Particular Redemption/Limited Atonement

[DivineNames]

I think that I have to bite the bullet and "confess" that, indeed, the act of choosing to accept the gift of salvation is a "smart", or "wise", "meritorious" act (I am not sure if you mean "good" in the sense of morally good or in the sense of "just plain smart"). I am willing to admit that Fred's decision to accept Christ at least has something to do with his own "wisdom", although not necessarily with his moral goodness.

OK. I can't think of an objection.

 

[JM]

This thread has gotten way off topic and I hope this brings us back on track.

In the unity of the Spirit, both the Westminster and London Baptist Confessions state: ". . . wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam, are redeemed in Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only." (Ch. III, sec. 6)

Christ did not die to make salvation possible, Christ died with a purpose, that purpose is determined by almighty God and not the lowly sinner. The Arminian adds to the work of Christ on the cross by saying you need faith FIRST and that’s determined by YOU. False. That’s a work and no one is saved by works but by Grace. No matter which way you slice it the Arminian is forced to add to the work of Christ on the cross. The doctrinal statement has been made, lets see if SCRIPTURE supports the idea.

The intent and accomplished act:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. [intent]

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. [Even on the practical level, if God has the power to accomphish a tack, it wouldn’t make sense for God to not follow thru.]

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us [intent], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Gal 1:3, 4 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners [intent]; of whom I am chief.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us [intent], that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people [intent], zealous of good works.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God [intent], being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:[intent]

Results of the Atonement:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled [result], we shall be saved by his life.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ [result], and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Eph 2:15, 16 Having abolished in his flesh [result of the atonement] the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:[result]

Col 1:21, 22 And you, that were [past tense] sometime alienated and enemies [we were enemies of God] in your mind by wicked works, YET NOW hath he reconciled. [result] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [result of the atonement]

What Christ secured with the atonement:

Rom 3:24, 25 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [results of the atonement is security, without works we are saved by Grace] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [results]

Rom 5:8, 9 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, [security] we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us [past tense, we are secure because of the atonement] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Col 1:13, 14 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: [the atonement secures our redemption]

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, HAVING OBTAINED [past tense] eternal redemption for us.

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree [past tense, it’s been done, the atonement secured our salvation], that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Quote: “Passages which represent the Lord Jesus Christ, in all that He did and suffered for His people, as fulfilling the terms of a gracious compact or arrangement which He had entered into with His heavenly Father before the foundation of the world.â€Â

Jesus sent on a mission: Joh 6:35-40 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We see what the death of Christ actually did, now who was the death of our Lord for…for His sheep. Not every sheep, for His sheep:

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:14-18 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Joh 10:24-29 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, [plain indictment] because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. [Christ gives us the reason they do not believe, because they are not His] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Christ the High Priest: Joh 17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. [the atonement has been done and is now being applied to the elect of God] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. [if Christ is praying for only those the Father gives Him, the work of the atonement has to be completed. if God the Father doesn’t hear the prayer of God the Son, then we have dissention in the Godhead] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

All of the believers spiritual blessings can be traced back to the eternal decree of God: Eph 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world [any way you want to slice it, God chose some in Christ but not all], that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [and this is how God did His choosing and way] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: [God purpose, not ours] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [all things, that means the good, the bad and the ugly] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

+++The Arminian likes to quote passages with the words world, all men and nations. But other passages speak of Christ’s work as definite, meaning there was intent to same a particular people.

Many, not ALL:

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall [as a fact] save his people from their sins. [Christ’s death did just that]

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. [not all]

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. [this passage shows the New Covenant was made with a people, and that people now have remission of sins based upon the work of the Cross/shed blood]

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. [the blood of Christ was shed, it’s a done deal, it’s not universal]

Eph 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it [Christ died to purchase the Church, not the world]; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Rom 8:32-34 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all [who’s the all Paul is speaking of….look down a few verses], how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 2:17 “sins of His people†[not all people]
Hebrews 3:1 “who share in a heavenly callingâ€Â

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [just read it]

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many [not all but many]; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In closing, Christ’s death bought a people, not every single person in the world. Salvation isn’t universal, that wouldn’t make sense to have a universal atonement and not plan to offer it to everyone.

