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[_ Old Earth _] Pangea ?

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Sorry about that my wheel chair bottom fell out so I've got it Jerry rigged..:) When i talked to Donald some 40 years ago he told me in order to get a better understanding of the filmstrip that i should read his book "The Biblical Flood And The Ice Epoch" I'm not much when it comes to reading scientific stuff so i just stuck to showing the video.. Here's a portion from that book..


WHY write a book on the Biblical Flood? Has not this subject been largely relegated to academic limbo? Has not the Biblical Flood been considered by some authorities to be an event which never occurred--except perhaps in the imaginations of the ancients? Haven't other authorities considered it to be a historical fact but yet a strictly localized phenomenon? And yet has it not been considered by some others to have been a global cataclysm? While some have considered the Flood to have occurred around 10,000 or 20,000 B.C., have not others placed it at about 2,500 B.C.? Of what significance is this variation of 5,000, 10,000 or 20,000 years? Which of these views, if any, is correct, and what are the implications contained therein?

One hundred and fifty years ago, numerous controversies clouded the academic horizon, controversies which involved the leading scholars of that day. Fossils were being found in every country in Europe. Some were discovered high in the Alps, and others were unearthed below sea level, deep in German or Welsh coal mines. The fossils included remains of marine animals, mammoths, bison, giant birds, dinosaurs, exotic vegetation, and many other hard-to-classify forms. Some were tiny; many were huge. There were so many different forms and sizes of fossils that their classification became quite an art. Some were being found practically in the back yards of the leading academic figures of that day.

These abundant fossil finds demanded an explanation. Many, such as Cuvier, felt that some sort of gigantic, watery cataclysm or cataclysms had indeed engulfed the past. This possibility immediately suggested the Biblical Flood. Yet others cast about for an alternative explanation. Modern humanists, increasingly anti-Genesis in outlook, were growing in numbers and in positions of importance, especially in academic circles. To Voltaire, for instance, any mention of the Flood was offensive; it implied too much of God, or of judgment, or of the Judeo-Christian heritage. Despite evidence left by fossils and sedimentary strata, as well as literary heritages, a Biblical Flood was taboo to him, and to many others.

Voltaire was somewhat typical of the anti-spiritual humanists of his day. He was thoroughly anti-Christian and anti-Judaistic. He felt that the burial of the Bible in general, and the Genesis record in particular, would be a great service to mankind. Yet during his lifetime, most natural scientists leaned toward catastrophism. They mostly revered the Judeo-Christian heritage.

But anti-spiritual humanists, like Voltaire or Kant, usually applauded anything which tended to discredit the Genesis record of catastrophes. Thus, the doctrine of uniformitarianism was born and nurtured from the mother principle of humanism, as was the daughter principle of evolution--merely biological uniformitarianism. Evolution and uniformitarianism practically required agnosticism, and they made atheism increasingly respectable, even virile. The viewpoints of the early catastrophists became outmoded and were gradually discarded, and then they were all but forgotten. Thus our century has received an almost pure heritage of uniformitarianism, and as a consequence, is leaving a legacy of anti-spiritual humanism in various forms.1

Modern uniformitarianism was conceived 200 years ago, and about 100 years ago it became the dominant theory of Earth history. Its advocates maintained that our planet and our solar system have had a serene past in terms of multiplied millions of years. No great, sudden cataclysms ever occurred. But is this theory defensible in the light of new evidence? Was it ever really defensible in the light of former evidence?

There are abundant evidences of a watery, global cataclysm -- evidences which are not easily refuted. They are so universal, so astounding, and so inter-related that they require re-examination. How is it explained, for instance, that ancient peoples, from six separate continents, almost invariably had a Flood tradition? Why is it that ancient peoples almost always had a pantheon of sky-gods and traditions of celestial chaos? Why is it that ancient peoples all over the world, in diverse cultures possessing independent traditions, yet possessed similar traditions of cataclysms containing similar motifs? And if the ancients simply happened to have comparable or corresponding hallucinations, why, then, does our solar system also contain abundant evidences of historical astral chaos? And is it possible that our Earth could have escaped this? Re-examination of these universal evidences and their implications leads to a serious and careful consideration of the Flood catastrophe.

The evidences of a global Flood are sound and they increasingly demonstrate with drama that worldwide catastrophes have occurred. However, the Biblical Flood is far from a fully developed subject. Newer circumstances and additional evidence requires a more comprehensive review. Renewed analysis and synthesis are needed. Uniformitarianism needs to be thoroughly questioned.

