Our Jewish Brethren

Levi · Feb 13, 2012

Its about conscience.

"One man esteems a certain day as being Holy but another esteems all days as being the same".

The law is still there and it still stands but each man does as is according to the measure of faith that has been given to him and where he finds himself when he is saved.

The circumcision that counts is of the heart, there are those that are circumcised of the flesh but not of the heart.

It is by no accident that the law of Moses is in the Bible, there are much deeper spiritual aspects of the law than just surface traditions I'm sure you know this quite well and many people would have sat in fascination as they have listened to preachers unpack these.

I have been absolutely fascinated by Messianic Jews who have preached on the true meanings of some of these laws.

The weightier demands of the law that Jesus spoke of to the Pharisees when he said they should have practiced the later without leaving the former undone.

Judaism has it wrong, observance of the literal regulations means nothing without understanding and obeying the true meanings.

jasoncran · Feb 13, 2012

Levi said:
Its about conscience.

"One man esteems a certain day as being Holy but another esteems all days as being the same".

The law is still there and it still stands but each man does as is according to the measure of faith that has been given to him and where he finds himself when he is saved.

The circumcision that counts is of the heart, there are those that are circumcised of the flesh but not of the heart.

It is by no accident that the law of Moses is in the Bible, there are much deeper spiritual aspects of the law than just surface traditions I'm sure you know this quite well and many people would have sat in fascination as they have listened to preachers unpack these.

I have been absolutely fascinated by Messianic Jews who have preached on the true meanings of some of these laws.

The weightier demands of the law that Jesus spoke of to the Pharisees when he said they should have practiced the later without leaving the former undone.

Judaism has it wrong, observance of the literal regulations means nothing without understanding and obeying the true meanings.

its still not for the gentile church. we arent under it. so we should kill adulters, homosexuals? liars and athiests and false prophets and witches?

that is in the law.

do you attend any messianic temple? i know of some that do and they do make it important the the law isnt binding on the church.

Danus · Feb 13, 2012

Just a little more info for anyone wanting to dig into this deeper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism

jasoncran · Feb 13, 2012

i kind was alluding to that. trust me dont get me started on the rcc and how they perverted the gospel. christ didnt come to start another priest hood. all have acess to the throne room. we dont need to go to a priest to recieve absolution.

ivorhughjarse · Feb 13, 2012

Levi said:
Its about conscience.

"One man esteems a certain day as being Holy but another esteems all days as being the same".

The law is still there and it still stands but each man does as is according to the measure of faith that has been given to him and where he finds himself when he is saved.

The circumcision that counts is of the heart, there are those that are circumcised of the flesh but not of the heart.

It is by no accident that the law of Moses is in the Bible, there are much deeper spiritual aspects of the law than just surface traditions I'm sure you know this quite well and many people would have sat in fascination as they have listened to preachers unpack these.

I have been absolutely fascinated by Messianic Jews who have preached on the true meanings of some of these laws.

The weightier demands of the law that Jesus spoke of to the Pharisees when he said they should have practiced the later without leaving the former undone.

Judaism has it wrong, observance of the literal regulations means nothing without understanding and obeying the true meanings.

That is the point where i am at in my walk....thank you for making it so simple, I have listened to many Christians and I read over the bible and nothing comes close a skilled teacher who is a messianic Jew as he unpacks what is behind the simplest verses in the bible..there is such a rich supply of spiritual food that without an background understanding of what God set up in the traditions for that nation. If the nation at the time did not know everything lead to Christ and we today are not bothered over such matters because it was for God's people back then,... who will benefit for understanding these marvels...I don't say lets go back to law but i do say lets not disregard what God sets up as if it were rubbish...at least not without looking into it first from the background of that nation

Last year i was drawn to attend a Passover with some Jewish people who had come to Christ...the event did not do anything for me but my understanding of the various foods and rituals and how they all relate and tie into the Christ...astounded me......my hunger for this type of understanding means that i look for similar teachings and thats where I sit on things at this moment.

