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elijah23
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When we obey Jesus, our lives become a paradise.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Elijah674
Guest
Must mean 'spiritually' ? Rom. 8:1
Heb. 12
[4] Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
[5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
[6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
[7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
[8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
[9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
--Elijah
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elijah23
Guest
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV
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elijah23
Guest
You must know from first-hand experience that when you repent, your troubles disappear.
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elijah23
Guest
When our consciences are clear, tribulation doesn't bother us.
handy
Member
hmmm.... I don't know about that... I have a pretty clear conscience... but I still don't like facing down tribulation. That I do so is more because of God's faithfulness rather than my clear conscience.
Even Jesus asked if it were possible to let the cup pass from Him.
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elijah23
Guest
I try to keep my conscience clear. It is an indescribably beautiful life, though I do face challenges, and sometimes I slip up.
handy
Member
You have an interesting perspective, Elijah.... One that's not common, either with the folks in the Scriptures or the here and now...
I'd like to hear testimony about how you view Paradise in the midst of this world's tribulations...
The indescribable beauty when facing the terminal illness of a parent, misscarriages and the news that one will never bear children, a chronic illness, loss of job...
How did you help your own kids cope when they came home with news that a good friend committed suicide, or another was shot in the chest and will never walk again... or facing being bullied, struggling with learning disabilities, worried that a friend is pregnant or having another friend cutting herself?
How about explaining that this life is a Paradise to a son who is not living with his birthmother and has a sister and brother he has never seen because his birthmother was addicted to drugs and couldn't clean herself up enough to take care of her kids and the state took all the children away and placed them for adoption in different homes and the adoptive parents of the brother and sister choose not to include him in their lives.
To me, telling my kids (or even myself) that this life is an indescribably beautiful Paradise in the face of the tribulations that we've endured or are even currently enduring is a lot like telling someone who needs food and clothing, "Go in peace, be warmed, be filled."
At any rate, I would be interested in hearing from you how you work this perspective out in your life, in the face of serious trials and tribulations...
I guess it's obvious I don't find this life a Paradise. I don't believe that Jesus ever taught that it was either. But, I do hold fast to the fact that enduring the trials of this life will bring the reward of a crown of life. I also find this life to be a life of both peace and of joy... even in the face of the trials and tribulations faced here.
I believe, because the bible teaches, Paradise to be an actual place... a place where God dwells and where the tree of Life is. Not here on this earth, or if it is, it's inaccessible to us. I don't believe that Paradise is taught to be a "state of mind" or a spiritualized conception.
I'd like to hear testimony about how you view Paradise in the midst of this world's tribulations...
The indescribable beauty when facing the terminal illness of a parent, misscarriages and the news that one will never bear children, a chronic illness, loss of job...
How did you help your own kids cope when they came home with news that a good friend committed suicide, or another was shot in the chest and will never walk again... or facing being bullied, struggling with learning disabilities, worried that a friend is pregnant or having another friend cutting herself?
How about explaining that this life is a Paradise to a son who is not living with his birthmother and has a sister and brother he has never seen because his birthmother was addicted to drugs and couldn't clean herself up enough to take care of her kids and the state took all the children away and placed them for adoption in different homes and the adoptive parents of the brother and sister choose not to include him in their lives.
To me, telling my kids (or even myself) that this life is an indescribably beautiful Paradise in the face of the tribulations that we've endured or are even currently enduring is a lot like telling someone who needs food and clothing, "Go in peace, be warmed, be filled."
At any rate, I would be interested in hearing from you how you work this perspective out in your life, in the face of serious trials and tribulations...
I guess it's obvious I don't find this life a Paradise. I don't believe that Jesus ever taught that it was either. But, I do hold fast to the fact that enduring the trials of this life will bring the reward of a crown of life. I also find this life to be a life of both peace and of joy... even in the face of the trials and tribulations faced here.
