply wrong.

 

[stovebolts]

From Post 35

I fully understand that is an entirely separate question as to whether we can indeed keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But in that case, the best long term kingdom honouring answer is not to arm ourselves, but to figure out ways to get guns out of the hands of everybody.

Out of your whole post, I think this is the one that needs to be addressed the most. Why? Because it concerns everybody, Christian and non-Christian alike. And yes Drew, I wish that we could get guns out of the hands of people who mis-use them, but they do serve a purpose for hunters etc. Again, a gun is not a weapon until it is turned against another human being.

Moving forward, I will be using the term weapon to indicate when a gun is inappropriately used in relation to the idea of being anti-kingdom because a gun is not a weapon, but it can be used as a weapon... Just like a knife, or a sharp stick.

It would be fantastic to get the weapons out of the hands of everybody, but I don't see that as a possible task. Heck, you couldn't get alcohol off the streets in prohibition and we can't get drugs out of our schools and neighborhoods.

I would say, that a big step in getting the weapons out of the hands of everyone who used them as such, would mean we would have to deal with the drug cartel first.

Drew, how do we, in the present Kingdom, rid the world of drugs effectively so there would be no need of any type of weapon? And do you think the earth could presently be rid of drugs without the use of weapons?

 

[Classik]

TRUST is what is in question here!


Do you trust the lord can protect you or is he like a wooden idol to you.


I dont care what anyone says or what your stupid constitution says.. the law of your land wriitn by men.



Jesus spread message of peace and love. he never used VIOLENCE but rebuked it.

Make no mistake the person you call lord Jesus Christ used non violent methods to bring about change.

No knives No guns- If you carry weapons in preparation against your neighbors it means Jehovah is weak and you serve a dead useless idol or non existent god unable to intervene in men's actions!

Indst the violent religion muslim? i thought Jesus was peaceful.

That balances everything

And after shopping I got you this:
http://www.giantfoodstores.com/shar...s/departments/bakery/images/cakes_landing.gif

 

[Nacho]

A gun is a powerful symbol of some of the very things Jesus strove to overturn – the exertion of power of one person over another and the destruction of life that is precious to its Creator.

<O:p</O:pWhen we embrace guns, we are effectively saying “no†to the imperative to seek the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</st1:PlaceType>kingdom of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName></ST1:pl. We are saying that we reserve the right to solve a problem by taking the bloodshed route. Less dramatically perhaps, we are saying that it is OK to buy into the world’s power structures through embracing the very symbol of the use of power to achieve one’s ends. Saying “yes†to guns in the society is effectively a way of saying that Jesus is not yet Lord and that we need hunker down and use the tools of “this evil age†to wait for his return.

The gun is kind of like the cross - they are both powerful symbols of the power to deal death. Ironically, and yet wonderfully, Jesus turned things around and uses the cross to defeat death. When we buy into a culture of having guns, we are, whether we realize it or not, denying the accomplishment of the cross.

When Jesus entered history, He challenged <st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region> to abandon its ways of “being <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pIsrael</ST1:p</st1:country-region>â€. Jews were taking one of three wrong paths – the path of withdrawal from the world, the path of compromise with the world, and the path of militant zealotry. By embracing guns as an acceptable element of our world, we are making the same error as the militant zealots – using the power system of the threat of the “sword†to achieve ends.

I fully understand that is an entirely separate question as to whether we can indeed keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But in that case, the best long term kingdom honouring answer is not to arm ourselves, but to figure out ways to get guns out of the hands of everybody.<O:p</O:p

Gets the guns out of everybodies hands huh????

Funny thats the same thing Hitler and Stalin did.

How did that turn out again??? Oh yeah not good.


Guns are not evil nor does owning them mean you don't trust Jesus. A weapon does not cause evil, the person wielding it does. If you take the guns away then people will kill each other with knives and if you take those away they will kill each other with rocks, basically you can't force people to change by taking something away from them.

I trust Jesus to protect me, but I also know that Jesus uses people to do his will, and that person just might be me and my 12 gauge. Again that is not why I own guns, but I will use them for protection if I am forced to.

When you trust Jesus to provide for your family do you trust him to send you checks in the mail, or do you trust him to give you the ability to provide for your family? Sometimes Jesus uses us to answer prayers and to do his will.

 

[Drew]

From Post 35


Out of your whole post, I think this is the one that needs to be addressed the most.

Are you implying the rest of my post does not need to be addressed?

If so, I suggest that proper "debate" simply does not give that option - all clear arguments need to be addressed. Failure to address a particular will be properly seen as tacit admission that the argument has merit.

