Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun...

[Pard]

I could not have used the right term here. what happens along your self-defence?
-
-
Some one approaches Pard with a crowbar. He is determined to use it.
And Pard screams and runs. Pard stumble and falls with a heavy thud. The villain raises his weapon and is about to hit Pard.
Pard shouts :shocked and kicks his leg. His leg hits the villain's feet, and he fall and hits his temple on the floor. Villain dies.
Pard rises and screams.


Your action is out of self-defence! You never meant to kill him. It is manslaughter! I call it 'involuntary'
But if you had waited for the man's arrival and had killed him as he approached... It is a voluntary slaughter!

That is the question I was trying to ask,
or do you mean your intention has nothing to do with murder?

Let's use your scenario...

He falls and hits his temple. No illegal activity was committed (ie no manslaughter) because I was acting in self-defense. Self-defense isn't illegal. It isn't illegal in our modern society nor is it illegal in the code of laws the God gave to Moses.

If he came at me and I killed him without him falling and hitting his temple it is still only self-defense and I am still in no way at fault. He is at fault for trying to hurt me.

 

[Classik]

Classik,

Would take any action if a person broke into your home? Or maybe you came up on a seine where a big guy was beating a kid.. You understand what i am getting to... To what degree would you defend the "defenseless"?

I will so far as to ask do you lock your doors?

I believe most of this topic is a matter of degrees.

I can understand telling a bad guy hey take all the valuables you want. I could not do nothing if they went for my family...

Then comes the point are you willing to pay someone else to protect you and yours (ie) cops?

I am not a trouble maker. What do I need cops for.
If A doesn't trouble B, then B has no reason to trouble A. What is the need buying C to tackle B? :D
*
*
To answer your question: We do taxes directly or indirectly, and the government tries to shield us. They use the cops.

As for saving that defenseless one... I hope the bully doesn't beat me up too? I will do my best to talk sense into the person. (I know where you are going. This is quite different from using weapons as a form of defense)
-
-
....And a friend went to save another in a fight. Both came home rubbing their swollen heads

 

[Classik]

Let's use your scenario...

He falls and hits his temple. No illegal activity was committed (ie no manslaughter) because I was acting in self-defense. Self-defense isn't illegal. It isn't illegal in our modern society nor is it illegal in the code of laws the God gave to Moses.

If he came at me and I killed him without him falling and hitting his temple it is still only self-defense and I am still in no way at fault. He is at fault for trying to hurt me.

Alright!
The Important part is, Does it involve death? Could your self-defense involve one having to die, or do you just chase some thugs away using your whip?

 

[Pard]

Alright!
The Important part is, Does it involve death? Could your self-defense involve one having to die, or do you just chase some thugs away using your whip?

Whips? Why would I ever carry a whip unless my name is Indian Jones?

If the guy is willing to give up without me dead than he won't end up dead in return but if a guy comes at you with a crowbar chances are he expects you to die. People who wish to kill don't stop until they have killed which means you cannot stop until they are either incapacitated or killed (or you end up killed but that isn't an option in my book!). I am not going to go out of my way to incapacitate a person because it takes more effort and that increases your own chance of being killed.

And you need cops because even if you do not have any fault or do anything against a body that doesn't mean they won't harm you.

Did the Petit family do anything to their two attackers? No in the least! Their attackers simply deemed that they had money and they wanted it. And because of the attackers' greed they broke into the house and raped two of the women inside and killed all three of the women by burning them and also burned the house down. They did nothing wrong to the attackers they were victims.

Your reasoning has no room in an imperfect world. It doesn't even had room in a perfect world because in a perfect world there would be no vengeance and so you could do harm to person B but they would wish no ill will against you in turn.

If you would simply address my second post you'd find that I have already brought up this entire topic and proved it with scripture...

--

And did Drew just respond to one of my posts?! Because if so then he ought to go look at my second post on the first page because it has scripture that STILL has not be responded to and it is really hurting your side of the argument.

 

[reba]

Classik,

Did you read my post #6?

I am not a trouble maker. What do I need cops for.

Quick version I am not a trouble maker yet our home was invaded. Gunned masked bad guys.

 

[jasoncran]

Luke 22 NKJV

-
-
36 Then He said to them, But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I know and understand what you are trying to say here. I do not believed Christ asked them to carry swords. Look at the next verse.


-----------------------------------------------------------

37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: And He was numbered with the transgressors. For the things concerning Me have an end.