I believe, because the bible teaches, Paradise to be an actual place... a place where God dwells and where the tree of Life is. Not here on this earth, or if it is, it's inaccessible to us. I don't believe that Paradise is taught to be a "state of mind" or a spiritualized conception.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The church definetly does not know about this truth (speaking in a broad generalization, of course). Somewhere along the line it became sinful to have the manifest blessings of God in your life...let alone purposely pursue it. This is not just about houses and cars and spouses. It's about enjoying this life with the abundance that Christ died to give us.
Surely we will have trouble and persecutions in this life, but David talks about enjoying the goodness of God in the presence of his enemies, not in the absence of them:
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies." (Psalm 23:5 NIV)
Paul talks about living in the life of the Spirit when we walk in the Spirit and being in death when we walk according to the flesh. God's gives his abundant life when we are kind, gentle, forgiving, compassionate, self-controlled, peaceable, longsuffering, etc. I know no quicker way to chase away the life of the Spirit than to entertain envy, jealousy, pride, anger, hatred, etc. All of us are sure we are what we are supposed to be but all you have to do is look at how you treat your spouse and your children to know if you are really all these things. It's so easy to rationalize bad things like contempt and anger with the people closest to us, blind to the fact that they are supposed to have our uncondtional love, too, but who get it the least and upon whom we heap the greatest demands for fulfillment.
Your life and your outlook on life will be a hellish, Spiritless existence if you do not obey God according to the fruit of the Spirit with all people, not just the ones we naturally respect and fear, and seek his good life no matter what. Christ was not lying when he said he came to give life more abundantly. And just like the children of Israel, the way into that abundance is...obedience. Disobedience will cause you to quickly perish from the Land of God's promised abundance'. God is not a liar.
It's rather pathetic how this message has been suppressed in the church today. Faith that does not change your behavior is death in this life. Only faith that changes who you are brings life to this life.
Paradise may not be the best word to describe what Elijah is talking about, but he's not wrong in what he's saying. And don't miss the fact that he is openly acknowledging trouble and failure. Sometimes you gotta tread the sands of the desert before you willingly enter into God's promise of abundance and blessing. It's then you will accept no less in life and you will wait on God in ernest prayer in faith for that which he said he will give...to those who obey him according to the fruit of the Spirit.
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handy
Member
Perhaps it is a matter of verbage, Jethro...
What you're saying makes perfect sense... the life abundant, the peace and joy that comes from knowing that God is always faithful, will always bring one through, will always meet one's needs...
When we use the word Paradise to describe this world, though... It sends the wrong message. First of all because the Scriptures do teach us that Paradise is an actual place, it's not a state of mind, nor a spiritual concept... It's the place where the tree of Life stands. Secondly, because Paradise, for those whose hope is in the Lord, is the place of ultimate rest and a sin free existence... it truly is beautiful.
This world has beauty and much of it... but if we weave into the gospel that Paradise is here and now... I believe it could lead to shipwreck of faith when the trials and tribulations of this world do come, as they surely will.
Far better to simply state, as you did, that being in Christ does bring one life and an abundant one at that... even if the loss of a job means the paycheck might not make it through the month, or one must deal with the terminal illness of a loved one.
This is far more a truthful and solid representation of what being in Christ is.
What you're saying makes perfect sense... the life abundant, the peace and joy that comes from knowing that God is always faithful, will always bring one through, will always meet one's needs...
When we use the word Paradise to describe this world, though... It sends the wrong message. First of all because the Scriptures do teach us that Paradise is an actual place, it's not a state of mind, nor a spiritual concept... It's the place where the tree of Life stands. Secondly, because Paradise, for those whose hope is in the Lord, is the place of ultimate rest and a sin free existence... it truly is beautiful.
This world has beauty and much of it... but if we weave into the gospel that Paradise is here and now... I believe it could lead to shipwreck of faith when the trials and tribulations of this world do come, as they surely will.