Today, humanism--the adoration of homo sapiens--remains largely the attitude of our scholarly classes. This spirit of our age is reflected in our philosophies, our principles, our values and our deeds. We are asking if the humanistic viewpoint is really mature. Therefore, the objective of this work is to achieve the most critical, penetrating, systematic, analytical, and synthetical examination of the uniformitarianism which has been accomplished to date. The objective is to bring this modern hypothesis, almost a sacred cow, into the arena of test and trial; your writer is the matador and you, the reader, are the spectator.

This labor has been dedicated to young scholars. Dare to think, and to re-think. Have the courage to cheerfully challenge the current generation in its disappointing crescendo of turmoil and trouble. To use an old Latin phrase--sapere aude. Investigate the history of our solar system during the last 10,000 years, especially that of our fragile sphere. Examine the many traditions of the ancients. Review the magnificent job of engraving and etching that has occurred upon the surface of our swirling sphere.2 Examine these evidences carefully. Prepare to draw conclusions that may seem at first somewhat amazing.

http://www.creationism.org/patten/PattenBiblFlood/PattenBiblFlood01.htm

tob

Why is this in this thread? Is this thread not about Pangea?
 
WHY write a book on the Biblical Flood?
Well you actually posted something, let's see if it stands up to criticism.

These abundant fossil finds demanded an explanation.
Indeed they do.

Many, such as Cuvier, felt that some sort of gigantic, watery cataclysm or cataclysms had indeed engulfed the past. This possibility immediately suggested the Biblical Flood.
Catastrophism was indeed popular at that time, but was quickly refuted after Georges Cuvier's death. He was right about his observations about there being extinction events, there are just multiple events of that kind.

I love how this writer immediately finds some person who had a valid scientific opinion at the time, and then hijacks it to support the "Biblical" flood.

Yet others cast about for an alternative explanation.
Perhaps because Catastrophism was very flawed...

Modern humanists, increasingly anti-Genesis in outlook,
LOL, I love the fallacy this guy is building. What does it matter if they 1) didn't support the literal interpretation of Genesis, or 2) were humanists (which is a Christian creation). The validity of the arguments should be addressed, not an attempt to create a genetic fallacy.

were growing in numbers and in positions of importance, especially in academic circles. To Voltaire, for instance, any mention of the Flood was offensive; it implied too much of God, or of judgment, or of the Judeo-Christian heritage.
Voltaire was a historian and philosopher, not a scientist. An especially irrelevant construction of the genetic fallacy.

Voltaire was somewhat typical of the anti-spiritual humanists of his day. He was thoroughly anti-Christian and anti-Judaistic. He felt that the burial of the Bible in general, and the Genesis record in particular, would be a great service to mankind. Yet during his lifetime, most natural scientists leaned toward catastrophism. They mostly revered the Judeo-Christian heritage.
This is a novel idea... Christians who believed in the literal interpretation of Genesis latched on to the idea of Catastrophism.. Surely it was for it's explanatory merit.

What actually is the case is that creationists will often latch onto any "life-line" in the world of science to try and prop up their arguments. Catastrophisms defeat demonstrated the future irrelevance of the position as it now stands.

But anti-spiritual humanists, like Voltaire or Kant,
Both of which were not scientists, but philosophers... and Kant actually was a Theist.

usually applauded anything which tended to discredit the Genesis record of catastrophes. Thus, the doctrine of uniformitarianism was born and nurtured from the mother principle of humanism, as was the daughter principle of evolution--merely biological uniformitarianism.
This is really his argument? To try to convince people that uniformitarianism comes from a godless humanistic philosophy and is therefore wrong?

This is the genetic fallacy. Terrible argumentation.

Evolution and uniformitarianism practically required agnosticism, and they made atheism increasingly respectable, even virile.
Except it doesn't.

The viewpoints of the early catastrophists became outmoded and were gradually discarded, and then they were all but forgotten. Thus our century has received an almost pure heritage of uniformitarianism, and as a consequence, is leaving a legacy of anti-spiritual humanism in various forms.
They weren't discarded because of some kind of atheistic conspiracy, they were discarded because new evidence contradicted and disproved the theory.

Modern uniformitarianism was conceived 200 years ago, and about 100 years ago it became the dominant theory of Earth history. Its advocates maintained that our planet and our solar system have had a serene past in terms of multiplied millions of years. No great, sudden cataclysms ever occurred. But is this theory defensible in the light of new evidence? Was it ever really defensible in the light of former evidence?
Wow this guys is dishonest, it is absolutely not the consensus position that no great and sudden cataclysms ever occurred. Ever heard of the extinction of the dinosaurs? It has been a relatively slow and gradual process that is punctuated by cataclysmic natural events, such as a meteor impact.