-----------------------------------------------------------
I see 37 to mean: whether you decide to fight on my behalf or not (as He knew they would attempt doing)...you can't stop Me from fulfilling the work of the Cross. Whatever violent measures you could wish to apply...I'd certainly die.

-----------------------------------------------------------
38 So they said, Lord, look, here are two swords. And He said to them, It is enough.



-----------------------------------------------------------
'It is enough', to me understanding is: Do they think they need some swords to end it - and stop me from dying? I let them take it - and I will show them they do not need it. I won't upset them any more.

with reference to the 3 verses above (He must have known their mind)

-----------------------------------------------------------
Mathew 26 NKJV

51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

-----------------------------------------------------------
They probably had brought those swords along.

-----------------------------------------------------------
52 But Jesus said to him, Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Jesus' intent was made clear to them. I believe this clears the doubt in verses 36, 37, 38 of Luke 22.
If not then why would Christ 'publicly' frown :angry at His disciple's use of violence.
-----------------------------------------------------------

54 Howthen could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?

-----------------------------------------------------------
No swords! Court!

buy a sword but dont use it? makes no sense. that is what you said to me. have one but dont use to defend yourself. so what were they to do? would god then tell you do a thing that is sin. read that in context and then see why they are commended and refer to a fe and de translation as the niv is useless with the original fully translations so that cultural bias isnt in play.

 

[Lewis]

Pard I am just getting around to reading this. I have had many arguments on this board since 2005 about this. And I still say if they break in my house and try to hurt us, and I have a gun and I can get to it, I will kill you if I have to. I will not let you come in my house or my mom's if I am over there, and let you rape or hurt her. And same goes for my house, because I will shoot you and you will be laying down wearing a suit.

 

[jasoncran]

so said lewis right wing extremist.

i agree. to classick, striking an ankle from the ground isnt effective.

mma fighters are allowed to attack the knees from the ground via kicks.

if theres more then one then the fight is all but lost to the guy on the ground.

 

[reba]

Cool Button Lewis

 

[handy]

Classik

Regarding Jesus telling his disciples to go out and buy swords, and then Peter's attack on the soldiers who came to arrest Jesus...

I believe that these two events get merged a lot when the discussion of Christian self-defense comes up. I'm not exactly sure why.

First, Jesus is about to leave and Jesus knows that his followers are going to be persecuted greatly.

He reminds them that He had sent them out before with nothing, and yet all their needs were taken care of. Now He is telling them, you'll need money, you'll need a knapsack (carried provisions), you'll need a sword. There is a sea-change about to take place in the disciples lives, and Jesus is preparing them for it.

As for Peter striking the soldier...Jesus put a stop to that because they were there to do God's will...arrest Jesus. Peter was acting contrary to what needed to take place...

This doesn't negate what Christ said earlier. They would have need of money, provisions and protection. But, Peter jumped the gun and started using the sword inappropriately and the lesson was that we need to be in God's will, whether using our money, provisions and protection...or whether deciding to not use these resources.

 

[Classik]

Whips? Why would I ever carry a whip unless my name is Indian Jones?

If the guy is willing to give up without me dead than he won't end up dead in return but if a guy comes at you with a crowbar chances are he expects you to die. People who wish to kill don't stop until they have killed which means you cannot stop until they are either incapacitated or killed (or you end up killed but that isn't an option in my book!). I am not going to go out of my way to incapacitate a person because it takes more effort and that increases your own chance of being killed.

And you need cops because even if you do not have any fault or do anything against a body that doesn't mean they won't harm you.

Did the Petit family do anything to their two attackers? No in the least! Their attackers simply deemed that they had money and they wanted it. And because of the attackers' greed they broke into the house and raped two of the women inside and killed all three of the women by burning them and also burned the house down. They did nothing wrong to the attackers they were victims.

Your reasoning has no room in an imperfect world. It doesn't even had room in a perfect world because in a perfect world there would be no vengeance and so you could do harm to person B but they would wish no ill will against you in turn.

If you would simply address my second post you'd find that I have already brought up this entire topic and proved it with scripture...

--

And did Drew just respond to one of my posts?! Because if so then he ought to go look at my second post on the first page because it has scripture that STILL has not be responded to and it is really hurting your side of the argument.