Yada, yada, yada.

JM

 

[Drew]

JM has posted John 6:35-40 under the heading "What Christ secured with the atonement" Although he does not come right out and say it, the implication is that this text supports the notion of an "elect". And I certainly understand how it could be read that way - "All that the Father gives me will come.....all that He has given me will be raised up at the last day". Now clearly all humans are not raised up to heaven. So, in order for this clearly false conclusion to be avoided, it might seem that this text is saying that only a subset of all people are "pre-selected to be raised".

I think this conclusion is not really supported by an analysis of this text. The following is shamelessly based on argument I read from Rev. Steve Witzki (whoever he is). It is by no means a copy - I have co-opted the idea but tried to express it in my own words (although I do steal a sentence or 2 from him, I think). We start with the text of Jonh 6:37-40 as rendered in the NASB:

37. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

38. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

What exactly does “all that†in v37 and v. 39 refer to?

Calvinists will identify the "all that" in verses 37 and 39 as "those whom, in his great love, he elected long ago to save." We shall see that this is not the only possible conclusion when we consider the possible meanings of the "all that" found in verse 39 in light of the the content of verse 40, taking into account some significant structural similarities between v 39 and v. 40. Note the parallel structure of verses 39 and 40 – they each have 3 clauses that map almost perfectly from one verse to the other. They both have the same A-B-C structure.

First, we should note the connective word "for" in verse 40. This establishes a logical connection between these two verses, suggesting an act of clarification on Jesus’ behalf. The "all that" in verse 39 whom the Father "has given" to Jesus is none other than "everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him" as per verse 40. You can probably see where I am going. If we allow verse 40 to be used as a clarifying referent to disambiguate the "all that" in verse 39, the 2 verses taken together can be seen to be consistent with a reading that "all who freely come to believe in Jesus" are given to the Son by the Father. The people that are "given" are given in their state of already having freely accepted Jesus offer of salvation.

So the Calvinist is indeed correct in asserting, "only some have been given by the Father to the Son." However, the "some" that the Father has selected to be given to the Son are none other than the set of all believers – and verse 40 tells us that that this set is everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him (and this can be a free will act). Therefore, certain persons are not selected and then given to Jesus in order to become believers, as Calvinist's assert, people are given to Jesus because they are already believers.

Now a legitimate rejoinder from the Calvinist camp might be to ask what exactly is accomplished by God giving people to Jesus who have already believed in Jesus? Aren't they obviously given to Jesus precisely for the reason of Him procuring their salvation? This question deserves some kind of answer which I hope to take a shot at in another post.

The above is not intended to be a completed attempt to refute a Calvinist reading of this text. To keep post length under control, I have just given a flavour.

 

[JM]

JM has posted John 6:35-40 under the heading "What Christ secured with the atonement" Although he does not come right out and say it, the implication is that this text supports the notion of an "elect". And I certainly understand how it could be read that way - "All that the Father gives me will come.....all that He has given me will be raised up at the last day". Now clearly all humans are not raised up to heaven. So, in order for this clearly false conclusion to be avoided, it might seem that this text is saying that only a subset of all people are "pre-selected to be raised".

You're getting off topic, as most Arminians tend to do, please stay on topic. The implication is "...all that He has given me will be raised up." You're adding to the statements made and fighting an argument of your own invention. Again, please stay on topic and stop with the red herrings. If all are called then the atonement is made for all, that was the point of the quote. Sorry you missed that point, but you seem to miss many points being made. :


2 Questions

Did Christ die for the sins of every single person in the world?

Does faith come by hearing?

If you answer "yes" to the first question, and "yes" to the second question, can you explain why God would supply a "way" of salvation for every single person in the world [in Christ] and not provide the means [preaching of the Gospel] for every single person in the world to accept or reject the Gospel offer?

