Perseverance or Eternal Security

[Merry Menagerie]

I believe in the Holy Spirit perservering for us and through us. Thank Goodness...I reckon if it were left up to me I'd fail big time. It gives me much comfort and security to know that my preservation isn't left up to me but rather up to God - that way I know that I am eternally secure because God never fails.

 

[Klee shay]

I myself have perceived the Gentiles and the Israelites separately; but having taken part in another discussion involving the matter of adoption, I have decided that we become neither Jew nor Gentile - but rather the children of God through faith.

In heaven there will be no nation proceeding the children of God; only the name of the Son who guided their way. :D

 

[JM]

Re: something for consideration

it seems to me that i recall reading something about "the lambs book of life" and having your name written there and that it was possible to have your name "blotted out." That would certainly give a prudent man reason to reflect on the implications don't you think?

I seem to recall that as well, but it has little or nothing to do with the new creation we are IN Christ Jesus. If I recall, the Church as the Body of Christ isn't in the book of Revelations, at least after chp. 4...Christ is the head of the Body Col 1:18, we are adopted into the family of God as God's sons. Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5 We get Heavenly citizenship. Ephesians 2:19, we become a new creature 2 Corinthians 5:17, we are reconciled to God Romans 5:10, we are Sanctified 1 Corinthians 6:1, we are baptized into Christ's body 1 Corinthians 12:13 (so where is the book of life in these passages?), we are indwelt by Christ John 14:23, we have peace with God Philippians 4:7, quote: We have our name recorded in the book of life in heaven. Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Philippians 4:3 And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. We are seated with Christ in heavenly places Ephesians 2:6, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit Ephesians 1:13, etc.

 

[wavy]

I myself have perceived the Gentiles and the Israelites separately; but having taken part in another discussion involving the matter of adoption, I have decided that we become neither Jew nor Gentile - but rather the children of God through faith.

We'll, see the Grace old/new testament thread.

In heaven there will be no nation proceeding the children of God; only the name of the Son who guided their way.

There's only one over all nation in heaven (the kingdom of heaven on earth) considered one nation with all the characteristics of Israel (12 foundations, 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes, 12 messengers, 12 apostles for each tribe, 12 pearls, 2 trees for both houses yeilding twelve fruits,) overall, YHWH Melech-Yisrael (Yahweh King of Israel).

So indeed, it is Israel that overcomes in the end (and that is what Yisra-El means: to overcome/prevail with El).

JM is right. The "church" is not mentioned in Revelation because the church does not exist. Not in Revelation chapters 1-4 or anywhere before this (except with an evil name).

 

[JM]

This quote fits the topic...

I Was

• A Lost Sinner (Rom.5:8)
  Dead in Sin (Eph.2:1)
  Ungodly (Rom.5:6)
  Unrighteous (Rom.1:18)
  Cursed (Gal.3:10)
  Condemned (Rom.5:18)
  W/out Christ (Eph.2:12)
  W/out Hope (Eph.2:12)
  Without God (Eph.2:12)
  Enemies of God (Rom.5:10)
  Indwelt/FalseSpirit (Eph2:2)
  Paid w/ Death (Rom.6:23) (Rev.20:15)

I Am

• Saved by Grace (Eph.2:8)
  Dead to Sin Rom.(6:2,11)
  Holy (Eph.1:4)
  Righteous (2 Cor.5:21)
  Accepted (Eph.1:6)
  Without Blame (Eph.1:4)
  Indwelt by Christ (Col.1:27)
  Hope in Heaven (Col.1:5)
  Indwelt by the Father (Eph.4:6)
  Peace with God (Rom.5:1)
  Indwelt by the holy Spirit (1 Cor.3:16)
  Eternnal Life (Rom.6:23) (1 Tim.6:12)

 

[Klee shay]

There's only one over all nation in heaven (the kingdom of heaven on earth) considered one nation with all the characteristics of Israel (12 foundations, 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes, 12 messengers, 12 apostles for each tribe, 12 pearls, 2 trees for both houses yeilding twelve fruits,) overall, YHWH Melech-Yisrael (Yahweh King of Israel).

So indeed, it is Israel that overcomes in the end (and that is what Yisra-El means: to overcome/prevail with El).

One question wavy, was Jesus ever testified as being the King of the Jews? I'm being seriously curious here because I don't know the answer myself. I know the title was inscribed on his cross by those who conspired to kill him, I just don't recall if anyone testified him as such.