That's your own opinion. My A, B, analogy is without fault in both worlds.
Why do I need a C?
If you need a C all because you do not trust B, then fine for you. I do not need a C because I am ok with B.
-
-
Let brotherly love continue...perhaps the reason B comes for your wealth is becauyou refused to help the needy :D
+
+
Wait a second...you sound so security-conscious! Are you afraid to even die now? I guess a person who dies now stands a better chance to make a better mansion in heaven. Why sound so security-conscious....just kidding
+
+
We are two individuals with differing opinions.
I do it with science now.
Drew did it with Math... Do with Newton's laws of motion.
+
+
We sound so Newtonic - 3rd law:
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction: A does B well and B does a well and vice versa.

*
First:
Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.
-
The only reason you need C is that you have done something wrong. Do not use external force, Pard. Do not change the relationship between A and B.

-


--
--
I will look at your second post

 

[Classik]

Pard I am just getting around to reading this. I have had many arguments on this board since 2005 about this. And I still say if they break in my house and try to hurt us, and I have a gun and I can get to it, I will kill you if I have to. I will not let you come in my house or my mom's if I am over there, and let you rape or hurt her. And same goes for my house, because I will shoot you and you will be laying down wearing a suit.

And when the bad guy comes do not be deaf to that Still Small Voice that tells you: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ JESUS.

 

[Classik]

Classik

Regarding Jesus telling his disciples to go out and buy swords, and then Peter's attack on the soldiers who came to arrest Jesus...

I believe that these two events get merged a lot when the discussion of Christian self-defense comes up. I'm not exactly sure why.

First, Jesus is about to leave and Jesus knows that his followers are going to be persecuted greatly.

He reminds them that He had sent them out before with nothing, and yet all their needs were taken care of. Now He is telling them, you'll need money, you'll need a knapsack (carried provisions), you'll need a sword. There is a sea-change about to take place in the disciples lives, and Jesus is preparing them for it.

As for Peter striking the soldier...Jesus put a stop to that because they were there to do God's will...arrest Jesus. Peter was acting contrary to what needed to take place...

This doesn't negate what Christ said earlier. They would have need of money, provisions and protection. But, Peter jumped the gun and started using the sword inappropriately and the lesson was that we need to be in God's will, whether using our money, provisions and protection...or whether deciding to not use these resources.

Is that a favourite verse among Americans?
Kidding:D

 

[Classik]

Exodus 22:2-3 tells us "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

Is that your concern?

 

[Pard]

Let brotherly love continue...perhaps the reason B comes for your wealth is becauyou refused to help the needy

And what the woman who gets raped while she is walking the two blocks from her work to her house... she some how deserves to be raped because maybe she wasn't spreading around the sex? Is that it? Her being raped by a complete stranger is her fault because she wasn't willing to whore herself on the street?

And those the 13 year old who was raped and then burned alive she deserved it because her parents didn't just out right give their hard earned money away? And her sister who was tied to her bed and covered in gas and then had a match thrown on her she deserved it? And her mother who was also raped before being covered in gas she also deserved it did she? And did the husband deserve getting beaten with a baseball bat and tied up in the basement? And did he deserve to lose his entire family and all his worldly possessions? You are telling me right now that they all deserved what they got because they didn't give ENOUGH of their hard earned money to a bunch of low life scum bags?

And the man who held his family hostage... if it wasn't for the police he would have killed his wife and two children. That was his intent after all. It took half of my town's police department to stop the man from committing a triple homicide. Was that wife holding money out from her husband? Or maybe it was sex huh? How about the kids why did they deserve death?

That's your own opinion. My A, B, analogy is without fault in both worlds.
Why do I need a C?
If you need a C all because you do trust B, then fine for you. I do not need a C because I am ok with B.

Do you know everyone in the world? How about everyone in your hemisphere? And how about everyone in your country? How about everyone in your state/providence/whatever? And do you know everyone in your town? How about everyone in your neighborhood? And do you know everyone on your street?

Until you can say that you not only know ever single person in the entire world and that you have such a relationship with them that you can be sure that they'd never even wish to hurt a hair on your head your logic cannot ever work.

And even then it doesn't factor in the 688 wives who were killed by their husband last year in America. (I bet they were holding out on sex huh? Probably deserved it huh?) How about the 146 husbands who were killed by their wives? Were they holding out on sex? Maybe they deserved it? And the 1367 children who were killed by their parents did they deserve it also? Did they forget to clean their rooms? Or was it the dishes? Maybe the lawn didn't get mowed in a timely manor? Hmm?