Drew, it's getting to the point where you're being intellectually dishonest and not responding to what is actually being posted. Many times I've asked questions and you give glib responses if you respond at all, I can understand how this allows you to feel safe by firing shots from the ivory tower you've built. Some of what I've read in your posts seems very, very familier, I hope you're giving credit where credit is due? Either way, you're not interested in honest intellectual convo on this topic but defending your own theology at any cost.

See you around.

jm

 

[Drew]

Drew, it's getting to the point where you're being intellectually dishonest and not responding to what is actually being posted. Many times I've asked questions and you give glib responses if you respond at all, I can understand how this allows you to feel safe by firing shots from the ivory tower you've built. Some of what I've read in your posts seems very, very familier, I hope you're giving credit where credit is due? Either way, you're not interested in honest intellectual convo on this topic but defending your own theology at any cost.

In regard to these accusations, I will let the content of my posts on this and other topics speak on my behalf. One thing I will say: I have never (repeat NEVER) used someone else's ideas without giving credit. I have, on 2 occasions only, used someone else's thoughts and given credit both times. I'm clean, dude - the rest is all from my own brain.....

 

[Drew]

You're getting off topic, as most Arminians tend to do, please stay on topic. The implication is "...all that He has given me will be raised up." You're adding to the statements made and fighting an argument of your own invention. Again, please stay on topic and stop with the red herrings. If all are called then the atonement is made for all, that was the point of the quote.

All right. Since I have trouble understanding the point of many of your posts, I will simply state the following: My post about John 6:37-40 had the following purpose: To show how the text is consistent with the following hypotheses:

- there is no elect (no special subset of all humans pre-destined for salvation)
- all people are "drawn" by God
- Salvation involves an act of free will acceptance on the part of the person saved.
- All people who freely accept the gift will indeed be raised up on the last day
- Not all people will make this choice

To keep the post brief, I did not explicitly address each of these items. So perhaps it is most helpful if readers consider this as a post that is not trying to respond to anything specific in JMs post.

Sorry you missed that point, but you seem to miss many points being made. :

I would be interested in what the other readers think about this - do you think I am missing points?

 

[JM]

Should I post the pm's they send me? :-D

Nahhhhhh, it's personal mail.

 

[Drew]

2 Questions

Did Christ die for the sins of every single person in the world?

Does faith come by hearing?

If you answer "yes" to the first question, and "yes" to the second question, can you explain why God would supply a "way" of salvation for every single person in the world [in Christ] and not provide the means [preaching of the Gospel] for every single person in the world to accept or reject the Gospel offer?

First question: Yes
Second question: Yes, with some qualifications

To clarify my answer to the second question: There are some people who never hear the gospel. In accordance with Romans 1:20 ("For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse"}, I believe that God gives every person the chance to repent and turn to Him, even if they never hear the name Jesus Christ. So there is both a way and a means for each person to accept the gospel.

 

[Drew]

Should I post the pm's they send me? :-D

Nahhhhhh, it's personal mail.

I am willing to let my posts speak for themselves regarding matters of precision, clarity, focus, and sound argument.

 

[JM]

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

If the above is true, then Drew's logic false. Quote: "How did God know which sins to place on Christ since we hadn't committed them yet when Jesus was crucified?"

 

[Solo]

So far, JM's posts sound much more Biblical and closer to the truth than Drew's posts. JM has my vote. :D

 

[Drew]

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

If the above is true, then Drew's logic false. Quote: "How did God know which sins to place on Christ since we hadn't committed them yet when Jesus was crucified?"

This text from 1 Peter works perfectly even if we haven't committed certain sins yet and even if God does not know about all the sins that we will indeed commit. Here is an important point: While I am sympathetic to open theism, my version of it is not all that open - I still think God knows that all men will sin.

The gift of salvation has the characteristic of being like a blank check. The nature of the gift is such that it is "open-ended" to cover any sins that I might commit.

I can give my friend a blank check in anticipation of his future debts. He may not yet have fallen into any particular debt, but I know that he will fall into some debt, the check is there in case he does). So my check is efficacious for debts he has yet to fall into.

