People with mental health problems

[Classik]

I think people with mental health problems (the people born with these problems) do not need repentance at all. They will always make heaven. Some are unconscious of almost everything happening around them. I don't think they should be held guilty of man's sinful nature.


Do you preach salvation to a mentally unsound man (crazy)? Looks like a waste of time.


We can only pray for them and show them love

 

[Classik]

I think people with mental health problems (the people born with these problems) do not need repentance at all. They will always make heaven. Some are unconscious of almost everything happening around them. I don't think they should be held guilty of man's sinful nature.


Do you preach salvation to a mentally unsound man (crazy)? Looks like a waste of time.


We can only pray for them and show them love

How about people who were born normal? Some in their days took hard drugs and developed mental problems. I think these people are guilty.

 

[stovebolts]

Everyone needs repentance...

If you study the OT Sacrifical Rituals, you will find that the worshiper offers for sins committed in ignorance. But it is done with a repentant heart once the worshiper is made aware of his offence.

The sins we commit that we are unaware of are already covered until they are revealed, but once we are made aware of them, we are called into repentance. To not hold the mentally unstable to this accord is not a biblical approach.

Everybody has the option to choose right from wrong and everyone has their struggles. And God judges on an individual basis.

Do you preach salvation to a mentally unsound man (crazy)? Looks like a waste of time.

We preach the truth. Christianity is as much about how one lives today as it is our eternal fate. To preach salvation is to give somebody hope, strength and courage in all aspects of their lives. Part of salvation is where the rubber meets the road. It's not about having the right doctrines or answering questions with the right answers. It's about daily living and how we deal with those struggles and challenges on a daily basis because what we do and how we do it matters to God. To keep this way of life and keep our hope and joy from the mentally unstable is a shame. Jesus didn't come for the righteous...

 

[Classik]

And once the consciousness isn't there would that situation be equal to a state of sinlessness?

 

[stovebolts]

And once the consciousness isn't there would that situation be equal to a state of sinlessness?

This is an area I don't want to get into generalities. Please be specific. If one is not conscious, then I would assume one is in a vegetative state. A coma perhaps? Sin is something we do or think.

What do the scriptures say?

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man: but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.

 

[Classik]

And once the consciousness isn't there would that situation be equal to a state of sinlessness?

I'm not talking about a comatose state:D I'm talking about instability.


At times

 

[Classik]

And most mentally unstable men are just like kids (in comparison) - they don't know what they're doing.

 

[stovebolts]

We are born in a state of rebellion... Yet there is something to be said for the way a child responds...

Never give excuse for bad behavior. Again, salvation is as much about today as it is about eternity. After all, today is part of eternity, and it matters to God. If Today did not matter to God, he would not have said, Psalms 95:7b-8 Today if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

 

[phantom309]

I think what Classik is referring to are the ones that even though awake,have no real consciousness of them selves,their environment,etc.I guess a good example would be someone in a catatonic state,or as you referenced a vegetable.

I would agree that if someone had a prior conscious state that they would have had to get straight during the window of opportunity prior to the incident that caused whatever random illness or insanity.

For the other people who,through whatever random occurrence,are truly and completely incoherently insane from birth or shortly after..I dont think they have anything to worry about.Someone who doesnt have the mental ability to comprehend life around them has no responsibility to meet a moral demand,in my opinion.It just wouldnt make sense for a man to be born incapable of higher thought,yet be responsible for such a decision.

 

[Classik]

I think what Classik is referring to are the ones that even though awake,have no real consciousness of them selves,their environment,etc.I guess a good example would be someone in a catatonic state,or as you referenced a vegetable.

I would agree that if someone had a prior conscious state that they would have had to get straight during the window of opportunity prior to the incident that caused whatever random illness or insanity.

For the other people who,through whatever random occurrence,are truly and completely incoherently insane from birth or shortly after..I dont think they have anything to worry about.Someone who doesnt have the mental ability to comprehend life around them has no responsibility to meet a moral demand,in my opinion.It just wouldnt make sense for a man to be born incapable of higher thought,yet be responsible for such a decision.

Good

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For the other people who,through whatever random occurrence,are truly and completely incoherently insane from birth or shortly after..I dont think they have anything to worry about.Someone who doesnt have the mental ability to comprehend life around them has no responsibility to meet a moral demand,in my opinion.It just wouldnt make sense for a man to be born incapable of higher thought,yet be responsible for such a decision

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Ja, danke
That's actually my intent

 

[stovebolts]

I agree with your first line Phantom, but I'm not so sure about this.

For the other people who,through whatever random occurrence,are truly and completely incoherently insane from birth or shortly after..I dont think they have anything to worry about.Someone who doesnt have the mental ability to comprehend life around them has no responsibility to meet a moral demand,in my opinion.It just wouldnt make sense for a man to be born incapable of higher thought,yet be responsible for such a decision.