 

[Classik]

Classik,

With all due respect, what did Reba do to have people show up knocking on her door wearing masks and guns? Was it wrong for her husband to break out the gun and shove it in the bad guys face.

I really, really want an answer on how you viewed Reba's home invasion.

Now, when I was a young buck, I did a lot of things wrong... and yes, I did also had somebody come to my door with a gun, and they knew where we kept our gun so that's the first place they told us to stay away from... That would could have been ugly and the whole scene was ugly. Bad guy against bad guy.

But there is a huge difference between my encounter with somebody coming to the apartment where I was staying, and Reba's home, and you can't equate the two incidents.

For responsible gun owners, It's not about being paranoid, and yes, I know of the kind of people you're talking about. Your talking about the guy who's fascinated with guns and is looking for an intruder so he can legally kill him so he can get his rush. I don't think that's a fair assessment of most gun owners.

Chances are, most people will never experience what Reba experienced and their guns will never be used. And that's a good thing. But just like a lock on a door, it only keeps the honest people out.

BTW, did you know that most houses in Jesus day didn't have locks? Do you lock your doors at night? If so, why? Are you paranoid?

God intervened in her case. I see a difference between using a weapon against someone and mererly pointing it at some one only to scare them away.
-
Are we any safer now that we carry weapons.

-
-
You sure did not understand my use of 'paranoid'
Hope you are not putting words into my mouth

 

[Drew]

It would be fantastic to get the weapons out of the hands of everybody, but I don't see that as a possible task.

It clearly is possible, at least in respect to guns.

How do I know this? There are many places on this green earth where very few people can get guns (take South Korea, or Japan, as examples).

It may be difficult in your country with its deeply entrenched "gun culture".

But it certainly is possible.

Drew, how do we, in the present Kingdom, rid the world of drugs effectively so there would be no need of any type of weapon? And do you think the earth could presently be rid of drugs without the use of weapons?

I do not have any immediate answer, except to point out that we should not be achieving the kingdom goals by being better than the enemy at using his own weapons.

 

[Drew]

Gets the guns out of everybodies hands huh????

Funny thats the same thing Hitler and Stalin did.

How did that turn out again??? Oh yeah not good.

I am afraid this is invalid reasoning.

You are arguing from specific cases that are selectively chosen, always a dangerous thing to do.

What about Japan and South Korea. No guns in the hands of the people there, and those societies have been stable and peaceful for decades.

A weapon does not cause evil, the person wielding it does.

This is simply not correct in the sense that is important here - please see, and address post 42.

If you take the guns away then people will kill each other with knives and if you take those away they will kill each other with rocks, basically you can't force people to change by taking something away from them.

You cannot simply use this "substitution" argument as if it were self-evidently true. You need to give actual evidence that people will find substitute weapons. You might be right, but you could also be mistaken.

And, in fact, I can quote one study where the substitution effect did not happen.

 

[Pard]

If so, I suggest that proper "debate" simply does not give that option - all clear arguments need to be addressed. Failure to address a particular will be properly seen as tacit admission that the argument has merit.

And you have any room to talk ?

 

[Classik]

Really because it sounds like it. Before you just said that you wouldn't be convinced by scripture unless it was from the New Testament. Clearly this is putting one thing before another and if this is how you feel then I don't see why I should even approach you at the Biblical level as clearly your view of the Bible is simply wrong.

you totally misunderstood me as much I misunderstood you.
I said what would you do if the bad guy comes in the morning? You made that reply. So I was thinking you were refering to that situation - where he comes in the morning (the reason I said: Not putting one thing God said before another) assuming the reverse.

 

[stovebolts]

It clearly is possible, at least in respect to guns.

How do I know this? There are many places on this green earth where very few people can get guns (take South Korea, or Japan, as examples).

It may be difficult in your country with its deeply entrenched "gun culture".

But it certainly is possible.

If you look at these countries, they only have weapons... Guns are not the issue Drew, weapons are. Step it down one more rung, and it's not the weapons, but those using the weapons. It's about sin and brokenness.

And I think that is is why it is so important for us Christians on how we act and behave, which I think is your point all together if I'm not mistaken.

I do not have any immediate answer, except to point out that we should not be achieving the kingdom goals by being better than the enemy at using his own weapons.

And here in lies the problem Drew... As long as we are on this present earth, there will be wars and rumors of wars... Weapons are a part of this present earth.