A key point: The act of writing the blank check fully suffices for debts yet to be fallen into. So I have really already paid for my friends debt - it is a completed act, just like Jesus' work is a completed act. The act of bearing my friend's debt lies in the writing of the blank check, it does not lie in the cashing of the check by the recipient. The writing of the check is the act of irreversible commitment (even if the dollar figures are not known in advance) - it is the act where I incur loss. No matter what actual debt my friend incurs, there is no escape for me- I will pay the debt.

Returning to the specifics of salvation: Jesus dies on the cross 2000 years ago. Even if He does not know all the sins that will be committed by men through the centuries to follow, He does know that all will sin (my version of "open theism" is not "wide open") and that even 1 sin separates us from God. So he pays the price at Calvary. The cross does indeed "seal the deal", it is a finished act in the sense that future sins, whatever they might turn out to be, are washed away by the gift of the unblemished Christ.

There is nothing in this texts rules out an open-ended gift. The text works perfectly well with such an interpretation. I simply do not see how this text demands that God knows the exact list of sins - like a blank check, the gift of salvation is open-ended enough to accomodate the future.

I think that there are other arguments to be made, but I will stop here at present.

Now let's play fair here. I have given an account, I have actually strung some words of explanation together.

You have clamed that my logic is false unless I think 1 Peter 2:4 is false (which I do not).

Now lets hear your account, your explanation, of the flaw in my logic.

 

[Solo]

My signature says it all. :wink:

If it wasn't so sad that some do not believe that God knows it all, while they insinuate that they do, I'd laugh.

Amazing! :o

 

[DivineNames]

Drew, it's getting to the point where you're being intellectually dishonest and not responding to what is actually being posted... you're not interested in honest intellectual convo on this topic but defending your own theology at any cost.

What? You can't follow simple argument. You don't properly respond to points made.

 

[Solo]

Drew, it's getting to the point where you're being intellectually dishonest and not responding to what is actually being posted... you're not interested in honest intellectual convo on this topic but defending your own theology at any cost.

What? You can't follow simple argument. You don't properly respond to points made.

A few hundred more times and he will be evened up with Drew and You. :D

 

[DivineNames]

So far, JM's posts sound much more Biblical and closer to the truth than Drew's posts. JM has my vote. :D

So Jesus never wanted everyone saved then... OK

 

[Solo]

So far, JM's posts sound much more Biblical and closer to the truth than Drew's posts. JM has my vote. :D

So Jesus never wanted everyone saved then... OK

Only the ones that God the Father chooses. Hope you're on the list. :wink:

 

[DivineNames]

A few hundred more times and he will be evened up with Drew and You. :D

I looked you up on- Fundies Say the Darndest Things
http://www.fstdt.com/

I will give a couple of your quotes-

Science has a horrible track record with regard to the Word of God who is the author of this world. The science that contradicts the Bible is suspect and should be revisited, the science that agrees with the Bible is true.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 0&start=30

[Defending the virgin birth]

"I can afford to be narrow-minded because I'm right. You are wrong."

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... &start=180

Classic! :-D


Don't you just love loony fundamentalist Christians?

 

[DivineNames]

So Jesus never wanted everyone saved then... OK

Only the ones that God the Father chooses. Hope you're on the list. :wink:

Excellent. Me being non-Christian is simply because I am not part of God's elect. You can't blame it on me!

 

[Solo]

A few hundred more times and he will be evened up with Drew and You. :D

I looked you up on- Fundies Say the Darndest Things
http://www.fstdt.com/

I will give a couple of your quotes-

Science has a horrible track record with regard to the Word of God who is the author of this world. The science that contradicts the Bible is suspect and should be revisited, the science that agrees with the Bible is true.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 0&start=30

[Defending the virgin birth]

"I can afford to be narrow-minded because I'm right. You are wrong."

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... &start=180

Classic! :-D


Don't you just love loony fundamentalist Christians?

Your accusation of believers being "loony fundamentalist Christians" whom you reject will be a memory that you will always regret as you hear their words over and over again.