If it's not your walk then that's fine too

ChristianNationalist · Feb 13, 2012

There's nothing supernatural about the Jews survival over the last 2000 years. They spread everywhere and it would only be possible to completely destroy them if every land simultaneously decided to do so. The only attempt at destroying them ever made was in Nazi Germany, prior to that discrimination against them took the form of your standard oppression and several banishments. Their survival through medieval Europe is no different than the Coptic Church's survival in an extremely hostile Egypt. I suggest you research the brutal oppression suffered by the Coptics.

The concept that Jews are God's chosen people is simply Jewish Supremicism, it's no different than the supremism claimed by neo-nazis. This idea of supremism is behind the brutal oppression of non-Jews in the modern state of Israel.

jasoncran · Feb 13, 2012

evidence of said supression?

and if having a land that was once yours and also hiring and prefering the tribal members then lets call all indian lands also oppressors because they do just that.

work at one and even if you are american and not an indian you can loose your job if an indian needs one. my step-daughter has been there.

Jethro Bodine · Feb 13, 2012

Christ will return to earth where?

1) New York City

2) London England

3) Mecca, Saudi Arabia

4) Toledo, OH

ChristianNationalist · Feb 13, 2012

jasoncran said:
evidence of said supression?

and if having a land that was once yours and also hiring and prefering the tribal members then lets call all indian lands also oppressors because they do just that.

work at one and even if you are american and not an indian you can loose your job if an indian needs one. my step-daughter has been there.

I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of America.

As for oppression in Israel (I assume that's to what you refer). How about a non-Jewish man going to prison for 18 months for having sex with a Jewish woman?

Palestinian jailed for rape after claiming to be Jewish.

A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with an Israeli woman who believed he was Jewish because he introduced himself as "Daniel".

A conviction for rape by deception on the grounds of racial misrepresentation is believed to be internationally unprecedented, according to British legal experts.

Asked whether his client was the victim of racial discrimination, Mr Aladdin said he "would rather not comment". Others, however, were scathing.
Gideon Levy, a leading liberal commentator, said: "I would like to raise only one question with the judge. What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman. Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not."
Israeli human rights activists said that Kashur's actions reflected the deceits many Palestinians practise when in Israel in an attempt to avoid official and private prejudice because of their background.
"It is very well known that Israeli-Palestinians living in Israel disguise themselves," said Leah Tsemel, a human-rights lawyer. "You change your accent and you change your dress because if you look like an Arab you face harassment.

Click to expand...

Or this.

Or this.

Or this.

I hope nobody takes this as a condemnation of the Jewish people, or even all Israelis. But the Israeli government and many extremist Jews within Israel act brutally towards non-Jews.

for_his_glory · Feb 13, 2012

Are we not all of a Spiritual Israel being joined together as one in Christ as not all people of the literal Israel are Hebrew descent as not all of Americans are of English descent?

I'm third generation Romanian and Portuguese on my mothers side as they were and some still are RC and German on my Fathers side which are Protestant (I could have my own Holy war with myself LOL), but that was my ancestry which has nothing to do with who I am in Christ.

I think it's a beautiful thing no matter what the background of a person is, but to only recognize through faith who Messiah is as we know through the word of God that Jesus is the only way to the Father that separates us from those parts of the law that has already been fulfilled.

Do we as a Gentile nation follow any of the 613 laws, or were they for the house of Israel only? Are we grafted into a Jewish vine of Religion and traditions or are we grafted into that which is Christ himself who has redeemed us from the curse of the law, but not all law has been fulfilled yet.
(Let's not make this a law vs. grace because that is not where I am going with this) Just saying it's a beautiful thing when we find and recognize Messiah which has come, and gone and will return again.

Danus · Feb 13, 2012

for_his_glory said:
Are we not all of a Spiritual Israel being joined together as one in Christ as not all people of the literal Israel are Hebrew descent as not all of Americans are of English descent?
.................................
I think it's a beautiful thing no matter what the background of a person is, but to only recognize through faith who Messiah is as we know through the word of God that Jesus is the only way to the Father that separates us from those parts of the law that has already been fulfilled.

Do we as a Gentile nation follow any of the 613 laws, or were they for the house of Israel only? Are we grafted into a Jewish vine of Religion and traditions or are we grafted into that which is Christ himself who has redeemed us from the curse of the law, but not all law has been fulfilled yet.

This is one of those sneaky threads that could be placed in End times or the AP section, and in my opinion not the best for general discussion area.