There are abundant evidences of a watery, global cataclysm -- evidences which are not easily refuted. They are so universal, so astounding, and so inter-related that they require re-examination. How is it explained, for instance, that ancient peoples, from six separate continents, almost invariably had a Flood tradition?
That's his piece of "evidence" that he wants to start with? Floods are an entirely natural phenomenon, and for those who were not influenced by the flood tradition of Genesis (such as the African myth), it is perfectly plausible that these people interpreted floods as being a manifestation of God's wrath.

Ancient people tended to interpret any kind of "cataclysmic" event as being some kind of ill will toward them, from some divine being.

Why is it that ancient peoples almost always had a pantheon of sky-gods and traditions of celestial chaos?
I'm waiting for the scientific evidence... This is speculation and conjecture, which is rather ill founded at that.

Why is it that ancient peoples all over the world, in diverse cultures possessing independent traditions, yet possessed similar traditions of cataclysms containing similar motifs? And if the ancients simply happened to have comparable or corresponding hallucinations, why, then, does our solar system also contain abundant evidences of historical astral chaos? And is it possible that our Earth could have escaped this?
It hasn't escaped it...

Though it seems this guy is more so willing to base his scientific opinions off of discoveries made up by ancient people, rather than rigorous scientific efforts.

Re-examination of these universal evidences and their implications leads to a serious and careful consideration of the Flood catastrophe.
Absurd..

The evidences of a global Flood are sound and they increasingly demonstrate with drama that worldwide catastrophes have occurred. However, the Biblical Flood is far from a fully developed subject. Newer circumstances and additional evidence requires a more comprehensive review. Renewed analysis and synthesis are needed. Uniformitarianism needs to be thoroughly questioned.
Of course it does.. because it doesn't support his religious dogma. Confirmation bias right here.

Today, humanism--the adoration of homo sapiens--remains largely the attitude of our scholarly classes. This spirit of our age is reflected in our philosophies, our principles, our values and our deeds. We are asking if the humanistic viewpoint is really mature. Therefore, the objective of this work is to achieve the most critical, penetrating, systematic, analytical, and synthetical examination of the uniformitarianism which has been accomplished to date. The objective is to bring this modern hypothesis, almost a sacred cow, into the arena of test and trial; your writer is the matador and you, the reader, are the spectator.
People worship uniformitarianism? It's always interesting to me when people blinded by dogma accuse others of the same offense.

This labor has been dedicated to young scholars. Dare to think, and to re-think. Have the courage to cheerfully challenge the current generation in its disappointing crescendo of turmoil and trouble. To use an old Latin phrase--sapere aude. Investigate the history of our solar system during the last 10,000 years, especially that of our fragile sphere. Examine the many traditions of the ancients. Review the magnificent job of engraving and etching that has occurred upon the surface of our swirling sphere.2 Examine these evidences carefully. Prepare to draw conclusions that may seem at first somewhat amazing.
Is this actually compelling to you?

Not a SHRED of scientific evidence presented. Conjecture, fallacies and bias. That's all I read.
 
I've debated you in the past when i asked how Jesus fit into your doctrine of evolution then you made a statement.. i quoted the statement exactly as you had written it.. and then you denied ever hearing such a statement and you were the one that made the statement..

Now would be the time to substantiate that accusation. Show us.

adding anything else at this time would be mocking God and his creation which I'm beginning to think you enjoy

I don't think personal attacks are going to help your credibility here. You're frustrated, perhaps. But that's the very time in which you should stop and think carefully what you say. That never goes away.
 
Wow this guys is dishonest, it is absolutely not the consensus position that no great and sudden cataclysms ever occurred. Ever heard of the extinction of the dinosaurs? It has been a relatively slow and gradual process that is punctuated by cataclysmic natural events, such as a meteor impact.

Of course. As usual, the professional creationist's argument depends on a misrepresentation of science.

Derek Ager has noted that "geologists do not deny uniformitarianism in its true sense, that is to say, of interpreting the past by means of the processes that are seen going on at the present day, so long as we remember that the periodic catastrophe is one of those processes. Those periodic catastrophes make more showing in the stratigraphical record than we have hitherto assumed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism

Even Hutton and Lyell acknowledged the fact of catastrophic events such as floods, volcanic eruptions, and earthquakes.


 
"Oh, we can't tell you what it's about. You have to watch the video."

If you don't know enough to even tell us what it's about, what makes you think it's right?
 
Like i said watch the video.. :yes

tob
Let's look into the video a little bit..

You said it was how long?
1/2 an hour is all it takes..
When in actuality it is 60 minutes.. 1 hour.