 

[wavy]

One question wavy, was Jesus ever testified as being the King of the Jews? I'm being seriously curious here because I don't know the answer myself. I know the title was inscribed on his cross by those who conspired to kill him, I just don't recall if anyone testified him as such.

The question becomes where should I start??!!! LoL.

There's hundreds of places. But I expect you are looking for an NT passage:

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

 

[Klee shay]

Thanks for supplying that NT scripture. I'm looking into this issue further, but I'm not completely certain that Jesus is the Israel or the King, spoken of by men. I think he is more; but a lot of scripture has been written from the perspective of men and their religious understanding of the day.

Jesus was also said to be a liar and a breaker of Moses laws, but that did not make it so because someone made the claim. This is why I'm looking for celestial testimonies. Thus far, I cannot see Jesus testifying himself as being the King of Israel.

The reply Jesus gave Nathanael was; "...Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these." John 1:50

His reply to Nathanael's claims was the same kind of reply he gave Pilate. It wasn't an admission or a denial. "Believest thou", Jesus replies to Nathanael and to Pilate for the charges made against him, Jesus says "...Thou sayest," Matthew 27:11

It's almost as if he is not there to answer to the whims of mankind, but to inspire belief beyond the religious limitations placed on his Father's name. We all know he is the Son of God because God testified it from the heavens and so did the Holy Spirit once he was baptised by John. These are direct testimonies from a celestial source. While mankind's faith is the vessel which carries his body after his death; has that reality of who he was changed? Was he really the King of Israel or did God testify he was His Son?

I'm sure you have more scriptures and I would genuinely be interested in reading them. I do recall somewhere in the OT God promising David that from his seed would come an heir to establish God's kingdom. Was that a direct testimony however that his kingdom would be Israel?

My Spirit rejects this vestige of King as it's an Earthly vessel. Israel is an earthly embodiment and although Christ came in the flesh he is no longer part of this world. God's kingdom will be established in heaven and it will be his children who are to be his heirs. To my knowledge this is the only language Christ has used to label God's chosen - they are his children as Christ is his child.

I could be wrong, I'm always polishing up my understanding of the Lord with his guidance. I look at your perspective as being an opportunity to share something God wants me to know, but my Spirit continues to reject any earthly vestiges attributed to Christ. I am at the door and knocking but I can't proceed until I'm handed the key...and we all know who holds the key. :wink:

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Yes there is a scripture prophecying of Christ being the King and it's a prophecy that came forth.

I do agree with you though, I do believe that all those 'earthly' things that is spoken of in the bible and the 'earthly' things that Jesus is described as are things, I believe, to appease us as humans. In the spirit realm there is neither Jew nor Greek, male for female - etc. Yet us humans see Jesus as both male and a Jew but in the spirit realm he's neither!

The bible describes him as Israel, King of Kings, King of the Jews, the Lion of Judah, the Lamb etc etc. but all these things are earthly things - is he really a lamb? Like a real lamb in heaven? Is he really a lion? No he's not, he's more than that. But in order for us to understand the things of the spiritual they needed to be brought down to our level. God came down to our level and spoke of the things of heaven in parables so that our earthly minds can understand. But our spirits know a lot more and understand a whole heck of a lot more than our minds do.

Is this what you are trying to say? Or have I got it all wrong? :roll:

 

[Klee shay]

Yeah, I think you're right there. The message was delivered at our level and not the spirit realm which is what God is. I found a passage in the NT which verfies this also:

"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father." John 16:25

So Jesus is giving his disciples the order in which everything will come to pass. First he spoke in proverbs (worldly) and then he will show them the Father plainly (spiritually). I guess this is also the Christain process as well. First we read the proverbs and the prophecies to find out what we must believe - then through the Spirit we are shown the Father plainly.

I discovered another passage which touches on this as well:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

Therein lies our salvation; the words that were spoken by Jesus not the prophecies which fortold of his coming.

Although I must say I'm still learning and this discussion has given me the opportunity to explore these issues further. The only firm conclusion I have reached thus far is that Jesus is life. Perhaps nothing else of my understanding matters beyond that point. :wink:

 

[wavy]

Well, Nathaniel's testimony was true:

John 1:47 Yahshua saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Was he really the King of Israel or did God testify he was His Son?

Ezekiel 37:28 And the gentiles shall know that I YHWH do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith YHWH the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHWH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Psalm 89:18 For YHWH is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Garbriel is a heavenly messenger who stands in the presence of Yahweh (Luke 1:19), not a man. This is heaven's view. He is both Bar-Elohim (son of god) and King of Israel.