Bottom line, this topic is about Supersessionism. There are many theological views on it and many hold to a combination of views.

jasoncran · Feb 13, 2012

ChristianNationalist said:
I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of America.

As for oppression in Israel (I assume that's to what you refer). How about a non-Jewish man going to prison for 18 months for having sex with a Jewish woman?

Palestinian jailed for rape after claiming to be Jewish.

so america is oppressive because of this
http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au...rl-sex-consensual-accused-claims/2113713.aspx

Or this.

Or this.

Or this.

I hope nobody takes this as a condemnation of the Jewish people, or even all Israelis. But the Israeli government and many extremist Jews within Israel act brutally towards non-Jews.

so i guess america is oprresive too. sure isreal isnt perfect. it wasnt that long ago that blacks were hung in this so called christian nation for crimes they didnt commit.

so it should be a christian state eh with only christians on the holy sites? the jews have no rights there as its not there heritage.

jasoncran · Feb 13, 2012

i have never denied that they are racist jews but you implied all of them are.

The concept that Jews are God's chosen people is simply Jewish Supremicism, it's no different than the supremism claimed by neo-nazis. This idea of supremism is behind the brutal oppression of non-Jews in the modern state of Israel

and that middle link has the goverment siding with the messanic jews. so god didnt mean this to the jews(it never could be taken as the way the modern american chruch does as the context its in has the implacation if isreal rebels)

christians dont have a land promise. within certain boundaries.

2 chronicles 7:14

14If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

paul said this in romans 11

Romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him

note verse one, hath god cast away his people, god calls isreal his firstborn.

so you dont believe that the american indians should have nations that they rightfully had in america? that we were wrong when we took land from them that wasnt done by treaty or by attrition in war.

ie the cherokee, the seminole(we forced them into florida when spain had it). sorry we should allow them.im sure if i kicked you out of your home and the whole goverment of the us allowed it you would call it injustice.

ChristianNationalist · Feb 14, 2012

jasoncran said:
so i guess america is oprresive too. sure isreal isnt perfect. it wasnt that long ago that blacks were hung in this so called christian nation for crimes they didnt commit.

so it should be a christian state eh with only christians on the holy sites? the jews have no rights there as its not there heritage.

It actually was quite a long time ago, well before I was born. These things are going on in Israel right now. I wouldn't be nearly as hard on them if it wasn't for the absolute hypocrisy of those who support Israel. They'll scream till they're blue in the face about how we have to be inclusive and we need to accomodate other faiths and other cultures but will turn right around and support Israel in their oppression of non-Jews.

And what's with the straw man, where did I say Israel should be a Christian state? Right now it's a majority Jewish state and I have no problem with them building their nation around Judaism, that doesn't mean they need to act brutally towards non-Jews. If and when the powers that be allow Christians to once again have Christian nations (as they allow Jews to have in Israel and Musims to have in all Muslim nations) I would also denounce brutality towards non-Christians in said Christian nation.

jasoncran · Feb 14, 2012

odd, you say that we should enact laws to make a christian nation.

Re: Genetic evidence confrims that European peoples are Lost Tribes of Israel

Originally Posted by Stormcrow
Not at all. But the way you want to get there - through a nationalist political movement - is not the way God wants us to get there.

Spiritual problems require spiritual solutions: not political ones.

There is no other way to get there, are the powers that be going to simply change their minds? No, the only way to see change happen is to make it happen. A political movement is the only way we could ever see it happen, just as political movements established the Christian nations of the past.

Christ's church - His body - is universal in nature, cutting across all boundaries of race and national origin. To be a Christian is to be part of His universal body.

Nationalism, on the other hand, is a political movement that identifies itself in terms of the nation. Germany's "National Socialism" was a uniquely German brand of Marxism, because it viewed Germany - the nation and its people - above every other political or social consideration.

Christ's kingdom is not a Nationalist entity, ergo "Christian Nationalist" is an oxymoron.

I understand that argument, but the universality of Christ's church does not negate the rights of a people to live by God's law. It does not negate the right of good Christian people to be able to allow their children to watch television without being bombarded with sex. It does not negate the right of good Christian children to pray in school, as they did for generations before the rise of this Godless in the West. It does not negate the right to raise a cross to commemorate the dead.