As Christians, do we embrace weapons.. I think not. We live at peace with everyone we can. For a Christian, a gun should never be used as a weapon unless it is the last alternative IMHO.

 

[reba]

It's alright Stove. I wonder... would you guys who opt to just lay down and let people roll right on over you... would you defend yourself against an animal or would you just let them have their way with you also?

No Pard, of coarse not, folks pay taxes to hire protection. In that fashion personal responsibility is removed.

As Christians, do we embrace weapons.. I think not. We live at peace with everyone we can. For a Christian, a gun should never be used as a weapon unless it is the last alternative IMHO.

Amen Mr. Stovebolts!

 

[Pard]

No Pard, of coarse not, folks pay taxes to hire protection. In that fashion personal responsibility is removed.

Well everyone except Classik who would rather be rid of cops as well because since he is friends with everyone in the entire world he doesn't have to worry about being hurt...

Think he is friendly with all the animals too?

 

[Classik]

I do not have any immediate answer, except to point out that we should not be achieving the kingdom goals by being better than the enemy at using his own weapons.

Fantastic!
Some even use charms and believe they are free to combine God charms.
-

 

[Classik]

Well everyone except Classik who would rather be rid of cops as well because since he is friends with everyone in the entire world he doesn't have to worry about being hurt...

Think he is friendly with all the animals too?

Jealous? :D would you want to be like Classik - not needing cops and trusting God that He is my shelter?

 

[Pard]

Jealous? :D would you want to be like Classik - not needing cops and trusting God that He is my shelter?

Nope. Not jealous even in the slightest... Sorry.

 

[reba]

Some folks believe tax payer paid abortions are Gods kingdom.

Classik as one who has been at the business end of a gun i pray you never have to face that.

 

[Nacho]

I am afraid this is invalid reasoning.

You are arguing from specific cases that are selectively chosen, always a dangerous thing to do.

What about Japan and South Korea. No guns in the hands of the people there, and those societies have been stable and peaceful for decades.


This is simply not correct in the sense that is important here - please see, and address post 42.


You cannot simply use this "substitution" argument as if it were self-evidently true. You need to give actual evidence that people will find substitute weapons. You might be right, but you could also be mistaken.

And, in fact, I can quote one study where the substitution effect did not happen.

Wow.......thats all I can say is Wow.

We are all responsible for our own actions...we are not allowed to blame our sin on anyone or on anything. If I was given the launch button to an ICBM missle would you say I am less at fault for killing millions of people then if I did it with a sword over many many years??? No I wouldn't be...because killing is killing. We will all stand before Jesus and answer for our actions and I promise you that saying oh but Jesus I had a gun or I had a bomb will not help your defense. No one makes me drive my car into a crowd of people, but that sure would be a good way to kill people wouldn't it? Should we take away cars from people too?

And I am arguing from historical facts.....it doesn't matter if they are specific they are facts.

Speaking of Japan....did you know that one of the reasons they were unsure of invading the mainland in the US during WWII is because they knew most civilians were armed. HMMMM good thing we didn't take everyones guns away then huh?


Actual evidence huh......how about when a murder is a felon and when they get out of prison they can't buy a gun so they kill someone with a knife. If you don't think that happens then you are dreaming. Heck most serial killers don't even use guns they use knives or rope. They like to see the terror in the eyes of their victims.....that is evil!!!! Not the rope, knife or gun they used....They are evil by their actions!!!

 

[Drew]

If you look at these countries, they only have weapons... Guns are not the issue Drew, weapons are. Step it down one more rung, and it's not the weapons, but those using the weapons. It's about sin and brokenness.

You are ignoring the argument in post 42. I cannot force you, or anyone else to actually deal with it. But I can appeal to your sense of "fair play". I have constructed a clear argument as to why this "its not the weapons, its the person" argument is deeply flawed.

So please - address it.

 

[Drew]

And here in lies the problem Drew... As long as we are on this present earth, there will be wars and rumors of wars... Weapons are a part of this present earth.

So is adultery. Does this mean we participate in that, too? I confess that example is a little unfair, but you really need to explain to us why you think its acceptable for Christians to participate in the instrumentality of death when you know as well as me that Jesus went to the cross to defeat death.

I realize that you (and others) are only support weaponry in relation to self-defence. But weapons are still the tools of the enemy, and whenever someone is killed with one, Jesus' effort to defeat death on the cross is dealt a slap in the face.

I suggest that there are other ways to make life safer than to "arm ourselves". Many cultures have achieved much 'safer' living condition than in the USA (and Canada, too) without arming their citizens.

So it can be done.