Is that you concern?

Yup. Maybe you didn't read the passage. Maybe you ought to read it again...

It becomes my concern when a low life scum bag breaks into my house. And then after that it becomes the coroners concern because they'll be dead... And I will be able to go back to bed. And I will sleep soundly knowing that I did right not only by the laws of the land but by the laws of my God.

If you truly have no wish to defend yourself than that is your own problem and I feel sorry for you because you must obviously hold yourself in low regard. But don't try to take that God given right from those of us who love the lives we were given by God.

 

[Classik]

Let brotherly love continue...perhaps the reason B comes for your wealth is becauyou refused to help the needy :D

You know quite well that was a J-O-K-E

And what the woman who gets raped while she is walking the two blocks from her work to her house... she some how deserves to be raped because maybe she wasn't spreading around the sex? Is that it? Her being raped by a complete stranger is her fault because she wasn't willing to whore herself on the street?

And those the 13 year old who was raped and then burned alive she deserved it because her parents didn't just out right give their hard earned money away? And her sister who was tied to her bed and covered in gas and then had a match thrown on her she deserved it? And her mother who was also raped before being covered in gas she also deserved it did she? And did the husband deserve getting beaten with a baseball bat and tied up in the basement? And did he deserve to lose his entire family and all his worldly possessions? You are telling me right now that they all deserved what they got because they didn't give ENOUGH of their hard earned money to a bunch of low life scum bags?

And the man who held his family hostage... if it wasn't for the police he would have killed his wife and two children. That was his intent after all. It took half of my town's police department to stop the man from committing a triple homicide. Was that wife holding money out from her husband? Or maybe it was sex huh? How about the kids why did they deserve death?

Do you know everyone in the world? How about everyone in your hemisphere? And how about everyone in your country? How about everyone in your state/providence/whatever? And do you know everyone in your town? How about everyone in your neighborhood? And do you know everyone on your street?

Until you can say that you not only know ever single person in the entire world and that you have such a relationship with them that you can be sure that they'd never even wish to hurt a hair on your head your logic cannot ever work.

And even then it doesn't factor in the 688 wives who were killed by their husband last year in America. (I bet they were holding out on sex huh? Probably deserved it huh?) How about the 146 husbands who were killed by their wives? Were they holding out on sex? Maybe they deserved it? And the 1367 children who were killed by their parents did they deserve it also? Did they forget to clean their rooms? Or was it the dishes? Maybe the lawn didn't get mowed in a timely manor? Hmm?

Yup. Maybe you didn't read the passage. Maybe you ought to read it again...

It becomes my concern when a low life scum bag breaks into my house. And then after that it becomes the coroners concern because they'll be dead... And I will be able to go back to bed. And I will sleep soundly knowing that I did right not only by the laws of the land but by the laws of my God.

If you truly have no wish to defend yourself than that is your own problem and I feel sorry for you because you must obviously hold yourself in low regard. But don't try to take that God given right from those of us who love the lives we were given by God.

Really?

 

[Classik]

Yup. Maybe you didn't read the passage. Maybe you ought to read it again...

It becomes my concern when a low life scum bag breaks into my house. And then after that it becomes the coroners concern because they'll be dead... And I will be able to go back to bed. And I will sleep soundly knowing that I did right not only by the laws of the land but by the laws of my God.

Old testament stuff! - Then if the bad guy comes in the morning?

Not worth frothing for.
A NT stuff should be more convincing...that is, if you'd find any.

 

[Lewis]

People seem to get it twisted, God does not want you to stand there and take a beat down and let your wife and daughters get raped and killed. In my mind and even Biblically you are a coward. God put you in charge to look after your family and to protect them. Not standing there praying while the intruder rapes your wife, and you can do something about it.

 

[Pard]

First no I didn't know you were joking. It's not something normal people joke about. At least the people I associate myself with don't joke about a triple homicide/double rape/arson.

Old testament stuff! - Then if the bad guy comes in the morning?

Not worth frothing for.
A NT stuff should be more convincing...that is, if you'd find any.

So you are really putting one thing God said before another? Honestly? Super serious or are you joking again?

--

Lewis I'd tend to agree.

 

[turnorburn]

I've always believed the Lord protects us wherever we are to doubt this is like slapping Him in the face hasn't He been slapped enough by the world lets not go there too.

Psalm 127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

127:2 It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.

127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.

127:5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

turnorburn