The West is now a place where we are forced to expose our children daily to the care of vipers who teach them Christianity is evil. They teach them that Christians have done nothing but attack innocent non-Christians and abused them, they even teach them that we were the aggressors in the Crusades. And we are expected to just take it, we should not just take it.

Many people say you can just home school children, but that isn't an option for most. Most families require two incomes just to stay afloat. And most families cannot afford to send their children to private school, so we must expose our children to the serpents. I remember well the lessons they taught me, how they turned me from a Christian child into an atheist teen. I found my way back to God as a man but many do not. Even now I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, and even pagans; I know these friends will ultimately suffer because they have been turned against God and I mourn for them though they live still.

so if we allow only christian laws and lawmakers how then would said christian exist? it cant as a jew isnt going to support a pro jesus idea. nor would a muslim that is why the first amendment exists.

ChristianNationalist · Feb 14, 2012

jasoncran said:
odd, you say that we should enact laws to make a christian nation.
[/INDENT]

so if we allow only christian laws and lawmakers how then would said christian exist? it cant as a jew isnt going to support a pro jesus idea. nor would a muslim that is why the first amendment exists.

Those words don't make sense. What Christian?

jasoncran · Feb 14, 2012

ChristianNationalist said:
Those words don't make sense. What Christian?

you are for enacting laws that make sins illegal, ie porn, homosexuality, abortion, and all manner of filth right?

these are your words

I understand that argument, but the universality of Christ's church does not negate the rights of a people to live by God's law. It does not negate the right of good Christian people to be able to allow their children to watch television without being bombarded with sex. It does not negate the right of good Christian children to pray in school, as they did for generations before the rise of this Godless in the West. It does not negate the right to raise a cross to commemorate the dead.

The West is now a place where we are forced to expose our children daily to the care of vipers who teach them Christianity is evil. They teach them that Christians have done nothing but attack innocent non-Christians and abused them, they even teach them that we were the aggressors in the Crusades. And we are expected to just take it, we should not just take it.

Many people say you can just home school children, but that isn't an option for most. Most families require two incomes just to stay afloat. And most families cannot afford to send their children to private school, so we must expose our children to the serpents. I remember well the lessons they taught me, how they turned me from a Christian child into an atheist teen. I found my way back to God as a man but many do not. Even now I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, and even pagans; I know these friends will ultimately suffer because they have been turned against God and I mourn for them though they live still.

ChristianNationalist · Feb 14, 2012

jasoncran said:
you are for enacting laws that make sins illegal, ie porn, homosexuality, abortion, and all manner of filth right?

these are your words

And what's your point? Is it that it's the same as imprisoning someone because they had sex with a Jew? Where do I say it's ok to imprison someone for having sex with a Christian?

jasoncran · Feb 14, 2012

you are worried that christians might sin and that sins about you implied a theocracy.

we have since the founders never been a theocracy. so passing laws as you say wont work. so now retract that statment. so its ok then for consenting adults to make those filth or is it not.

i hate where the media has gone but we cant convince by law that its bad, only by winning souls will america change.

surely you are aware of the history of this country and how we havent had the cleanest record at times.

i could say that constution at its presentation was only applicable to white males. its not far from the truth but thank god that good men and women dared to change the wrongs in america.

beginning with slavery, womans rights and jim crow laws.

i dont agree with gay rights or abortion but laws agaisnt that wont stop it. i vote for those candidates that are against that but im not going to say that they will stop it. if someone wants to commit a crime or a sin they will and not even god can stop them.

if he does stop people from sinning do show me , i havent heard of it.

ChristianNationalist · Feb 14, 2012

Why exactly would a theocracy be required? We had morality laws and this country's policies were based upon Christian doctrine for almost 200 years before it got all mucked up. It worked fine without the necessity of theocracy.

You don't need to stop all sinners, you only need to control those who would entice them into sin. Before the serpents began whispering in our children's ears that virgins were losers our teen pregnancy rates and our std rates were far lower. It wasn't illegal for teens to have premarital sex, it didn't need to be. Now we empower those who would corrupt them and demonize those who would stand between our youth and those who would destroy them. We have become a sick and decadent culture.

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