At the core Phantom, what we are talking about are the basic tenants of right and wrong and we all are accountable for the choices we make to one degree or the other. Will one who is insane not be held accountable for his actions if he kills an innocent man? Would we not demand his restraint and restitution? Would we not demand moral conformity upon such an individual regardless of their mental capacity?

 

[Classik]

I agree with your first line Phantom, but I'm not so sure about this.



At the core Phantom, what we are talking about are the basic tenants of right and wrong and we all are accountable for the choices we make to one degree or the other. Will one who is insane not be held accountable for his actions if he kills an innocent man? Would we not demand his restraint and restitution? Would we not demand moral conformity upon such an individual regardless of their mental capacity?

Such violent ones are NEVER left alone with other people.

What they did they did ignorantly, and I doubt if God counts it as a sin.

 

[stovebolts]

Such violent ones are NEVER left alone with other people.

What they did they did ignorantly, and I doubt if God counts it as a sin.

The question is not if God counts sin as sin. Make no mistake, God calls sin what it is... Sin. The question is, how does God deal with that sin and at what point is one accountable for that sin. I would say that when one realizes that something is a sin, yet continues to do that which he knows is a sin, then one is accountable for that sin. Thus, repentance is not null and void.

So the question becomes... At what point is a person comprehensive of their sinfulness? I would say at the point they realize they are hurting other people by their actions and don't try to change their behavior.

You know what really gets me Classik? Most people think that they do things because of the way they feel. In reality, if you don't like the way you feel, then stop behaving in a way that causes you to feel that way. If you want to change how you feel, then DO something different because what we DO often dictates how we FEEL. Yet we give excuse for poor behavior.. no wonder we've got an epidemic of "bi-polar" disorder. Give me a break. The only one who wins with that type of thinking is the government and the pharmaceutical companies.

 

[jasoncran]

im not a big fan of pyschology, but i have been around ptsd, depression and bi-polar to know who might have these.

i know a lady who has been healed of bp, she cried in church and went on meds, she claims healing is off her meds. but i can deal by her behavior that she isnt healed totally. she has this tendency of memory loss that is similiar to alzhemiers at times.

my wife has that.

 

[Mike]

In Mark 1, Acts 8, and Acts 16 among other Scripture it is said that we need to recognize our need for a Savior, believe, repent and be baptized. We call that "the believer's baptism". Someone who's been born and lives with the inability to respond to the revelation Given him by doing these things could be held blameless just as an infant or toddler would, IMO. Someone who is functioning at the level of a very young child even when he is an adult would seem to have the same unaccountability to me.

This is assuming he has no ability to discern the Will of God. Romans 1:20 talks about responding to revelations we perceive. If someone cannot perceive even the revelation of creation around them, it's hard to hold that he would be held accountable.

 

[Classik]

Mike, thanks alot. This is one of your brilliant replies.

 

[phantom309]

At the core Phantom, what we are talking about are the basic tenants of right and wrong and we all are accountable for the choices we make to one degree or the other. Will one who is insane not be held accountable for his actions if he kills an innocent man? Would we not demand his restraint and restitution? Would we not demand moral conformity upon such an individual regardless of their mental capacity?

Believe me,I fully understand that all are accountable for sins committed..and that the vast majority of "mental illnesses" these days are just a smokescreen for behavioral problems and poor decision making.

Conditions such as bi-polar,PTSD and so forth,while classified as a mental illness,do not render a person incapable of making the correct moral decisions.The lines may be blurred a bit more,or perhaps the temptation greater for doing the wrong thing but in the end they have the ability to do right regardless of the details involved.

What I was referring to are those out there with a condition that renders them totally incoherent,fully and completely nuts.

I believe I see the point that youre making..that regardless of mental condition sin is sin and one must pay for that sin.Lets say that a complete nutjob..totally and genuinely incoherent,etc..flips out and kills someone.Yes,murder is a sin and under normal circumstances I believe that person would be judged by God for that.On that we agree.I cannot,however,agree that if a person who suffered a condition that rendered them completely incoherent and unable to comprehend things around them would be judged as if they fully knew what they were doing.If one is not aware of morality,unable to learn about God or even aware of themselves in some cases,I just cant fathom a rightful blame or coming judgement.

Thankfully there are few cases that mentally incapacitate a person in such a way.

Even if their condition was such,of course they should still be confined and cared for in a manner that prevented them from doing harm to others or themselves.

 

[Classik]

What I was referring to are those out there with a condition that renders them totally incoherent,fully and completely nuts.

Thanks again for this. Such people exist; we all are aware.
I doubt if God would condemn them. He wouldn't, from my own POV. They are just like kids who know nothing!


It's a different issue with people who perhaps took drugs and developed mental problems. First, they did that to themselves. God might find them guilty if the kill, I can't tell.

And how about our down syndromes? They are sinners (by nature) and in the real sense they are no sinners, my POV. I think there are some who are conscious of what they do, the majority of 'em aren't.

There are people born deaf and dumb and blind. 3 in 1. I believe they are heaven-worthy - God knows how to judge them