This is a video adaptation of a documentary filmstrip presenting evidence that, less than 5000 years ago, a stray planet from deep space, along with its tiny moon of ice, nearly collided with Earth. An analysis is made of the gravitational forces that would have flexed the Earth’s crust, creating volcanic ruptures, mountain ranges, and oceanic tides of such heights as to cover almost all of the Earth’s land surface. Human survivors, indeed, would have been few, and countless species of magnificent prehistoric animals would have perished, not due to failure to adapt, as is commonly claimed, but simply because they failed to find high ground. It would be difficult to enter into an informed discussion on such topics as Earth History, Geology, the Biblical Flood, Evolution, or Creation itself without knowledge of the facts and theories presented in this program. 60-minute video.
Source: http://realityzone.com/catfromspac.html

Also from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Cataclysm-From-Space-2800-VHS/dp/B00005RDV0
Run Time: 60 minutes

It also is not free to watch, and costs the following amount:

Cataclysm From Space (video)
DV25C_when_purchased_alone
trans_1x1.gif
$19.50
See first source cited.

You then quoted the whole entire first chapter of the accompanying "book."

Source: http://www.creationism.org/patten/PattenBiblFlood/PattenBiblFlood01.htm

Which I then line by line pointed out the absurdities and fallacies associated with his arguments.

What appears to be the case is the following.

You want us to buy a 1-hour video from the 60s, that costs $19.95. You haven't been able to replicated any of the arguments within the video... which leads me to believe you likely do not own it either. The best you could do was of course copy and pasting chapter 1 of Donald W. Patten's book, which was also written in the 60's (1966), which happened to be irrelevant the the questions we have been asking.

Which is simply this.

Provide just one argument from the video, as it is utterly ABSURD to request people who believe it to be a waste of time to invest not only an hour of their time, but $19.95 of their hard earned cash.

Do you not see how ridiculous this is?
 
Maybe a library has it and besides i asked Barbarian if he thought Noah's flood was a crank catastrophy.. maybe you could answer for him do you think it was a crank catastrophy?

tob
 
tob writes:
I've debated you in the past when i asked how Jesus fit into your doctrine of evolution then you made a statement.. i quoted the statement exactly as you had written it.. and then you denied ever hearing such a statement and you were the one that made the statement..

Well, let's take a look at that...

tob writes:
How does Jesus fit into evolution

Barbarian replies:
The Inventor. It's His creation, after all.

tob asks:
are you saying he is a part of the evolutionary process?

Barbarian replies:
Just noting that without God, there would be no evolutionary process.
(Found here)
Evolution Is Religion--Not Science


Now, let's see what tob makes of that:

tob replies:
He being a man i agree but is he a part of the evolutionary process according to evolutionary biologists..
Evolution Is Religion--Not Science

Barbarian asks:
Hmm... I read the literature a lot, and I never saw that. Do you have a checkable source for that story?

tog writes:
now maybe you can answer the rest of the question: is he a part of the evolutionary process according to evolutionary biologists?
Evolution Is Religion--Not Science

tog writes:
Only because you haven't answered my original question, and you probably never will.. "is he a part of the evolutionary process according to evolutionary biologists" is a yes or no question.
Evolution Is Religion--Not Science

Barbarian observes:
You've tried to make it as vague as possible, and then demand a yes or a no. Depends on the biologist. All biologists without a religious axe to grind are evolutionary biologists, of course, but if you're asking if evolutionary theory says Jesus is the author of evolution, the answer is "No." Science can't answer questions about the supernatural. If you're asking whether believers who happen to be biologists accept Jesus as the author of nature, including evolution, the answer is "Yes." It's not that hard.

You got your answer, but you were trying to turn it into a "are you still beating your wife" game. The fact that Jesus is God and therefore the author of evolution remains.
Evolution Is Religion--Not Science

Did you really think you wouldn't get called out on that? C'mon. You tried a loaded question, and I unloaded it for you.

adding anything else at this time would be mocking God and his creation which I'm beginning to think you enjoy

Contrary to what Martin Luther wrote, you cannot serve God by bending the truth. Next time, think.
 
Maybe a library has it and besides i asked Barbarian if he thought Noah's flood was a crank catastrophy.. maybe you could answer for him do you think it was a crank catastrophy?

Whether it was an allegory, or whether it really was a regional flood thousands of years ago, we don't know for sure. There is some evidence for both ideas. But the idea that Noah's flood can be explained by turning the solar system into a game of cosmic pinball, that's just crazy. And highly insulting to your Creator.
 
Yes we do know for sure

tob

*edit: Oops' the queen of heaven is from the Old Testament in Babylon
 
Last edited:

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