Penal Substitutionary Atonement

[st_worm2]

Audio & Transcript

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/simply-put/penal-substitutionary-atonement

 

[St. Helens]

Ligonier always puts out good stuff. I get their Tabletalk magazine at my church.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings st_worm2,

Audio & Transcript

The following is the introduction:
"In order for our sin to be dealt with, someone must face the penalty our sin deserves."
I reject this concept.

The following is part of the Transcript:
"The substitutionary nature of Jesus’ atonement has been contested by some theologians. And yet it is all over the pages of Scripture. Not in isolated verses, but woven deeply into the fabric of the entire sacrificial system of the old covenant. And then affirmed, as we’ve seen, by the New Testament authors."

I reject the concept of punishing the innocent and allowing the guilty to go free which is part of "Penal Substitutionary Atonement". I believe that Jesus died as our Representative and this is what the Scriptures clearly teach Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[st_worm2]

Greetings st_worm2,

The following is the introduction:
"In order for our sin to be dealt with, someone must face the penalty our sin deserves."
I reject this concept.

The following is part of the Transcript:
"The substitutionary nature of Jesus’ atonement has been contested by some theologians. And yet it is all over the pages of Scripture. Not in isolated verses, but woven deeply into the fabric of the entire sacrificial system of the old covenant. And then affirmed, as we’ve seen, by the New Testament authors."

I reject the concept of punishing the innocent and allowing the guilty to go free which is part of "Penal Substitutionary Atonement". I believe that Jesus died as our Representative and this is what the Scriptures clearly teach Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hello Trevor, thank you for your reply. I know that this is a controversial subject, so I'd like to hear a bit more from you about it (how you see it, that is), particularly about the basis for the atonement and how/why it allows the guilty to be set free in the system or concept that you hold to.

Thanks again

God bless you!!

--David

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Greetings st_worm2,

The following is the introduction:
"In order for our sin to be dealt with, someone must face the penalty our sin deserves."
I reject this concept.

The following is part of the Transcript:
"The substitutionary nature of Jesus’ atonement has been contested by some theologians. And yet it is all over the pages of Scripture. Not in isolated verses, but woven deeply into the fabric of the entire sacrificial system of the old covenant. And then affirmed, as we’ve seen, by the New Testament authors."

I reject the concept of punishing the innocent and allowing the guilty to go free which is part of "Penal Substitutionary Atonement". I believe that Jesus died as our Representative and this is what the Scriptures clearly teach Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

I agree. People take scripture sush as,

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” Gal.3:13 NKJV

and turn it upside down. Paul is citing Deu.21:23, but that statute is only according to law if,

a man has committed a sin deserving of deat Deu.21:22 NKJV

Paul is saying our Savior allowed himself to be defamed, had his true characted maligned. Those who testified bore false witness against him so he taught,

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Mt.5:11


being defamed, we entrea 1Cor.4:13 NKJV

even if some are disobedient to the word, they will be won over without a word by the way you live, 1Pet.31 NET

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again st_worm2,

I know that this is a controversial subject, so I'd like to hear a bit more from you about it (how you see it, that is), particularly about the basis for the atonement and how/why it allows the guilty to be set free in the system or concept that you hold to.

I am a bit reticent to get too involved as I endorse quite a few different teachings by comparison to most, and some of these form the basis of my understanding of the Atonement. I will mention only two for starters, and this may demonstrate that we would need to present an overview of many teachings as each of these affect what we could accept as far as the subject of the Atonement.

I believe that man is mortal and the descendants of Adam are subject to death as pronounced in Genesis 3:19, and also see Romans 5:12 and Romans 6:23.

I believe that Jesus is a human, a descendant of Adam through Mary and he inherited our sin prone nature. I reject that he is a God-man, or God the Son, but I believe that God the Father was his father in the conception/birth process.

Building on these two concepts, Jesus was mortal, subject to death, and of our nature, having the lusts of the flesh. He overcame these lusts by his understanding and meditation on the Word of God, and he never sinned. While God was just in subjecting all of mankind to death and the return to dust Genesis 3:19, Romans 5:12, 6:23, Jesus had never sinned. As a result, and because of the Father's love and fellowship with His Son, the grave could not hold him, and God raised him from the tomb, gave him immortal life and exalted him.