Far better to simply state, as you did, that being in Christ does bring one life and an abundant one at that... even if the loss of a job means the paycheck might not make it through the month, or one must deal with the terminal illness of a loved one.
This is far more a truthful and solid representation of what being in Christ is.
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elijah23
Guest
First of all, Jesus, I believe, was saying the same thing that I am saying. Repent of your sin and you will have paradise:
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV
It doesn’t matter how horrible a situation we find ourselves in, or a loved one finds himself in. The Lord steps in and brings peace and contentment to all those who turn to him. Remember what Jesus said about faith.
CalledToServe
Member
You are quite correct on the first part because Paradise is a real place. It's not the place where you think that it is. This goes back to the Old Testament in talking about Sheol. Sheol is divided into two sections: Paradise and a form of hell for the sinners. When we all face final judgment and God recreates the world Sheol will be remade into the hell presented in the Book of Revelations while the earth gets remade into Paradise. This school of thought comes from the time of Christ in the Second Temple period.
Christ teaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand is in reference to the ceremonial law of sacrifices. Since Jesus is the sacrificial lamb for the final atonement of all sins. This goes hand in hand with His teaching that He would rebuild the temple in three days. The temple is comprised of three main sections; the courtyard, the tabernacle, and the Holy of Holies where God's spirit resided. When Christ died the veil between the Holy of Holies and the tabernacle ripped meaning the God's spirit no longer resided there. God's spirit now resides inside of every Christian since our bodies have become the new Holy of Holies. When Christ taught that the kingdom of heaven is at hand He literally meant that God's spirit would no longer reside inside of a building, but inside of Christians.
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elijah23
Guest
No, Jesus meant that if you repent, you will find peace and contentment now.
CalledToServe
Member
He did teach that, but that is not what that particular scripture deals with. Jesus preached to the Jews and the context of that verse deals specifically with the ceremonial worship of God as practiced at that time. He was letting the Jews know that the Messiah had come and the end of the sacrificial system was near. His preaching was the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.
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elijah23
Guest
When you repent, your troubles vanish.
Or maybe I should say, when you repent, you are better able to hear the Lord as he guides you through your life.
CalledToServe
Member
The second one is more accurate since when we pick up Christ's cross we will be hated and despised. However, we have a perfect peace of mind and spirit knowing that we have Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
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Elijah674
Guest
So far so good.
Thinking that the dieing Christ felt good is not what is recorded! True Agape Love is a moral Law Abiding [ETERNAL] PRINCIPLE, not emotion or based on feelings or excitement as perhaps most think? And it is in obeying His Eternal Covenant, that is the LAW OF LIBERTY! James 2:8-12--Elijah
Christ_empowered
Member
My life has improved significantly since my conversion. Part of this is trying (with many failures, btw) to apply Christian morality. Christian morality isn't easy, but it makes life--real, true, abundant life--possible. In addition, God has worked in my life to make things better for me.
Personal stuff aside, I think part of the Christian message is that your life on earth will never be paradise. One reason Heaven appeals to me--and so many others--is that it satisfies a longing in the human heart for a place we all know must exist, a place where wrongs are righted and everything is perfect and we can live in perfect peace. This yearning carries with it an acknowledgment that life here on earth is far from perfect. I believe this is one reason the "Mystery Cults" of pagan Greece were so popular; they acknowledged wordly and human imperfection and offered salvation and peace. Then we got the real deal--Jesus and eternal life.
Personal stuff aside, I think part of the Christian message is that your life on earth will never be paradise. One reason Heaven appeals to me--and so many others--is that it satisfies a longing in the human heart for a place we all know must exist, a place where wrongs are righted and everything is perfect and we can live in perfect peace. This yearning carries with it an acknowledgment that life here on earth is far from perfect. I believe this is one reason the "Mystery Cults" of pagan Greece were so popular; they acknowledged wordly and human imperfection and offered salvation and peace. Then we got the real deal--Jesus and eternal life.