I could go on for a long time...

 

[Klee shay]

What version of the bible are you taking your passages from? My Ezekiel 37:28 says; "And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sacntify Israel, when my sancturary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

"In the midst of", means his sanctuary will be there but this dialogue the Lord uses in Ezekiel does not rule out his sanctuary being in the midst of somewhere else either? God defined Israel to the heathens so they would know God - this evolves however after the death of Christ into finding sanctuary in Christ to all nations.

Ezekiel 37:28 speaks the truth. God's santurary shall and will be in their midst for evermore, but it was also extended to the Gentiles as we remember. "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Acts 10:34-35

This of course came after the Lord's death and resurrection and only then. What you point to in the scriptures wavy is the truth emphatically, however that's not where the truth ends. It is where the definition of what is to come begins. It has to begin somewhere and where it ends is with Christ for all mankind.

Although I do see where you're coming from. I don't disagree but I'm looking towards the hope and the promise which comes from the risen Christ; and the Lord's truth is expanding evermore to accommodate those who possess faith in Him. If I am wrong then I pray the Lord will enlighten me onto the path of truth. :D

 

[wavy]

What version of the bible are you taking your passages from? My Ezekiel 37:28 says; "And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sacntify Israel, when my sancturary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

KJV. The word is "goyim" translated "nations", "heathen" and "gentiles" in the Hebrew. I was just making this clear. So I changed the English word.

"Heathen" is an English term. It is not supported from the Hebrew word "goyim" which simply means "nations".

"Gentiles" come from the Latin word "gentilus", which, if I remember correctly, does not generally mean nations but is more like "pagan".

"Nations" is the literal translation. "Gentiles" in the NT is improper. "Nations" is more accurate.

"In the midst of", means his sanctuary will be there but this dialogue the Lord uses in Ezekiel does not rule out his sanctuary being in the midst of somewhere else either?

Well, this has to be proven with scripture, not speculated upon.

Ezekiel 37:28 speaks the truth. God's santurary shall and will be in their midst for evermore, but it was also extended to the Gentiles as we remember. "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Acts 10:34-35

Exactly, and if the gentiles see Israel and realize that they overcome and are Yahweh's true nation, then that means these are pagans. Those who fear Yahweh in the nations are considered part of Israel.

Isaiah 14:1 For YHWH will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

It has to begin somewhere and where it ends is with Christ for all mankind.

All who accept Messiah, but not every nation. One nation has been chosen. Individuals from the nations can become part of this chosen nation, but the nations from where they come from are not chosen.

If I am wrong then I pray the Lord will enlighten me onto the path of truth. :D

This should be all our ultimate goals.

 

[Klee shay]

Well, this has to be proven with scripture, not speculated upon.

Agreed but all reasoning of scripture is speculation. Jesus himself spoke the truth but the Jews wanted proof and the proof he provided they did not believe. His words were speculation unto them before he was crucified and resurrected - only then did his words become truth in the eyes of all nations; Jew and Gentile.

Therefore any reasoning of the scriptures of what happens to those saved will only become truth on the Lord's return. You and I both search the scriptures where our Spirit and personal belief leads us; but it will only be truly revealed on the last day. On that last day those who loved the lord and sought the truth (even if they failed in discerning it correctly) will be raised up as Jesus was raised up by the Father.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

All who accept Messiah, but not every nation. One nation has been chosen. Individuals from the nations can become part of this chosen nation, but the nations from where they come from are not chosen.

Yes I agree, however, Israel is not the chosen Nation which will bring life everlasting. It is the vessel in which Jesus came to offer his life a ransome for many. We do not become Israel we become one with Christ. Speculation perhaps, I'm still learning.

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master-builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth there-upon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" 1 Corinthians 3:8-16

I wanted to illustrate that both you and I are working; even if in different areas. The temple of God dwells within us; there is no other outward temple callled by any other worldly name. The power of faith has been removed from the hands of man and it has been written in their hearts, so that when we build we build from the foundation of Jesus Christ, not any other worldly vestige.

"Let no man decieve himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men, For all things are your's; Wether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephias, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." 1 Corinthians 3:18-23

Perhaps we should become fools together so the Lord can make us wise. Both our knowledge combined is foolishness unto God and we're only learning what path he wishes to take us on. I can see no lies in your comments, I can only see your earnesty for truth. So keep searching as I will, what we must build upon the foundation - but let it not deviate from Christ, otherwise we shall be destroyed by the fire. :D