When we acknowledge all that was acomplished in Jesus, the reversal of the sentence of death within himself, and seek to identify with his death and resurrection by an affectionate faith and baptism in water, God will forgive us our sins for his sake and on his behalf, and we wait for the crown of life when Jesus returns 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

The above may be sufficient to establish a brief framework of ideas, and there are many other aspects and many Scriptures that could be discussed.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[st_worm2]

Hello again TrevorL, yes, what you said above has several 'wrinkles' that I was not expecting

I'd still like to take a shot at discussing the atonement from your POV if you're still game, but only if it's a discussion about the Atonement, and one that is based on the Bible alone. Please let me know if that's ok with you or not (if not, I certainly understand).

Now, as far as your other stated beliefs go, I'm guess'n that they and you are LDS. Is that correct

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again David (st_worm2)

yes, what you said above has several 'wrinkles' that I was not expecting

Yes, I have a different perspective on a number of Bible teachings, and this alters our respective view of the Atonement.

I'd still like to take a shot at discussing the atonement from your POV if you're still game, but only if it's a discussion about the Atonement, and one that is based on the Bible alone. Please let me know if that's ok with you or not (if not, I certainly understand).

Yes, if you are willing to discuss what the Bible actually teaches. I will only mention other Bible teachings when they affect my understanding of the Atonement.

Now, as far as your other stated beliefs go, I'm guess'n that they and you are LDS. Is that correct

You seem to be very unaware of LDS teachings, as the two doctrinal items that I mentioned are completely against LDS teachings. LDS believe in immortal souls, while I believe man is mortal and does not possess an immortal soul and that Jesus is a human and did not pre-exist, and I am not sure if they believe that Jesus is also God.

Building on these two concepts, Jesus was mortal, subject to death, and of our nature, having the lusts of the flesh. He overcame these lusts by his understanding and meditation on the Word of God, and he never sinned. While God was just in subjecting all of mankind to death and the return to dust Genesis 3:19, Romans 5:12, 6:23, Jesus had never sinned. As a result, and because of the Father's love and fellowship with His Son, the grave could not hold him, and God raised him from the tomb, gave him immortal life and exalted him.

When we acknowledge all that was acomplished in Jesus, the reversal of the sentence of death within himself, and seek to identify with his death and resurrection by an affectionate faith and baptism in water, God will forgive us our sins for his sake and on his behalf, and we wait for the crown of life when Jesus returns 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

You have not commented on the above, whether you agree or disagree. Building on what I have stated above, Jesus by his dedicated life, his fullness of the moral character of God and the fact that he never sinned, when he had suffered and died, he was dead for three days. Then God raised him from the dead and granted him immortal life.

Here was a subjection to God's righteous decree that not only Adam, but his descendants would inherit the effects of Adam's sin. In voluntarily submitting to this death, Jesus acknowledged God's righteousness in enforcing this environment on all of mankind, but having been subjected to these effects a new circumstance was revealed, that the original reason for submitting man to death, that all of Adam's descendants when they grow to youth and older sooner or later sin, was now no longer valid in the circumstance of Jesus. God's mercy and righteousness had now been joined together and necessitated the resurrection of Jesus and God's love for His Son moved God the Father to raise Jesus the Son of God from the grave.

The way of salvation for Jesus was thus opened and Jesus himself was the first to be saved from or out of death. God and Jesus are willing to share this salvation with those who have an affectionate faith in the future Kingdom and faith in what was accomplished in the death and resurrection of Jesus when they acknowledge what has been accomplished and identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus by baptism in water Acts 8:5-6,12. We unite with him in his death and resurrection Romans 6:1-8. He is our captain, we are his disciples, we follow him through death and resurrection, both by baptism and then by a crucified life and resurrection, and then by real death and then resurrection at the return of Jesus Galatians 2:20, 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

This salvation is NOT by God being angry with our sins and beating Jesus and crucifying him, but because of God's mercy he is willing to forgive us our sins. Jesus is our representative not our substitute.

The above is only one theme in the subject of the Atonement. A few other things that could be considered are what is the purpose of suffering, and the lessons of the Book of Job could be considered. Part of this is the question as to why Jesus suffered, and why such a horrendous death. Also a few important Scriptures could be considered such as Romans 3:19-31 - is this teaching Substitution? Also various other verses in Romans, I could list a few but wait for you to suggest them, and Romans 7 specifically, and Romans 8. I consider Romans 8:3 is a key verse and how we understand each word or phrase affects our whole view of the Atonement. Is Romans 8:3 teaching Substitution and for that matter Penal Substitution? I cannot reconcile such a concept with Romans 8:3 but I will allow you to attempt such an explanation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Hello Trevor, thank you for your reply. I know that this is a controversial subject, so I'd like to hear a bit more from you about it (how you see it, that is), particularly about the basis for the atonement and how/why it allows the guilty to be set free in the system or concept that you hold to.

Thanks again

God bless you!!

--David

I’m surprised it’s controversial. Penal substitutionary atonement is so plainly obvious in Scripture. Anything less does a serious injustice to the work on the cross.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Well here's my view. Penal substitution is heresy that has infected congregations world wide.

What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

God plainly says, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Eze.18:2-3

The chapter is so plain it doesm't need explanation.

 

[st_worm2]

Yes, if you are willing to discuss what the Bible actually teaches. I will only mention other Bible teachings when they affect my understanding of the Atonement.

Hello Trevor, it sounds like we have a go then

You seem to be very unaware of LDS teachings, as the two doctrinal items that I mentioned are completely against LDS teachings. LDS believe in immortal souls, while I believe man is mortal and does not possess an immortal soul and that Jesus is a human and did not pre-exist, and I am not sure if they believe that Jesus is also God.

The reason that I thought you may be Mormon came from something that you said in post #6, which was:

I believe that Jesus is a human, a descendant of Adam through Mary and he inherited our sin prone nature. I reject that he is a God-man, or God the Son, but I believe that God the Father was his father in the conception/birth process.​

LDS teaching concerning the Fall is that it (sin) was required for procreation (for our progenitors and for us). Also, unlike Christianity (which holds to the virgin conception/birth of Jesus), LDS teaching holds that God had sex with Mary to cause her pregnancy (and that seems to be what you are saying above, as well, yes?).

They also, like you, believe that Jesus is God's Son (and like you, not Divine, at least not while he was here on Earth .. then again, they believe that God the Father was once a mortal man, just like we are, before He became God). And yes, the LDS believe that all of us are uncreated, that our souls are from everlasting, and that we are sent here by our "celestial parents" as humans (with the hope of one day becoming a god or a goddess of our very own planet and solar system).

I hope that clears things up a bit (?)

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Free]

Well here's my view. Penal substitution is heresy that has infected congregations world wide.

That’s a very strong accusation that shouldn’t be used lightly, especially when substitutionary atonement is at the core of what happened on the cross, regardless of whatever other beliefs one might have about it. It’s what makes the most sense of all the biblical revelation.

 

[st_worm2]

You have not commented on the above, whether you agree or disagree. Building on what I have stated above, Jesus by his dedicated life, his fullness of the moral character of God and the fact that he never sinned, when he had suffered and died, he was dead for three days. Then God raised him from the dead and granted him immortal life.

In regard to the above, you said: "Jesus was mortal, subject to death, and of our nature, having the lusts of the flesh. He overcame these lusts by his understanding and meditation on the Word of God, and he never sinned."

Since the Apostle makes it clear for us (~after~ the Lord's life, death, resurrection and ascension) that NONE are good, that NONE seek after God, "not even one", and that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God .. Romans 3:10-12, 23, how is it that Jesus (who you believe was born with the same fallen nature that we have, in Adam) escaped the fate that befell the rest of us (the entirety of Adam's progeny, that is)

MANY have a great understanding of the Bible, have memorized it and meditate upon it, moment by moment, but ALL are sinners in need of a Divine Savior nevertheless. Why, in your estimation, was Jesus the only one among us to be unaffected (if His nature was just as fallen as ours are)

Finally, while we know that Jesus faced many temptations, but how do you know that He had the same kind of lusts that we do and/or that He was able to overcome them somehow

This is already getting pretty long, so I'll stop here and wait to hear back from you before moving on.

--David

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That’s a very strong accusation that shouldn’t be used lightly, especially when substitutionary atonement is at the core of what happened on the cross, regardless of whatever other beliefs one might have about it. It’s what makes the most sense of all the biblical revelation.

I agree it's a strong accusation. God says in that chapter no father or son in Israel will be put to death for another mans sins and that statement is immutable because he swore that by himself. Jesus was a son of Israel.

 

[st_worm2]

..substitutionary atonement is at the core of what happened on the cross.........................

Hello Free, I agree with you, and I believe that the Bible does, as well (of course), both the OT and the New. For instance,

Isaiah 53​

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, ​

And our sorrows He carried; ​

Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, ​

Smitten of God, and afflicted. ​

5 But He was pierced through ~for our~ transgressions, ​

He was crushed for our iniquities; ​

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, ​

And by His scourging we are healed. ​

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, ​

Each of us has turned to his own way; ​

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all ​

To fall on Him. ​

​

1 Peter 2 ​

24 He Himself bore our sins in His body on the Cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. ​

God bless you!!

--David

2 Corinthians 5​

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. ​

.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Greetings st_worm2,

The following is the introduction:
"In order for our sin to be dealt with, someone must face the penalty our sin deserves."
I reject this concept.

The following is part of the Transcript:
"The substitutionary nature of Jesus’ atonement has been contested by some theologians. And yet it is all over the pages of Scripture. Not in isolated verses, but woven deeply into the fabric of the entire sacrificial system of the old covenant. And then affirmed, as we’ve seen, by the New Testament authors."

I reject the concept of punishing the innocent and allowing the guilty to go free which is part of "Penal Substitutionary Atonement". I believe that Jesus died as our Representative and this is what the Scriptures clearly teach Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

What is the difference between "substitute" and "representative" ?
Both act on the behalf of another.

 

[Free]

Hello Free, I agree with you, and I believe that the Bible does, as well (of course), both the OT and the New. For instance,

Isaiah 53​

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, ​

And our sorrows He carried; ​

Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, ​

Smitten of God, and afflicted. ​

5 But He was pierced through ~for our~ transgressions, ​

He was crushed for our iniquities; ​

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, ​

And by His scourging we are healed. ​

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, ​

Each of us has turned to his own way; ​

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all ​

To fall on Him. ​

​

1 Peter 2 ​

24 He Himself bore our sins in His body on the Cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. ​

God bless you!!

--David

2 Corinthians 5​

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. ​

.

Yes, there are numerous passages that explicitly state that he died for our sins, on our behalf, to appease the wrath of God. It literally couldn’t be cleaner, in both the OT and NT. Not to mention the OT sacrificial system and the Passover, and what they obviously point to, as seen in passages such as Heb 9 and 10.

 

[st_worm2]

I agree it's a strong accusation. God says in that chapter no father or son in Israel will be put to death for another mans sins and that statement is immutable because he swore that by himself. Jesus was a son of Israel.

Hello Journeyman, I suppose the question then is this, was the Lord Jesus Christ "put to death" in the sense that that passage in Ezekiel means, or did He CHOOSE to lay His life down in order to save us, because of His great love for us, His bride

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - as the Lord Jesus Himself told us,

John 15​

13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. ​

.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

When the Bible speaks of Christ dying for our sins, it means if God had not endured wrongdoing against himself, if he didn't tolerate sinful behavior against himself, sinners would be condemned.

Hello Journeyman, I suppose the question then is this, was the Lord Jesus Christ "put to death" in the sense that that passage in Ezekiel means, or did He CHOOSE to lay His life down in order to save us, because of His great love for us, His bride

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - as the Lord Jesus Himself told us,

John 15​

13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. ​

.

Good question and the answer is both. Jesus violuntarily chose mot to comdemn people who did things to him that the law would have executed them for. Just like our Father. Wow Theres a "revelation!!!

 

[journeymanisnothing]

For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. Rom.15:3

He was reproached by sinners. Not by our Father.